The Jews Must Admit Jesus Before He Can Return?

[Taken]

There's a false doctrine going around among some Messianic circles today that is obvious propaganda against them from some insider crept in unaware. The false doctrine is an idea loosely based on what our Lord Jesus said to the scribes and Pharisees hypocrites at the end of Matthew 23...

You accuse; false doctrine
You accuse; people in some Messianic circles
You accuse; other people's basis.

Noone is here claiming association in Messianic circles.
Noone is here claiming what you say.
Noone is here claiming their basis.

It's a fantom claim.

Matt 23:37
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'

KJV

Some false prophet has turned what Jesus said there (in red) into an idea that those orthodox unbelieving Jews must believe on Yeshua BEFORE He can return!

Who is this fandom false prophet?
Why go off on a tangent and introduce Jesus' timing of Return?

This is actually the very opposite of what God's Word declares about the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem just prior to our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming.

More of your own tangent of Jesus' timing of Return.

Luke 23:27-30
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.

This was when our Lord Jesus was carrying His cross up to be crucified. These people and women wept for Him as He went.

Luke 23:27 is during a time of when Jesus was present on earth THE FIRST TIME.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.' [/QUOTE

Then our Lord turned to those "Daughters of Jerusalem" (orthodox Jews), and said to weep for themselves, and for their children. That because the days will come, when they will say that, "Blessed are the barren...", which is a quote from Isaiah 54 where God gave a parable of the chaste faithful that remain barren waiting on Him vs. the spiritual harlot found with child by worshiping another instead.

Messianic Jews DO NOT WORSHIP "another".
^ THEY are specifically The JEWS who KEPT their Faith "IN GOD" "AND" Have Accepted "Jesus as their Christ Messiah Savior."

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us'."

KJV

^^ That APPLIES TO;
Jews WHO DID STOP being FAITHFUL to GOD, and DID NOT Accept Jesus as their Christ Messiah. (Regardless of their station in this life...common person or kings in high stations)

If you don't understand that Isaiah 54 parable about the symbolic barren woman, you should, because our Lord Jesus used the idea also in The Gospel (Matt.25 about the virgins), and Apostle Paul used it in 2 Cor.11 in wanting to present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin".

^ That is Applicable to JEWS WHO:
Stopped being Faithful "to God" and Never Accepted Jesus as their Christ Messiah.
THEY ARE BARREN...because they have NOT the FRUIT OF CHRIST JESUS in themselves.
^ THAT DOES NOT APPLY to a Messanic JEW.

Anyway, the point of our Lord's Message there to the "Daughters of Jerusalem" is that when He returns,

ANYWAY, again you speak of the TIMING of JESUS" "RETURN", even though you accused me of going off on a tangent, for speaking of the timing of JESUS" RETURN!!

and they learn how they had played the spiritual harlot in the end with the coming Antichrist, not remaining spiritually chaste and symbolically barren, then they will be in shame and wish for the mountains to "Fall on us;", and for the hills to "Cover us."

Elaborating ON YOUR "POINT"...

Does that sound like those unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem in the last days just prior to Christ's return will be believers on Him??? No, it doesn't, but just the opposite based on what our Lord Jesus said about their being deceived in the above Luke 23 Scripture.

Actually what it sounds like is you do not know the difference between:
A Jew who no longer is faithful to God;
AND
A Jew who remains faithful to God, but has not accepted Jesus as their Christ Messiah Savior;
AND
A Jew who remains faithful to God, and HAS Accepted Jesus as their Christ Messiah Savior.

The trap for Messianic Jews is this -

TRAP? You think it is a TRAP, for Jews to Accept Jesus as their Christ Messiah Savior?
UGH!

the orthodox unbelieving Jews are still looking for the coming of Messiah. They rejected Yeshua of Nazareth as The Messiah.

Yes.

The coming Antichrist is coming to Jerusalem first, to proclaim himself as The Messiah.

Actually, the anti-christ, shall proclaim Himself to BE GOD, not The Sent Messiah messenger.

