The Invisible God

[Netchaplain]

Surely, it would suffice us to see the Father, but that would not be faith, and if one cannot be satisfied without seeing Him yet, one will never be satisfied; because it would not be faith that sees Him, but our flesh! We should be most encouraged just to know that the Father is ours and we are His, and there is no greater exhortation, no greater faith than knowing the Father—until we see Him!

Of course seeing Him now would be also encouraging, but it would not be worth losing that greatest part of our faith, but it would be the proof of Him without faith. Faith first (this life)—then the proof, which increases our satisfaction in seeing Him after the time of faith (faith will be no more). Phillip told Jesus that if He would show them the Father it would satisfy them (Jhn 14:8); but he was coming from a heart that needed proof. Not for faith in Christ, but more evidence for faith in Christ, for “Jews require a sign” (1Co 1:22), but the Lord Jesus had given enough evidence for faith in Him, and desires that our faith in Him will be rewarded when we do finally see the Father and the blessed Lord Jesus (Jhn 20:29) at the “translation” (Heb 11:5 - rapture).

He wants us to see the Father through Himself (Jhn 14:9) for increased faith (believing there is a Father without having to see Him, as they would have liked). Seeing the Father will be the last thing on faith’s menu. The Father is the reason for all things and therefore must be the last proof to see, but not before the time. As we can see it is mostly about faith, and seeing God through seeing the Lord Jesus is the greatest of faith. We are God’s, and He gives us to His Son; but we are still the Father’s—by sonship in Christ—still God’s children, i.e. child-ship.

God said “no man can see” Him “and live” (Exo 33:20; Jhn 1:18; 1 Timothy 6:14–16; 1 John 4:12). But seeing Jesus is as seeing the Father, for they are the same in everything, but are in different authorities. This answers to Jesus being “the fullness of the Godhead (Father) bodily,” and “the express image of His (Father) person” (Col 2:9; Heb 1:3).

Faith is all we have to go on, and thus it is the second most important virtue after “love” (1Co 13:13); and is why it is that “faith which worketh by love” (Gal 5:6). It is sensible to see why God desires that we wait last to see Him (He did not show Himself to anyone)—saving the most important for last. It was God who sent the Son, and it is God Who manifested the greatest love. He could have come in His Son’s place, but that would not have been the most sacrificial!​

NC

 

[Randy Kluth]

Surely, it would suffice us to see the Father, but that would not be faith, and if one cannot be satisfied without seeing Him yet, one will never be satisfied; because it would not be faith that sees Him, but our flesh! We should be most encouraged just to know that the Father is ours and we are His, and there is no greater exhortation, no greater faith than knowing the Father—until we see Him!

Of course seeing Him now would be also encouraging, but it would not be worth losing that greatest part of our faith, but it would be the proof of Him without faith. Faith first (this life)—then the proof, which increases our satisfaction in seeing Him after the time of faith (faith will be no more). Phillip told Jesus that if He would show them the Father it would satisfy them (Jhn 14:8); but he was coming from a heart that needed proof. Not for faith in Christ, but more evidence for faith in Christ, for “Jews require a sign” (1Co 1:22), but the Lord Jesus had given enough evidence for faith in Him, and desires that our faith in Him will be rewarded when we do finally see the Father and the blessed Lord Jesus (Jhn 20:29) at the “translation” (Heb 11:5 - rapture).

He wants us to see the Father through Himself (Jhn 14:9) for increased faith (believing there is a Father without having to see Him, as they would have liked). Seeing the Father will be the last thing on faith’s menu. The Father is the reason for all things and therefore must be the last proof to see, but not before the time. As we can see it is mostly about faith, and seeing God through seeing the Lord Jesus is the greatest of faith. We are God’s, and He gives us to His Son; but we are still the Father’s—by sonship in Christ—still God’s children, i.e. child-ship.

God said “no man can see” Him “and live” (Exo 33:20; Jhn 1:18; 1 Timothy 6:14–16; 1 John 4:12). But seeing Jesus is as seeing the Father, for they are the same in everything, but are in different authorities. This answers to Jesus being “the fullness of the Godhead (Father) bodily,” and “the express image of His (Father) person” (Col 2:9; Heb 1:3).

