How many times was Israel disobedient in all it's history .... lots and lots and lots ...... did God continue to use them as chosen people to deal with the rest of the world .... of course he did ..... was that part of His plan all along ...... yes it was ...... did Israel ever turn it's back on God and worship Idols ..... they sure did .... and did God still continued with them .... yes He did ...... does God save people based on obedience or on grace and mercy ....... grace and mercy ....... does he use Israel as an example of His endless grace and mercy ..... yes He does ...... Does He use forgiven Christians as examples of His Grace and mercy .... yes he does .... is there still prophecy to be fulfilled for disobedient Israel ..... yes ...... is some of it favorable for Israel ..... yes it is ..... does that bother some christians ..... yes it does ...... how come he still uses jerusalem and Israel instead of New York and Hollywood ..... because he chose only one Jerusalem and one Israel ...... when Jesus comes back does He come to Montana or israel ...... israel ..... dont the Mormons think they are Israel .... yes ..... dont the Catholics think they are Israel ..... yes they do ..... dont the Brit-am group think they are Israel .... yes they do ..... are there a lot of christians who think they are Israel .... yes there are ..... why does God not use all the "other Israel's" the way people want Him to ..... because God says he uses original Israel for His own reasons and His Holy Name ..... does Israel deserve it ..... no they do not ...... if the christian church was Israel , would they deserve it .... no they would not ..... so what is the big deal then ...... some swelled up heads have convinced themselves they are Israel ...... what do the swelled up heads have to say about Messianic Jewish believers ...... OOPS , forgot about them ...... can we not just sweep them under the gentile carpet ..... nope .... cant we just sweep the whole Israel thing under the gentile carpet ..... nope ..... how come ..... too much yet to happen for literal israel ..... yes ..... but we just overlook that all the time ..... yes we do ...
the Israel of God
- Thread starter Joe Domingo
- Start date
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Eph 4:17Arnie Manitoba said:
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
(KJV)
I can see where one your interpretation problems comes from Arnie, you're using the corrupt NIV.
The word "other" in the Greek means a remnant, the rest of, hence the KJV translators properly rendered it as "other".
The seed of Israel had specific geneological traits, so let's not go nuts and treat them like a rainbow of colors like liberals try to do.
The Behistun Rock carving in northern Iraq shows the features of the ten tribes of Israel were Caucasian.
But it's the concept of Spiritual Israel per Romans 9 that is the most important since Christ Jesus died on the cross. Per the latter part of Zech.14 we're shown separate nations still existing after Christ's second coming.
Well I use the NIV...and other translations but grew up on the King James...so...
Of course there is 'spiritual' Israel...but there is also Israel
Again, using up the last of my current time quota...this topic needs attention to detail but people have been trying to nullify Israel for so many years that in their
own minds, I think some have managed to do so
It's not going to happen folks! ;)
Prophecy being fulfilled, such as Israel becoming a nation again and the Bible stating the times of the Gentiles indicating that time period will end...there is just
too much scripture to conclude that Israel is no longer a factor. I don't people who are stating this really have a grip on prophecy like they think they do..and
it's not my forte in studies either...but I will defer to those who have studied this and know what they are talking about.
Sure to get a whack on the head now...be back sometime in the not too distant future
BTW, I'm not impressed with yelling etc, kindly keep your remarks, if you have them, civil. Yes, I go all cavalry on heresy issues, but I don't see this as one
Of course there is 'spiritual' Israel...but there is also Israel
I think scrpture is plain that Israel still exists and is the center of the conflict to come.
Again, using up the last of my current time quota...this topic needs attention to detail but people have been trying to nullify Israel for so many years that in their
own minds, I think some have managed to do so
It's not going to happen folks! ;)
Prophecy being fulfilled, such as Israel becoming a nation again and the Bible stating the times of the Gentiles indicating that time period will end...there is just
too much scripture to conclude that Israel is no longer a factor. I don't people who are stating this really have a grip on prophecy like they think they do..and
it's not my forte in studies either...but I will defer to those who have studied this and know what they are talking about.