So does that mean the unbelieving Jews will believe on Yeshua at that time?

Your QUESTION..

Absolutely not! Just the opposite; the unbelieving Jews will accept that false-Messiah as our True Lord Yeshua, thinking the false one will be the true Messiah. And when Yeshua does... appear, they will know they messed up, and will want for the mountains and hills to fall on them because of their shame. This is why Zechariah 12 shows they will mourn for Jesus when He does appear.

Your Answer to your question.

OUT OF Context. You SKIP OVER without consideration of WHO IS SENT, for the BENEFIT of the JEWS....JEWS WHO ARE NOT Messanic Jews.

Messanic Jews.....HAVE ALREADY ACCEPTED Jesus as their Christ Messiah Savior.
^^ THEY as just as SAVED and CONVERTED, as ANY GENTILE, who Accepts God and Thee Christ Jesus as their Savior!

^^ THEY shall no more PRESENCE ON EARTH, WHEN the anti-christ is introduced than a Gentile who has become Converted.

The Prepared; Messianic Jew or Gentile; who ARE faithful to God, "and" ARE converted IN Christ; ARE Prepared ...and NOT subject to ANY portion of WRATH, that begins during the INTRODUCTION of the anti-christ during the end of days Tribulation.

The JEWS IN Jerusalem, ( and any bystanding Gentiles), will be SENT, 2 Witnesses to PREACH the Message of Christ "specifically" TO THE JEWS.
The JEWS NOT prepared IN Christ, begin Accepting Christ...(and become SAVED and KILLED_
The JEWS NOT yet accepting Jesus, are directed TO RUN to the mounts of the Hills..
On the Mounts 144,000 of "THEIR LIKE BRETHREN" (TRIBES of ISRAEL...not Gentiles), are prepared and sent to TEACH those JEWS, of Christ Jesus...
And MANY of those JEWS hearing; begin Accepting Christ...and they as well shall be saved, and their BODIES KILLED (at the direction of the anti-christ).

The BIG Picture IS; Jesus was revealed 2,000+ years ago ... TO THE JEWS; that THEY may HEAR and BELIEVE ON HIM.
For a short while MANY JEWS DID...and they slacked off....many electing to REMAIN UNDER the Law, Believing in God, but rejecting Jesus.

For 2,000+ years the Gentiles have primarily jumped on board; Hearing, Learing, Accepting BOTH the God of the Jews AND Jesus the Jewish Christ Messiah Savior.

AND WHAT? Accepting Gentiles have been...
Spreading the such TEACHING....TO THE JEWS? No. The Gentiles have been Spreading such Teaching to EVERYONE, except the Jews.
Gentiles are NOT a Jews "TEACHER".

God Himself has ALWAYS Been:
a Hebrew/Jews/Israel's TEACHER, and SENT Hebrews, Jews, Israel to carry on Gods Teaching TO; Hebrews, Jews, Israel.

Nothing new that Nearing the End of Days, as IS this world NOW...Thee Lord God SHALL AGAIN, "SEND" TO THE JEWS/ ISRAEL, Gods faithful Servants and Witnesses TO MINISTER Gods Truth "TO":
the Jews/Tribes/ISRAEL..Gods PEOPLE.

You are falsely teaching "Messianic Jews" are subject to Wrath. Messanic Jews are ALREADY prepared with Conversion IN Christ Jesus.

AND IFY; Jesus' SECOND Coming, (TO Earth); is AFTER, ALL; Jew or Gentile has been "SEPARATED" from people who have "REJECTED" thee Lord God.

Taken

 

[Davy]

The OP was a QUESTION.

OP -->
The Jews must admit Jesus Before HE CAN RETURN ?

In your opening statement You introduced your own Belief regarding the TIMING of Jesus' RETURN, with expressive emphasis!





No, I did not go off on a tangent as you accuse!

If you do not want others input, do not ask questions.

Taken

Well, actually you did go off on a tangent. You tried to create a pre-trib vs. post-trib debate when that was not the topic of the thread.