Faith is all we have to go on, and thus it is the second most important virtue after “love” (1Co 13:13); and is why it is that “faith which worketh by love” (Gal 5:6). It is sensible to see why God desires that we wait last to see Him (He did not show Himself to anyone)—saving the most important for last. It was God who sent the Son, and it is God Who manifested the greatest love. He could have come in His Son’s place, but that would not have been the most sacrificial!​

NC

I'll give you my take on faith and seeing God. I don't believe anybody can truly "see God" as creatures of His. And I don't believe anyone will ever be able to do this. One would have to be God to see God. In a sense maybe even Jesus cannot "see God" as a man. As a divine man he just knows he is divine.

So the only way for creatures to "see God" is through faith. Faith, however, has its own form of knowledge and sight--it is not "blind." We see God through our knowledge of Christ, who expressed God on a level that we can actually "see."

Faith is not going to end--the Bible says faith is eternal for those who have it. It is knowledge that will go away once we fully see God through a more perfect "knowing." We will not see God in His infinite form. But we will see Him based on a more perfect knowledge, expressed in the man Jesus.

The importance of faith is not that we be blind and obtain some kind of virtue in believing without proof. Rather, the virtue is in believing based on invisible proof expressed in the virtues of Christ. Christ himself was visible in his physical being and presence. But who he was, as divine, could only be seen through faith, which recognizes who he is.

People who want to see purely in the external sense are like seedy lawyers, trying to concoct evidence to not follow God. But morality exists already within the soul, and we only have to see that to believe God, Judge of our actions.

1 Cor 13.12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love.

We shall indeed see God more clearly, without the intermediary of "proofs" and that kind of knowledge. But the kind of knowledge we shall have is a "knowing" by direct, unimpeded experience.

Presently, our experience of God is direct and intimate. And yet it is impeded by sin, causing our knowledge of the good to be conflicted by the knowledge of our self-interests. But one day we will no longer be thus confused and have blurry vision. We will not see God in His entire being, which would kill us. But we will be able to see God in intimate, uninterrupted, unspoiled knowledge.

The kind of knowledge that will pass away will be like clues being taken away because the riddle is already solved. It is like taking away all of the proofs for God because His presence will be overwhelming, always available, and true.

Thanks again for another interesting post! These are just my speculations, based on this limited knowledge I speak of. :) We may have different explanations for what "faith" is, but I know, those of us who know Him know of whom we speak! ;)

 

[Netchaplain]

One would have to be God to see God. In a sense maybe even Jesus cannot "see God" as a man. As a divine man he just knows he is divine.

Hi, and thanks for your replies. It's my belief Jesus could see the face of God
Jhn 6:46.

 

[Rockerduck]

Hello,
John 20:29 - Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

 

[Netchaplain]

Hello,
John 20:29 - Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Hi! Yes, I mentioned this verse in my second paragraph. Believing without seeing gains the special "blessing" of being in the sonship of Christ, and inheriting the new heaven.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi, and thanks for your replies. It's my belief Jesus could see the face of God
Jhn 6:46.

It depends on what "seeing face to face" means. I don't think it's possible for a man to see God in His infinite Being. We would have to be in a state of infinite being ourselves to see the totality of an infinite Being.

It's like riding on the back of an elephant the size of the universe. We may see and feel the elephant, but it would be impossible to see His infinite face.

We certainly may see Him in the sense that we recognize Him in the face of Jesus. And for Jesus that would be like seeing God in the mirror. ;)

Jesus is still "true Man." As Deity in flesh, it really doesn't matter. Being God He shares with the Father the divine identity. So where's the problem? ;)

 

[Matthias]

Jesus is the human face of the invisible God.

 

[Netchaplain]

I'll give you my take on faith and seeing God. I don't believe anybody can truly "see God" as creatures of His. And I don't believe anyone will ever be able to do this.

We will see God at the rapture (Mat 5:8; Job 19:26, 27)!

