The Immaculate Conception Error!

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

????
I had never heard of this David Duke, so I googled him. And now I am more confused than ever.
I have to say, if I were black, I think I'd be getting pretty tired of every person who thinks they have a "cause" trying to compare it with the epic battle still being fought to this day for human rights by my people. Women's rights, gay rights...and now, Catholic rights? Really?
Honey, the poor black single Momma trying to work two jobs to support her kids is not interested in your argument with Protestants. She'd like to know when your church is going to get up off some of that treasure and do something for people like her and her children.
Now, I volunteer with a local food bank...I see women like her every week. And the people I work with are Baptists and Methodists...nary a Catholic in the bunch. So, please, don't tell me about your heart for the poor hungry black child...

There are so many causes you could get involved in. Abortion, for instance. 1,500,000 helpless babies being murdered in the U.S. every year...
Yes, and black lives are important too...you think they are still needing recognition? Well, get out there and make some noise, Iakov!
Women's rights...women still do not get paid as much as men, and it is still harder for them to break into certain fields.
You could always come and help Baptists and Methodists fight hunger...
Or, hey...how 'bout "Save the Whales"??

you are in Alabama Barrd, there are only 2 Catholics in the entire state :lol:

 

[Barrd]

Love the Barrd!! Telling it like it is!!!

Salvation is a gift from the Lord, but it is a process, imo.

But pick up the obituaries and you wouldn't know that. Everyone is going to heaven, after all, they said a prayer once in 1972. Lived like the devil the rest of their life though, but it matters not because they prayed once. I'm being facetious but you get the drift.

Yes, Spiritus, I "get the drift".

You do know that not all Protestants think that all that is necessary is to say a prayer once and that's all there is to it. That prayer is one we need to repeat daily...maybe even several times a day. And I'm not being facetious at all.

Someone told me once that salvation is the work of a moment...but sanctification takes a lifetime of dedication...

 

[Barrd]

you are in Alabama Barrd, there are only 2 Catholics in the entire state :lol:

Good point, Spiritus...

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

Yes, I would say that bearing God in her womb is a very big deal. But why add the "maybe"?


I've never quite figured out how giving up sex is honoring the Lord? Didn't God create them male and female, and didn't He instruct them to "go forth and multiply"?
There are some people who seem to think that anything that gives pleasure must be sinful. Is it a sin to enjoy a hot fudge sundae? Is it a sin to enjoy the beauty of the sky at night? Or the feel of cool water sliding against your skin on a hot summer's day? Is it a sin to enjoy the laughter of a child? Or the comfort of your own bed after a long day?
Is it a sin for a man and his wife to take pleasure in each other?


Spiritus, my sweet brother in Christ, I do love you. Your innocence touches my jaded old heart.
Do you really think that people were not having sex in 1st century Judea?


Do they sin?
Yes, they do.
Are they held accountable for their sin?
That is the real question, isn't it?
And, of course, the answer is "NO!"...

Added maybe because I'm talking to a beloved protestant friend who thinks this catholic teaching is all hogwash lol

Not a sin to enjoy sex with your spouse. It's beautiful so long as the gift isn't abused with unnatural acts or substances which eliminate the possibilty of creation.

I'm simply saying, if you are told by God that you are about to give birth to God, that may change your outlook on life and how you live life?

Ever had plans to do something but then abruptly changed course because something drastic happened in life? I know I have.

I disagree with you that babies and retarded people(God bless them) sin, I think a person has to have full knowledge of sin for it to be a sin(mortal anyway). John 15:22 Jesus seems to imply that knowledge of what you are doing is a integral part of sin.

 

[KingJ]

Maybe we ought to stop worrying about what other people believe, and pay more attention to working out our own salvation in fear and trembling...

Nothing wrong discussing what others believe. We just need to tone it down to a discussion and not an attack. Which is forgiveably difficult on the interweb.

 

[FHII]

For the record I don't hate Catholics but I don't agree with their doctrine. I also object to their bloody and wicked history. Both of these objections protestants are guilty of as well.