 

[Davy]

You accuse; false doctrine
You accuse; people in some Messianic circles
You accuse; other people's basis.

Noone is here claiming association in Messianic circles.
Noone is here claiming what you say.
Noone is here claiming their basis.

It's a fantom claim.

....

I wish it were made up, but it ain't.

This doctrine misinterpreting what Jesus said at the end of Matthew 23 I have also heard on other Christian forums.

You are out of touch with the reality of that false doctrine because of your heeding the pre-trib rapture theories of men. Some of them are actually working with the orthodox Jews, saying it will speed up Christ's return. And if you don't know about that, which has been going on for years now, then I feel sorry for your ignorance about that too.'

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/?noredirect=on

why Jesus hasn’t come back yet (according to the New Testament) - Pete Enns

 

[Taken]

Well, actually you did go off on a tangent. You tried to create a pre-trib vs. post-trib debate when that was not the topic of the thread.

However you need to see it to be happy.

 

[Taken]

I wish it were made up, but it ain't.

This doctrine misinterpreting what Jesus said at the end of Matthew 23 I have also heard on other Christian forums.

You are out of touch with the reality of that false doctrine

You are the only one here making claims for others who are not here.

because of your heeding the pre-trib rapture theories of men.

There is an OP on that topic if you want to rant on about your disagreement.

Taken

 

[Davy]

You are the only one here making claims for others who are not here.

There is an OP on that topic if you want to rant on about your disagreement.

Taken

That doctrine has appeared here also.

 

[Taken]

That doctrine has appeared here also.

Laughable.
Your post page 1 post 18.
LOL

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I wish it were made up, but it ain't.

This doctrine misinterpreting what Jesus said at the end of Matthew 23 I have also heard on other Christian forums.

You are out of touch with the reality of that false doctrine because of your heeding the pre-trib rapture theories of men. Some of them are actually working with the orthodox Jews, saying it will speed up Christ's return. And if you don't know about that, which has been going on for years now, then I feel sorry for your ignorance about that too.'

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/?noredirect=on

why Jesus hasn’t come back yet (according to the New Testament) - Pete Enns

I know people as you say, that are demanding that what they are doing is trying to speed up Christ return and playing silly buggers with gibberish as to the so called Jews.
I believe that they are Satanist and they are always mentioning some ex Satanist who claim to be Christians now and they point out what such idiots claim. and they say go look his idiot up and I never bother, as why would I.

I believe once a Satanist always a Satanist and all that they become is a more cunning Satanist as to peddling nonsense, like idolising so called Jews and claiming that they are born again OSAS gibberish, that is truly in fact a false born again OSAS that they are peddling, as sadly it's only a worldly claim and nothing to do with the Holy Spirit at all in fact, then they say it's all about the State they call Israel, demanding hysterically that everything is all about making sure that this State rules the whole world with an iron rod, killing all who stand in it's way.
It's about the Land, they say and all of the old borders must be given back as well and that the people who live in them lands for generations have to get out, without any compensation at all, just get out or be killed ? comes across as very much like the Nazis to me, if not worse.
They do not care at all about their own nation Australia or USA or the UK etc as they want to destroy such and it's all about one State only that will dominate over all and that they themselves are wanting to be in line, so they can dictate over others under their group that they will be given to rule over.

 

[tzcho2]

@Davy
The problem with that is Jesus has already come for the house of Israel...and "It is finished." That is why He also said, "Behold, I come quickly", meaning "soon."

So -no.

 

[Davy]

I know people as you say, that are demanding that what they are doing is trying to speed up Christ return and playing silly buggers with gibberish as to the so called Jews.
I believe that they are Satanist and they are always mentioning some ex Satanist who claim to be Christians now and they point out what such idiots claim. and they say go look his idiot up and I never bother, as why would I.