Sure to get a whack on the head now...be back sometime in the not too distant future
BTW, I'm not impressed with yelling etc, kindly keep your remarks, if you have them, civil. Yes, I go all cavalry on heresy issues, but I don't see this as one
The question and topic isn't whether or not Israel plays a part in the future, the question is who is Israel of salvation?Niki said:
It's clearly not simply the decedents of Abraham the OT makes it very clear that being an Israelite is not a free pass into Gods favor or salvation.
RC would have you believe that being a member in good standing is the ticket to salvation, do you believe that?
I'm now interested in knowing how you know what they are are talking about, what method do you use in determining who it is you believe?
The reason I'm interested is because this is obviously the choice of most Christians. Many can't give an account of what and why they believe certain concepts, other than that's what my church teaches. So how do you determine who it is that knows what their talking about when you admittedly don't have an understanding of the subject?
You don't think others have a grip on a subject, it's not your forte, but you believe the ones that know what there talking about?
I'm still trying to get my head around that bit of logic.
Do you understand that prophesy can and does shape ones understanding of the bible the NT in particular? How you read and understand the NT is dependent on your understanding of prophesy.
1.) The op title is actually 'The Israel of God"...so, with that definition, if one is, it almost seems as if the other isnt? I don't find that an illogical conclusion and indeed,
following the previous posts on page 1, it does seem the op believes Israel as a nation has ceased to actually exist...do I have that wrong? I haven't had
time to go to his site...
2.) I don't believe there is a free pass or an 'I got grand -daddied into anything in the Bible...' so that is not an obstacle .
3.) If by RC you mean Roman Catholic, that's a rabbit trail I don't care to go hopping down. I'm not RC anyway and you do seem to have an axe to grind there, but not
with me. Thanks
Hmmm...that's really not what I actually stated. I meant others responding in this forum with regards to prophecy concerning Israel and even the Gentile church.
I don't think responding on forums or contributing on forums is the best education necessairly....do you? Why would I think I have to make a decision based on
responses here? Why would I do that? I'm not doing that.
Well, that does not really hold true across the board. Quite frankly, I have found that more error exists in those who put the larger emphasis on their understanding of prophecy,
then in any other camp.
We have the three flavors of tribulation, the preterists, partial preterists, those who practically live in the book of Daniel, those who read all kinds of things into Revelation and
personalize things and paint in broad strokes while missing detail.
What I'm saying, is that I am not as rabid as some when it comes to prophecy...I did not say I don't know anything and I did not say it doesn't matter. I have obviously studied
enough to have formed an opinion regarding the topic of this thread.
On that subject, this is not Joe's first thread on this subject. He has or had one going here too, which I recently discovered. Apparently I am not the only one who
called his belief replacement theology. You expressed your thoughts in that thread too..That thread, is called spiritual Israel...a different title than the title of this thread
and maybe you are thinking of that thread when responding in this one. I don't know
In his other thread, Joe opens like so:
Galatians 6:16
"And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God."
As Paul begins to conclude his letter to the Galatians, who are gentiles by nature, he clues us into something quite interesting.
He calls them the Israel of God.
I believe that a new movement is occurring in the spirit. I believe that the Church will be awakening back to its original identity - which is the Israel of God.
This is a spiritual movement and I am seeing more and more youtube videos and writings on the subject all over the internet.
What do you think about this movement?
But then he starts THIS thread, and apparently has a website devoted to this particular emphasis.....I'm not 100% comfortable with that type of presentation...first
he doesn't know, then voila, he has a website. That just kind of makes me go...'hang on a moment here....' and that's what I think about his presentation. I'm not really
on board with it.
It just sounds a little....out there...as a movement.
You'll have to excuse me, but here:
it seems he denies the existence of ANY physical country called Israel. I'm wondering what he thinks of Palestine to be truthful.......I also get the impression that God's
rules and God's name for his people are what Joe has decided they are. Unite in what way? Under whose name exactly? Sorry, that does not sound quite like NT
teaching to me.