Many protestant churches probably agree with the majority of catholuc doctrine. I agree with some Catholic doctrine as well. I'll give you an unpopular example: leadership. Their is a looser but parallel leadership in the NT when compared to the Catholic Church. They weren't called popes, cardinals or fathers in the bible, but were called apostles, prophets, pastors evangelists and teachers. How some of those powers changed hands isn't always biblical.

As for the history... the inquisition happened. On both sides. Little known fact in American history is that there was a mass grave found outside of Philadelphia of dozens of Catholics. It was covered up and isn't talked about much...

But todays catholics and protestants shouldn't be held accountable for the crimes of their earlier church fathers. Yet, I'd like to see at least one Catholic or protestant acknowledge it was an evil crime and I'd like to see an apology from the churches involved. I heard the catholic church did once... but never saw it.

As for doctrines.. I've spiken out against them and will do the same at some point again.

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

Yes, Spiritus, I "get the drift".

You do know that not all Protestants think that all that is necessary is to say a prayer once and that's all there is to it. That prayer is one we need to repeat daily...maybe even several times a day. And I'm not being facetious at all.

Someone told me once that salvation is the work of a moment...but sanctification takes a lifetime of dedication...

Too many of them subscribe to Calvin's doctrine of OSAS. In fact, probably most on the protestant side believe that.

But yes, I know there are some like yourself who do not.

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

For the record I don't hate Catholics but I don't agree with their doctrine. I also object to their bloody and wicked history. Both of these objections protestants are guilty of as well.

Many protestant churches probably agree with the majority of catholuc doctrine. I agree with some Catholic doctrine as well. I'll give you an unpopular example: leadership. Their is a looser but parallel leadership in the NT when compared to the Catholic Church. They weren't called popes, cardinals or fathers in the bible, but were called apostles, prophets, pastors evangelists and teachers. How some of those powers changed hands isn't always biblical.

As for the history... the inquisition happened. On both sides. Little known fact in American history is that there was a mass grave found outside of Philadelphia of dozens of Catholics. It was covered up and isn't talked about much...

But todays catholics and protestants shouldn't be held accountable for the crimes of their earlier church fathers. Yet, I'd like to see at least one Catholic or protestant acknowledge it was an evil crime and I'd like to see an apology from the churches involved. I heard the catholic church did once... but never saw it.

As for doctrines.. I've spiken out against them and will do the same at some point again.

Totally understandable. We respectfully disagree on subjects and live to debate or chat about other things tomorrow.

Both sides have acted childish in the past. Because the Catholic church had so much power and influence in those days, I think they come across looking worse as the ones with the power need to exercise it accordingly and with humility, not by strong arming.

 

[Barrd]

Added maybe because I'm talking to a protestant who thinks this catholic teaching is all hogwash lol

Oh, come on, Spiritus. Every denomination has it's share of hogwash.

Not a sin to enjoy sex with your spouse. It's beautiful so long as the gift isn't abused with unnatural acts or substances which eliminate the possibilty of creation.

Of course it isn't a sin. Mary could have had a normal life with her husband, including having sex with him, and still been blameless.

I'm simply saying, if you are told by God that you are about to give birth to God, that may change your outlook on life and how you live life?

Mary's first response to the angel who brought her this news was "how can this be? I'm a virgin." There was nothing said about she'd live her life as a virgin.

Ever had plans to do something but then abruptly changed course because something drastic happened in life? I know I have.

You are projecting, here. Now, I can't say what I would have done in Mary's place...the notion never occurred to me before. But I don't think not having sex with my husband would have entered my head.

I disagree with you that babies and retarded people(God bless them) sin, I think a person has to have full knowledge of sin for it to be a sin(mortal anyway). John 15:22 Jesus seems to imply that knowledge of what you are doing is a integral part of sin.

So when a retarded person regularly steals candy from the store, knowing it's wrong, giggling because he thinks he 'got away' with something, is he sinning? He's got the mind of a little kid...he knows he's being "naughty"...but is it a sin?
Well, what is it that makes a sin so...uh...sinful? Isn't it the hurt that it causes?
Is the store owner harmed by the retarded person stealing candy from him. Well, yes, he is. He loses the profit on that candy. Is it a major problem? Probably not. But it does make a difference over the course of a year...
Did the retarded person sin? Technically, yes. He knew what he was doing was wrong. He had "full knowledge" as you put it.
But I don't think he's culpable, because he's not able to process why what he is doing is "naughty".