I believe once a Satanist always a Satanist and all that they become is a more cunning Satanist as to peddling nonsense, like idolising so called Jews and claiming that they are born again OSAS gibberish, that is truly in fact a false born again OSAS that they are peddling, as sadly it's only a worldly claim and nothing to do with the Holy Spirit at all in fact, then they say it's all about the State they call Israel, demanding hysterically that everything is all about making sure that this State rules the whole world with an iron rod, killing all who stand in it's way.
It's about the Land, they say and all of the old borders must be given back as well and that the people who live in them lands for generations have to get out, without any compensation at all, just get out or be killed ? comes across as very much like the Nazis to me, if not worse.
They do not care at all about their own nation Australia or USA or the UK etc as they want to destroy such and it's all about one State only that will dominate over all and that they themselves are wanting to be in line, so they can dictate over others under their group that they will be given to rule over.

Pretty close brother. Satan is coming to take the throne in Jerusalem. That's who they prepare the world for today.

 

[ScottA]

So -no.

Yes..., No in that context.

But the context is misunderstood. In the context that Christ was speaking...not the world, but the Jews specifically, would not see Him again until they would see Him "coming in the clouds of heaven" - meaning, in the spirit. This is what is meant by "coming in the name of the Lord"...(in His spirit).

 

[Davy]

Jesus' meaning is they will not say that, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord", until... they see Him coming in the clouds...

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
KJV

 

[Episkopos]

Or is it...the Jews must receive Jesus before they can return?

 

[Enoch111]

until they would see Him "coming in the clouds of heaven" - meaning, in the spirit.

Why would it be "meaning in the Spirit" when that is NOT what it means?
Is Christ not in a body at present, and is that not what His resurrection is all about? Indeed, He had to admonish His apostles that He was NOT a spirit when He met with them to show them that He had indeed risen.

So changing the meaning of Scripture deliberately does not help you or anyone, although you would love to spiritualize away everything.

 

[ScottA]

Why would it be "meaning in the Spirit" when that is NOT what it means?
Is Christ not in a body at present, and is that not what His resurrection is all about? Indeed, He had to admonish His apostles that He was NOT a spirit when He met with them to show them that He had indeed risen.

So changing the meaning of Scripture deliberately does not help you or anyone, although you would love to spiritualize away everything.

You greatly misunderstand.

Christ did not commit his body to the Father, but his spirit only. Now we are his body, but not because of our flesh, but because of his spirit. Thus, when Christ comes to all, he comes in spirit...and this he said in parable that the ungodly would be confounded and not understand. Do you not understand this?

As for the resurrection of Christ, he has provided evidence of his power over death in his own resurrection. But again, you misunderstand. He did not commit his flesh to the Father, nor does flesh and blood inherit the kingdom of God, but only his spirit. On the contrary, he has committed his body to those who believe ("to live is Christ"). But none are resurrected into the kingdom in the flesh...but rather into the world, by the spirit of Christ; that in the end, "where he is, they may be also", which is with the Father, whom is spirit. So, yes, Christ did "rise up" in the flesh, but he did not "ascend" in the flesh as many believe. That is the thinking of men and of the flesh.

As for "spiritualizing", there is nothing great - that is exactly what Christ did in God. God is spirit. To speak against spiritualizing, is against God: by the spirit of anti-Christ.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Why would it be "meaning in the Spirit" when that is NOT what it means?
Is Christ not in a body at present, and is that not what His resurrection is all about? Indeed, He had to admonish His apostles that He was NOT a spirit when He met with them to show them that He had indeed risen.

So changing the meaning of Scripture deliberately does not help you or anyone, although you would love to spiritualize away everything.

The Bible points out that Jesus does not come back in the Flesh in fact.

 

[Enoch111]

Christ did not commit his body to the Father, but his spirit only.