People like yourself can't make the distinction between a people and Gods chosen method of salvation, for those like yourself when it concerned Israel the two instinctively go together, all people born of Abraham and Sarah = Gods promised people. Paul disagrees.Niki said:
Like I said, I'll be willing to bet you have spent your entire christian life listening exclusively to teachers that follow the dispensatalist prophesy. It changes the way you understand NT.Niki said:
It appears to be so ingrained into your thinking it's impossible to convey the elementary concept of Gods distinction between Israelites that receive salvation and the body or nation of Israel as a whole. So no he doesn't deny Israel is recognized as a nation or I don't, but he is right about the question of proof, no one can trace their family line back to the time of Jesus.
I notice you remain completely silent about the many scriptures and teachings Paul wrote that says your mistaken.
OK...people like myself
Of course you are not in that group, eh? You know more and are smarter.
You don't have the understanding you think you do. But I am getting an understanding. You appear to believe you are somehow in a class that is approved for those in the know.
Why make this personal? You don't know Paul...or God's promises either it seems. I just wish you thought more of yourself and others and were able to resist the belittling and
snarky responses I am coming to know you for...not just to myself, but to others.
I find those comments distasteful and not necessary and revealing of your own high opinion of yourself.
I will tell you this however, I would not give my ear to someone who labels others and does not even try to see another point of view...my view is the right one.
You misquote because something I wrote makes you either angry or uncomfortable. Maybe both. People who become angry and snarky at others generally
have a problem with any opinion they disagree with. This is not a discussion on heresy here, there is no need to put another down because you in particular
disagree. That is what a forum debate consists of.
If the only way you can put aside what another states is by labelling them and making things personal, then I would conclude that you are threatened in some way
and become hostile at someone who dares to express thoughts that are not found within your sphere of influenece.
Do you really suppose what you state about me is true? Do you really think I will defend myself from it? You just played your own hand and revealed your own
character and really know nothing of mine.
You are exhibiting a form of chidlish bullying. That's all.
I'll probably return to this thread, but not in response to you. You don't listen and you twist what others say.
He is not saying what you are trying to make him say. There are a good number of American Christians who believe Israel is all washed up.
He is not omitting Israel at the expense of the Gentile nor is he stating that all Israel is saved....when in fact God himself judged them time after
time. Do you really think the Gentile church isn't well on the way to judgement and have somehow become the apple of God's eye instead?
If I may use your own expression here, "People like you limit God and you seem to think He is just like you and in agreement with all your
opinions."
They cherry pick their references and ignore anything to the contrary. They do, in fact, just what they accuse others of.
At any rate, since you have chosen to belittle and attack, rather than discuss rationally, I think you might find another of like mind to practice your
unfortunate arguments upon. I really dislike this type of snark and ignorant attack so I'll leave you to it and move on to someone who can actually
discuss even if they don't agree...but at least can remain objective.
I hope this is clear now because I have attempted several times in this thread to have you answer without adding your thoughts to what I actually state....to no avail.
You should really probably be happy with being the busy body and nosy neighbor in your congregation.
And leave discussion of biblical truths to those that have something to offer when they present a case.
And leave discussion of biblical truths to those that have something to offer when they present a case.
I'm sure that I do not have to remind you of our forum rules folks...Please stick to the O/P and leave the personal insults out of it....
Thank you!
Thank you!
To make sure you understand me, I'm not trying to nullify the existence of the seed of Israel by what I said.Niki said:
But I do hold to the Old Covenant to Israel having been made null and void by our Lord Jesus upon His cross.
Per Paul in Rom.11, God preserved a remnant of the seed of Israel that would know His Truth and believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ. When Paul used references in the Book of Hosea about that when speaking to Gentile Romans, that pointed especially to the ten lost tribes of Israel under Ephraim, simply because that's who God sent His prophet Hosea to give His Message to. Paul associated believing Gentiles with that Hosea prophecy (Rom.9:24-26).