See, it isn't all black and white.

 

[Barrd]

Totally understandable. We respectfully disagree on subjects and live to debate or chat about other things tomorrow.

And nobody has to be put on a rack or get burned at the stake. Much nicer this way...friendlier...
Don't you think, Spiritus?

Both sides have acted childish in the past. Because the Catholic church had so much power and influence in those days, I think they come across looking worse as the ones with the power need to exercise it accordingly and with humility, not by strong arming.

Both sides need to remember that where much is given, much will also be required.
It is totally refreshing to meet a Catholic who realizes that the violence of the past was wrong.

 

[FHII]

Both sides have acted childish in the past. Because the Catholic church had so much power and influence in those days, I think they come across looking worse as the ones with the power need to exercise it accordingly and with humility, not by strong arming.

I understand what you are saying, but I think its an understatement. Hideous, haneious and evil are more accurate than the the term childish. Its a touchy subject for me because I've researched it and I suspect my family may have fled europe because of religious wars. Maybe not, but I study the time lines of historical events and the immigration patterns of my ancestors.

I blame Catholics, but in reality, a counter attack happened and the inquisition happened longer than most history books say.

 

[FHII]

I understand what you are saying, but I think its an understatement. Hideous, haneious and evil are more accurate than the the term childish. Its a touchy subject for me because I've researched it and I suspect my family may have fled europe because of religious wars. Maybe not, but I study the time lines of historical events and the immigration patterns of my ancestors.

I blame Catholics, but in reality, a counter attack happened and the inquisition happened longer than most history books say.

Edit: let me clarify. I said I blame catholics, but both caths and prods acted ungodly.

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

Oh, come on, Spiritus. Every denomination has it's share of hogwash.


Of course it isn't a sin. Mary could have had a normal life with her husband, including having sex with him, and still been blameless.


Mary's first response to the angel who brought her this news was "how can this be? I'm a virgin." There was nothing said about she'd live her life as a virgin.

I know, but the bible also never says 2+2= 4. But we know it is. Not everything was written down and spelled out perfectly for us. That's obviously a fundamental difference between our respective sides. We agree to disagree


You are projecting, here. Now, I can't say what I would have done in Mary's place...the notion never occurred to me before. But I don't think not having sex with my husband would have entered my head.

It's a very reasonable question and relevant to the conversation.

So when a retarded person regularly steals candy from the store, knowing it's wrong, giggling because he thinks he 'got away' with something, is he sinning? He's got the mind of a little kid...he knows he's being "naughty"...but is it a sin?
Well, what is it that makes a sin so...uh...sinful? Isn't it the hurt that it causes?
Is the store owner harmed by the retarded person stealing candy from him. Well, yes, he is. He loses the profit on that candy. Is it a major problem? Probably not. But it does make a difference over the course of a year...
Did the retarded person sin? Technically, yes. He knew what he was doing was wrong. He had "full knowledge" as you put it.
But I don't think he's culpable, because he's not able to process why what he is doing is "naughty".

See, it isn't all black and white.

When a hurricane rushes through and destroys stuff, the store owners are also harmed. It's nobody's fault because what happened is natural. A retarded person was naturally born that way in most cases.

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

And nobody has to be put on a rack or get burned at the stake. Much nicer this way...friendlier...
Don't you think, Spiritus?


Both sides need to remember that where much is given, much will also be required.
It is totally refreshing to meet a Catholic who realizes that the violence of the past was wrong.

Dante from Dante's inferno said he saw some Popes burning in hell. If true, wouldn't surprise me. God is merciful but He is not be played with, no matter who you are.

 

[KingJ]

Both sides need to remember that where much is given, much will also be required.
It is totally refreshing to meet a Catholic who realizes that the violence of the past was wrong.

What violence exactly? The 400 years of inquisitions that killed a staggering 3 000 or so heretics judged by a panel of respected clergy?

The Holy crusades? War with Muslims is not understandable?

