The Immaculate Conception Error!
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So, show me, then.
I'm here, and I'm listening.
I believe in miracles.
I've seen the real deal....real tongues, and real healing. These things do happen today, just as they did in the first century.
What can you show me to convince me that the "word of faith" movement is real?
I promise, I will TAKE the time to investigate what you tell me before I get REACTIONARY about it.
(Whatever that even means.)
I'm here, and I'm listening.
I believe in miracles.
I've seen the real deal....real tongues, and real healing. These things do happen today, just as they did in the first century.
What can you show me to convince me that the "word of faith" movement is real?
I promise, I will TAKE the time to investigate what you tell me before I get REACTIONARY about it.
(Whatever that even means.)
I dunno, I kinda like "Christians with super powers".KingJ said:
We could look at some of the preachers who teach the WF doctrine, and see what else they may have said...for instance, rumor has it that Adam could fly, according to one WF teacher....
I wonder...could he leap tall buildings in a single bound, or bend steel in his bare hands? Was he faster than a speeding bullet and more powerful than a locomotive?
There was this one guy....but he was from another planet, so I don't think he counts....
FHII
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Yeah...you're "a bit of a wise guy" with a penchant for riddles.FHII said:
And you have super powers.
(waits patiently for the punch line)...
Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.StanJ said:
For just as through the disobedience of the one man (Adam) the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man (Jesus) the many will be made righteous.
Respectfully Tom55
I guess it has a lot to do with this,emekrus said:
Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.
Jer 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.
Jer 12:11 They have made it desolate, and being desolate it mourneth unto me; the whole land is made desolate, because no man layeth it to heart.
Just because a man calls himself a preacher doesnt mean he is called from God, the evidence is in all the lies and corruption in mens churches. Who preaches the truth??
Jesus is my companion, He is the truth in Him you will find no lIe.
In all His Love
FHII, I think I'd like to kiss you.FHII said:I have the gospel. It is the power of God! Lot of people don't think its super, but it gives me eternal life! Batman can't do that!
You make me smile every time I talk with you.
What Paul is saying here is a retrospective...nobody was MADE a sinner except in the sense that they DID sin. Nobody is born WITH sin, but INTO sin as that is what our carnal nature is. Romans 5 must be read in ALL it's context, which means v13 as well. The Greek used here is καθίστημι (kathistēmi), and IMO is more properly rendered as constitute or cause to be, if one does not really get the meaning being actually conveyed.tom55 said:
I don't understand what you are trying to say. I understand these scripture passages because they are clear. But I don't understand your theory the way you explained it. (I don't mean that disrespectfully)StanJ said:
Verse 12 sets up what I quoted and explains what "death" is; SIN.
So what it all means (in full context) is even those that did not sin by breaking the commandments has sin in them because Adam, through disobedience, brought sin into the world; also known as original sin. Sin is in us even before we commit a sin.
Well I don't know how to make it any clearer in common English? Death is the result of sin...it is NOT sin. Sin is disobeying God.tom55 said:
V12 does NOT say "death" is sin so it would appear you are taking free licence with the Word of God to eisegete a point that is NOT there? No offense taken.
Actually Paul said without the law there is no sin, v13, so again you're not quite getting what Paul is teaching here. V20 & 21 may help you to put this chapter in proper perspective. Then again, maybe not.
justaname
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This is relevant to the topic...
13. Paul breaks off his construction and proceeds in a different direction. But what he says is connected with the preceding, and he links it up with for. He can say what he has just said, for there was sin even before the law was given: even before there was any such thing as formal law there was sin. It is usually held that law here means the law of Moses (cf. “from Adam to Moses” in v. 14), but NEB makes it general, “before there was law”; this is a possible but unlikely interpretation. Paul puts it in the form sin was in the world, keeping up his personification of sin. But before the law there was a difference, for sin is not reckoned or imputed where there is no law. One cannot be a lawbreaker if there is no law to break (cf. 4:15). Despite this sin was indeed present in the world. This has been interpreted in two ways. It is possible to take it (as Hendriksen does) in the sense that it shows that there is a more comprehensive law than that of Moses. There is a law written on people’s hearts (2:15). On biblical premises it can scarcely be denied that sin was reckoned to people and punished in the period between Adam and Moses, as the flood narrative, to name no other, plainly shows (Gen. 6:5–7, 12–13). The other is to point out that Paul is emphasizing what Adam did; he may thus mean that it was that one sin that brought death to all. It is objected that this requires the insertion of the words “in Adam”; to leave them out is to leave out what is crucial. Neither view can be said to be proved or to be impossible given our present state of knowledge, but perhaps the context points to the second.
The Pillar New Testament Commentary
How then do we explain verse 13, which says that sin is not reckoned apart from the law? The purpose of that verse is to explain that apart from the Mosaic law sin is not equivalent to transgression (Cranfield 1975: 282–83; Bornkamm 1952: 84). This is confirmed by both Rom. 4:15 and the present context, for Paul notes explicitly in 5:14 that Adam’s sin was different in kind from those who lived before the Mosaic law in that he violated a commandment disclosed by God. One could still object that this distinction is rather trivial since those who do not “transgress” the law are punished with death anyway (e.g., the flood generation). In response I would say that Paul’s objective was twofold. First, the power of death is so great that it exercises its dominion over people even if no law exists. Second, violating a commandment revealed by God increases the seriousness of sin in the sense that the sin is now more defiant and rebellious in character (Calvin 1960: 119; Westerholm 1988: 183–84). This point accords with the Pauline conception that sin increases (5:20) and takes on a sharper profile (7:7–11) through the law.
Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament
13. Paul breaks off his construction and proceeds in a different direction. But what he says is connected with the preceding, and he links it up with for. He can say what he has just said, for there was sin even before the law was given: even before there was any such thing as formal law there was sin. It is usually held that law here means the law of Moses (cf. “from Adam to Moses” in v. 14), but NEB makes it general, “before there was law”; this is a possible but unlikely interpretation. Paul puts it in the form sin was in the world, keeping up his personification of sin. But before the law there was a difference, for sin is not reckoned or imputed where there is no law. One cannot be a lawbreaker if there is no law to break (cf. 4:15). Despite this sin was indeed present in the world. This has been interpreted in two ways. It is possible to take it (as Hendriksen does) in the sense that it shows that there is a more comprehensive law than that of Moses. There is a law written on people’s hearts (2:15). On biblical premises it can scarcely be denied that sin was reckoned to people and punished in the period between Adam and Moses, as the flood narrative, to name no other, plainly shows (Gen. 6:5–7, 12–13). The other is to point out that Paul is emphasizing what Adam did; he may thus mean that it was that one sin that brought death to all. It is objected that this requires the insertion of the words “in Adam”; to leave them out is to leave out what is crucial. Neither view can be said to be proved or to be impossible given our present state of knowledge, but perhaps the context points to the second.
The Pillar New Testament Commentary
How then do we explain verse 13, which says that sin is not reckoned apart from the law? The purpose of that verse is to explain that apart from the Mosaic law sin is not equivalent to transgression (Cranfield 1975: 282–83; Bornkamm 1952: 84). This is confirmed by both Rom. 4:15 and the present context, for Paul notes explicitly in 5:14 that Adam’s sin was different in kind from those who lived before the Mosaic law in that he violated a commandment disclosed by God. One could still object that this distinction is rather trivial since those who do not “transgress” the law are punished with death anyway (e.g., the flood generation). In response I would say that Paul’s objective was twofold. First, the power of death is so great that it exercises its dominion over people even if no law exists. Second, violating a commandment revealed by God increases the seriousness of sin in the sense that the sin is now more defiant and rebellious in character (Calvin 1960: 119; Westerholm 1988: 183–84). This point accords with the Pauline conception that sin increases (5:20) and takes on a sharper profile (7:7–11) through the law.
Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament
Born_Again
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justaname
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When Paul says “all sinned,” he indeed means that every human being has personally sinned. Nevertheless, we should not read a Pelagian interpretation from this, for the ἐφʼ ᾧ phrase explains why all human beings have sinned. As a result of Adam’s sin death entered the world and engulfed all people; all people enter the world alienated from God and spiritually dead by virtue of Adam’s sin. By virtue of entering the world in the state of death (i.e., separated from God), all human beings sin. This understanding of the text confirms the view of scholars who insist that original death is more prominent than “original sin” in this text. The personal sin of human beings is explained by the sway death holds over us. Such an interpretation is also supported by the notion that death is a power that reigns and rules over us now (Rom. 5:14, 17) and that culminates in physical death. Moreover, Paul says specifically in 5:15 that human beings “died” because of the trespass of Adam. Our alienation and separation from God are due to Adam’s sin, and thus we sin as a result of being born into the world separated from God’s life. The notion that we are “dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1; cf. Eph. 2:5; Col. 2:13) should be interpreted similarly. This phrase does not mean that first we commit trespasses and sins and as a consequence die. Rather, the idea is that we are born into the world (“children of wrath by nature,” Eph. 2:3) separated from God, and our sins are a result of the spiritual state of death. The entire context of Eph. 2:1–10 supports this interpretation, for God remedies the situation by granting life to those of us who are dead and as a result of his life we do good works. The parallel is remarkable: the consequence of death is trespasses and sins, whereas the result of life is good works. Ephesians 4:17–18 confirms my interpretation. The reason Gentiles live in a way that displeases God is because they are separated from his life. In other words, the result of spiritual death is a lifestyle of sin.
The main objection to the interpretation proposed is that Paul often argues that death is the result of sin. Fitzmyer (1993a) does not take advantage of his own linguistic suggestion because he cannot see how sin can be the result of death. Paul has just said that Adam died because he sinned (5:12b), and he emphasizes elsewhere that the consequence of sin is death (1:32; 6:16, 21, 23; 7:5, 10, 13, 8:2). So how can he say here that sin is the result of death? The resolution of this problem is not terribly difficult. We should not opt for an either-or answer here. Paul does indeed claim that people die because of sin, but he also insists that they sin because they are dead (i.e., separated from God). All human beings enter the world alienated from God, and as a result of this alienation they sin. It is also true that they will experience eschatological death if they sin.
Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament
The main objection to the interpretation proposed is that Paul often argues that death is the result of sin. Fitzmyer (1993a) does not take advantage of his own linguistic suggestion because he cannot see how sin can be the result of death. Paul has just said that Adam died because he sinned (5:12b), and he emphasizes elsewhere that the consequence of sin is death (1:32; 6:16, 21, 23; 7:5, 10, 13, 8:2). So how can he say here that sin is the result of death? The resolution of this problem is not terribly difficult. We should not opt for an either-or answer here. Paul does indeed claim that people die because of sin, but he also insists that they sin because they are dead (i.e., separated from God). All human beings enter the world alienated from God, and as a result of this alienation they sin. It is also true that they will experience eschatological death if they sin.
Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament
So when and how does sin (or the desire to sin) enter into us? Since we all eventually sin.StanJ said:
Also this statement by you (Then again, maybe not.) sounds condescending. Was that your intent? (just curious, ain't mad at ya', just trying to figure out how you write your thoughts)
ISnt that hard, free will, how can a child sin when a child doesnt know good from evil right from wrong. Only God knows that moment when we choose,. we all have the ablity to love and be loved, to do evil and to do good, just as a vessel can be filled with good wine or manure, we choose the filling.
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