Stop and think about that a moment. Paul quotes a Message from God originally given to the ten tribed "house of Israel", to Gentile believers in Romans 9:24-26???
Do you see a seeming contradiction in Paul doing that?
Apostle Paul did not contradict himself by doing that, the reason being, the ten lost tribes of Israel were to be scattered among the Gentiles per God's warning for rebellion (Deut.4 & 28), and thus the majority of them became... as Gentiles, living among Gentiles.
There exists Biblical, historical and archaeological evidence to prove the majority of the seed of the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) migrated into Asia Minor and Europe and became mixed among the Gentiles.
So when many hear the word Gentile, and think that always means one not born of the seed of Israel, that's actually wrong. It's simply that the ten tribes lost their heritage as seed of Israel, and think they are Gentiles, many of them having mixed with the Gentiles.
Does that put Christ's Salvation to the Gentiles too in greater perspective? I think it does. One could even say that if no Gentile inherited the Promises to Israel then many of the literal seed of lost Israel would cease to exist. And it's important to acknowledge that the ten tribes of Israel made up the MAJORITY of the literal seed of Israel. The Jews only made up approx. 1/3 of the seed.
God promised that a remnant of them would know His Truth, meaning some among the ten tribes would keep their knowledge of their heritage of Israel while scattered among the Gentiles (Ezek.6).
Hi Veteran
I understood you. I still want to go over what the op, Joe, posted....there are 2 basic differing views with regards to Israel and the church
Thanks!
I understood you. I still want to go over what the op, Joe, posted....there are 2 basic differing views with regards to Israel and the church
Thanks!
Do you really have to inject the simple truth with levin? The truth that Paul spoke of, the salvation to the Gentiles was foreseen and announced the to Abraham Gal 3:8veteran said:
Case in point Acts chapter 10 Cornelius and his house hold were nether wandering Jews or lost Israelites. End of point.
The lost tribes is an interesting subject and fun to talk about but its hardly foundational salvation, in fact it's completely unnecessary information, but it certainly strokes peoples over inflated imaginations and egos. You can no more prove your point than people living in Israel today can prove they are decedents from the 1st century, much less Abraham. The point is God has driven Israel out of the land and only He "God" knows who those people are today. And only He will gather them together. So in fact the unquestionable evidence is Judah is also lost to us today. I have no Idea whether the people of Israel today are the true decedents of Abraham. I would like to think so but its impossible to prove.
but we have the evidence that Paul teaches that in no uncertain terms those that believe (both Jew and Gentile) are of the seed and called Israel. Gal 3:29
Romans 9:6-8
Joe Domingo is very correct per The Scripture. Apostle Paul's idea of the "Israel of God" in Galatians does not leave out believing Gentiles on Christ Jesus. But it does leave out the unbelievers of the seed of Israel for those of them that will not turn to Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.
It's too bad many cannot see Paul's "Israel of God" concept established right here on earth among both the believing seed of Israel and believing Gentiles as one body. Paul's "commonwealth of Israel" term in Eph.2 is very relative to that.
The vain attempt to separate Israel from Christ's Church is just a dual ploy by men, one by the unbelieving Jews who don't want to ever consider Gentiles as being co-heir brethren of seed, and the other with the Pre-Trib Rapture doctors who create a false separation between the seed of Israel and Christ's Church just so they can drum up support for their false fly away theories.
It's too bad many cannot see Paul's "Israel of God" concept established right here on earth among both the believing seed of Israel and believing Gentiles as one body. Paul's "commonwealth of Israel" term in Eph.2 is very relative to that.
The vain attempt to separate Israel from Christ's Church is just a dual ploy by men, one by the unbelieving Jews who don't want to ever consider Gentiles as being co-heir brethren of seed, and the other with the Pre-Trib Rapture doctors who create a false separation between the seed of Israel and Christ's Church just so they can drum up support for their false fly away theories.
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