 

[Barrd]

What violence exactly? The 400 years of inquisitions that killed a staggering 3 000 or so heretics judged by a panel of respected clergy?

That is the violence I was referring to, of course.
Someone should have explained to that "panel of respected clergy" that forced faith is not really faith at all.

The Holy crusades? War with Muslims is not understandable?

The Crusades were justified. Or at least they were in the beginning.

 

[KingJ]

1. That is the violence I was referring to, of course.
Someone should have explained to that "panel of respected clergy" that forced faith is not really faith at all.

2. The Crusades were justified. Or at least they were in the beginning.

1. There is alot more to the inquisition. If my history serves me correctly, it all started in Spain with a new KIng who drove the Jews out for their money as he was bankrupt from the war. He needed a reason to drive them out and it was their faith. Albeit the prior King was Catholic and had a great relationship with them. The Catholic church stepped in with the 'inquisition' before the killing went further out of control. The inquisition was introduced to save lives. You must try visualize the mindsets of semi barbarian leaders and people at that time.

Then...I agree with dealing with false teachers in a harsh way. Look at the state of Christianity today!!!! If only we still had the inquisition!!!

2. We don't know many of the facts. But what we do know is that Islam has been a problem for all nations not Islamic since it started.

Every 5 minutes a Christian is murderd today. In just ten days we have the tally of 400 years of inquisitions.

 

[Barrd]

1. There is alot more to the inquisition. If my history serves me correctly, it all started in Spain with a new KIng who drove the Jews out for their money as he was bankrupt from the war. He needed a reason to drive them out and it was their faith. Albeit the prior King was Catholic and had a great relationship with them. The Catholic church stepped in with the 'inquisition' before the killing went further out of control. The inquisition was introduced to save lives. You must try visualize the mindsets of semi barbarian leaders and people at that time.

Then...I agree with dealing with false teachers in a harsh way. Look at the state of Christianity today!!!! If only we still had the inquisition!!!

King, please don't tell me that you would bring back the torture and the killing of anyone who doesn't agree with a specific theology?
Have you spent much time here? LOL...it would be a blood bath, my friend!

The thing is, while you might frighten people into saying that they agree with whatever brand of theology is doing the torturing, that doesn't mean that they actually do. You simply cannot force people to believe a certain way. You cannot control someone else's mind or heart, King.

Okay, maybe there are times I wish I could. For instance, if I were in charge of an Inquisition today, I would be hunting down everyone who dares to promote abortion. No Christian would be allowed to so much as whisper such a thing. And how about we punish any Christian who dares to defy me by plunging them into an acid bath, so that they might know what happens to the baby in the womb when the doc injects a saline solution into the amniotic fluid? Or we could apply suction to his limbs and tear him apart...

But, no. I could not be so cruel as that.

2. We don't know many of the facts. But what we do know is that Islam has been a problem for all nations not Islamic since it started.

Every 5 minutes a Christian is murderd today. In just ten days we have the tally of 400 years of inquisitions.

So, what is the answer, then, King?
Should we wipe them out?
Bomb Mecca, perhaps? Nuke 'em off the face of the earth?
Wouldn't that make us as bad as they are? Are we killers, King? Should we be?
Killers in the name of Christ?

I don't have any answers. Do you?

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

If you have read the Koran then you probably had a good laugh like I did when Bush said we were going to invade Iraq and make them a democratic nation. :lol:

All we can do for these folks is pray for them. They are even allowed to lie as long as it furthers the cause of Islam. So you cant make deals with them either, John Kerry.

 

[biointeger]

“As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” Romans 3: 10, 23

As I begin to debunk this erroneous doctrine of ‘the immaculate conception of Mary’, let me quickly submit that I’m not out for religious bashing. But rather, I’m out with a holy motive of love, to rescue some of our well-meaning, lovely brethren in the Lord. Who are inadvertently indoctrinated into this erroneous doctrine that is obviously very disastrous.