 

[Randy Kluth]

We will see God at the rapture (Mat 5:8; Job 19:26, 27)!

The problem here is in what it means to "see God?" My point is that the Scriptures that speak of our inability, as humans, to see God are speaking of His infinite status. Infinite beings cannot "see" an infinite Being in that regard.

We "see God" in another respect by seeing Him in His representations, so that God uses finite media to transmit who He is to finite beings, ie humans.

 

[Netchaplain]

Infinite beings cannot "see" an infinite Being in that regard.

Do you mean finite beings cannot an infinite God?

 

[Netchaplain]

The problem here is in what it means to "see God?"

I wouldn't think there is a reason why we will not see God as it says.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Do you mean finite beings cannot an infinite God?

There is an impassable chasm between a finite creature and the infinite Creator. But the infinite Creator creates out of Himself a gate through which we can go to see Him for real.

A major means of that is the Word of God in all of its various forms. A most precious form of that Word is Christ himself, who was a created body and brain with a divine personality, one with the Father.

That's the best I can do to explain this. The finite/infinite discussion quandary goes back to the ancient Greeks, many of whom thought infinite Deity could not be experienced.

Obviously, as Christians we know that isn't true, because not only can we know the Word with our minds, but we can experience the Holy Spirit in our lives. And we can see in Jesus the Father, as I said.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I wouldn't think there is a reason why we will not see God as it says.

I'm very technical about the language I use because many years ago I got trapped up in a Christian cult--the Local Church (named not by them but by those who rejected them) under Witness Lee. Some people deny they are a cult any longer, but in my experience they were a cult.

They disparaged other Christian denominations because they felt they alone went without a denominational designation, and assigned only one church per city, which they thought was Scriptural. No denominational barriers, and one unified Church. Of course, it was "their church" that followed their Scriptural prescription! ;)

I was only a part of it for less than a year, and I remained suspicious, reading everything the leader had written. This was the headquarters church in Anaheim, and Lee lived about one block from me. He seemed to follow Watchman Nee, who had been his friend and compatriot, but there was something different. I continue to love Nee a lot, but rejected Lee.

Eventually I came to learn they were modalists. When I got out of that cult I studied the Trinity, and tried to understand all the associated problems.

And so I use my own unique language so that using my own words I can describe what I believe the issues are.
The Father is the infinite God. The only thing that we can understand about Him consists of His own verbal projection to us about Himself. He does this through the Word, which appears to us in finite form that our finite brains can understand.

The word "Father," for example, is a finite designation about the infinite God that we can understand. But everything about God has to be reduced from an infinite existence down to the finite level where we can comprehend His form in finite terms.

The Holy Spirit conveys this to us in our own local experience, even though the Holy Spirit Himself is omnipresent. But being local and in proximate location to us, we can actually experience Him and know God as a spiritual experience.

Jesus conveys the infinite God to us in the form of man, who is both local and material. He brings the infinite substance of God down to earth in a way in which we can see His behavior in human form. Jesus has the divine identity, and is both God and Man. But he, as a man, is in a finite form so that we can see God through his human behaviors.

It's a very dicey subject, discussing the Trinity, so it's either something you enjoy discussing, or it takes you far afield of what you're called to do? But as you may surmise it is very, very easy to misunderstand.

The Church Fathers could not bring a unified language together for some time because of all of the problems coming to terms with these things. In the end we have a pretty good orthodoxy regarding the Trinity. The Creeds have served a good purpose in keeping the Church relatively close to what we need for Salvation.

3 Persons and 1 Substance. It isn't really mathematical, in my opinion, or able to be expressed as such, because math is based on finite values. Even infinite mathematical expression is expressed using finite symbols, eg 1,2,3...

So we have one infinite divine Person and 3 finite expressions of the same, unified in the same Divine substance. We can't say 3 Persons = 1 Person, but we can say 1 infinite Person expressed in 3 finite forms of that same infinite Person. But each finite form of God, as expressed by the Word of God, is in itself the infinite God.

Basically, we meet and see God through the agency of His Word, and not directly, from finite creation to infinite Creator.