“The 8th of December, 1854, Pope Pius IX was sitting on his throne; a triple crown of gold and diamonds was on his head: silk and damask- red and white vestments on his shoulders; five hundred mitred prelates were surrounding him; and more than fifty thousand people were at his feet in the incomparable St. Peter’s Church of Rome. After a few minutes of most solemn silence, a cardinal, dressed with his purple robe, left his seat, and gravely walked towards the pope, humbly prostrating himself at his feet, and said:

‘Holy Father, tell us if we can believe and teach that the Mother of God, the Holy Virgin Mary, was immaculate in her conception.’

The Supreme Pontiff answered: “I do not know; let us ask the light of the Holy Ghost.”
The cardinal withdrew; the Pope and the numberless multitude fell on their knees; and the harmonious choir sang the ‘Veni Creator Spiritus.’

The last note of the sacred hymn had hardly rolled under the vaults of the temple, when the same cardinal left his place, and again advanced towards the throne of the pontiff, prostrated himself at his feet, and said;

‘Holy Father, tell us if the Holy Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin Mary, was immaculate in her conception.’
The pope again answered: ‘I do not know; let us ask the light of the Holy Ghost.’

And again the ‘Veni Creator Spiritus’ was sung.

Again the eyes of the multitude followed the grave steps of the purple- robed cardinal for the third time to the throne of the successor of St. Peter, to ask again:

‘Holy Father, tell us if we can believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of God was immaculate.’
The pope, as if he had just received a direct communication from God, answered with a solemn voice:

‘Yes! We must believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary was immaculate in her conception… There is no salvation to those who do not believe this dogma!’

And, with a loud voice, the pope intoned the Te Deum; the bells of the three hundred churches of Rome rang; the cannons of the citadel were fired. The last act of the most ridiculous and sacrilegious comedy the world had ever seen, was over; the doors of heaven were forever shut against those who would refuse to believe the anti-scriptural doctrine that there is a daughter of Eve who has not inherited the sinful nature of Adam.

She was redeclared exempt when the God of Truth said, “There is none righteous; no, not one: for all have sinned!” (Rom. 3:10, 23)
No trace of this teaching is found in the first centuries of the Church.”
(50 Years in the “Church” of Rome, The Conversion of a Priest, by Charles Chiniquy, Chick publications, 1985, pp. 233-234 [c. 1886])
(As quoted in Rebecca Brown’s ‘Prepare For War’)

Dear brethren in the Lord, it is very clear that this doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary, is unscriptural. The doctrine was enacted without consulting ‘The Book Of Truth’-The Holy Bible. And of course, the Holy Spirit does not speak against scriptural Truths.

We can’t afford to risk our salvation and faith on what man says. No matter his title, position or whatever. Like the Berea Fellows in the book of acts of the Apostle, when we receive an instruction, exhortation or doctrine from our teachers, we should be wise enough to compare them with scriptural truths (Acts 17:11).

Anybody can claim to have heard the Holy Spirit, but for us to be on the safest side, we must compare what we receive with the scriptures. I for one, I do not take everything I’m taught in Church, no matter who it is I received it from. If I compare, and it does not concur to scriptural truth, I discard it.

To this end, I often tell people that I listen to every sermon with filter in my ears. And that is including my present Pastor. Because I believe salvation is a personal race.

On the Day of Judgment, I can’t blame my failure on anyone but myself. Hence, The Lord Jesus said, we should be as wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove…

The scriptures admonishes us to worship God in spirit and Truth. We are commanded to walk in the Spirit. We’re are told that when the Holy Spirit comes, he’ll guide us into all truth. But particularly, Jesus says he will not speak of himself, but rather, he will take of mine, and show them to you. Jesus words are as entrenched in the word of God- the Bible.
Anything outside the written word of God, is definitely not from the Spirit of Jesus- The Holy Spirit.

To this end, the Apostle Paul says; anyone who preaches any other gospel, apart from the original gospel, let him be accursed—Gal 1:8.

Hence, to avoid the curse of God, we must confine ourselves to only scriptural truths.

It is my earnest prayer, that the Lord Jesus, will restructure your heart, and pull you out of this erroneous doctrine (if you’re involved) with this word in season in the Mighty Name of Jesus Christ!

Remain Blessed!

Emeke Odili

How do you debunk something that's not true?