So what? The Bible says that God raised Him from the dead, and that the apostles saw Him in His resurrected body, in which Christ also ascended to Heaven. That was a body of flesh and bones, yet a transformed body. "He did not commit His flesh to the Father" means nothing in this context. That was not even the point. When He offered up Himself as the Lamb of God, that offering was equivalent to all the whole burnt offerings in the Old Covenant. And God deemed it a perfect propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

You have taken that verse about committing His spirit out of context. That applies to the departure of Christ from His body for three day and three night. The Bible also says that He dismissed His spirit when He "gave up the ghost [spirit]". Which means that Christ was in total control over the timing of His death (which was sooner than expected of crucified ones). He also said "It is finished" before He dismissed His spirit, meaning that His sacrificial atoning work was perfectly finished.

When you try to obfuscate the resurrected body of Christ and make Him appear to be a ghost, you are promoting a Gnostic idea. Jesus categorically rejected that idea.

 

[Enoch111]

The Bible points out that Jesus does not come back in the Flesh in fact.

Correct. The resurrection of Christ in His actual body is a key teaching of the Gospel. The Gnostics tried to play around with this, while the Jews promoted a fable about the resurrection.

 

[ScottA]

So what? The Bible says that God raised Him from the dead, and that the apostles saw Him in His resurrected body, in which Christ also ascended to Heaven. That was a body of flesh and bones, yet a transformed body. "He did not commit His flesh to the Father" means nothing in this context. That was not even the point. When He offered up Himself as the Lamb of God, that offering was equivalent to all the whole burnt offerings in the Old Covenant. And God deemed it a perfect propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

You have taken that verse about committing His spirit out of context. That applies to the departure of Christ from His body for three day and three night. The Bible also says that He dismissed His spirit when He "gave up the ghost [spirit]". Which means that Christ was in total control over the timing of His death (which was sooner than expected of crucified ones). He also said "It is finished" before He dismissed His spirit, meaning that His sacrificial atoning work was perfectly finished.

When you try to obfuscate the resurrected body of Christ and make Him appear to be a ghost, you are promoting a Gnostic idea. Jesus categorically rejected that idea.

As I said...you greatly misunderstand.

You have not reconciled your assumption that what the apostles say was Jesus ascending in the flesh, with the fact that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven...and men have therefore constructed a doctrine contrary to what is actually written, which you wrongly believed.

What actually occurred, was God rose Christ from the dead in spirit and in flesh, but only his spirit (which he committed to the Father) ascended into heaven. What the apostles witnessed was his transformation "by fire" from flesh to spirit...which is the meaning of all burnt offerings. And, in "like manner" he has returned.

 

[Davy]

Correct. The resurrection of Christ in His actual body is a key teaching of the Gospel. The Gnostics tried to play around with this, while the Jews promoted a fable about the resurrection.

Actually, the fable you're promoting is from Judaism, what some call the 'dead in the ground' theory, i.e., the theory that dead flesh in the casket is raised at the resurrection.

2 Cor 5:1-3
5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Paul says that if our flesh were dissolved, we have another house not made with hands, i.e., not of flesh, one that is eternal in the heavens. He was speaking of the "spiritual body" of 1 Cor.15, as he had already covered that. He is not talking about our flesh body being converted to the "spiritual body" or resurrection body. He is comparing the "earthly house" (flesh body) with the "house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (spiritual body).


2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

In what do we groan? and what is it in us that groans? Based on what Paul said in verse 1, he is still comparing the two different types of bodies. In our flesh our spirit-soul groans, desiring to instead be clothed with the "spiritual body" ("our house which is from heaven").


3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
KJV

Something is clothed so we aren't found naked? If our soul-spirit is no longer in a flesh body, then it must be "clothed" with something else, and that is the "house which is from heaven", i.e., the "spiritual body" Paul taught back in 1 Cor.15.

In 1 Cor.15:53, Paul taught TWO CHANGES must occur to have eternal Life through Christ Jesus...

1 Cor 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

Those are 4 separate Greek words Paul used there.

1. "corruptible" - phthartos (5349, decayed, perishable)
2. "incorruption" - aphthrsia (861, incorruptibility, unending existence)
3. "mortal" - thnetos (2349, liable to die)
4. "immortality" - athanasia (110, deathlessness)

1 & 2 are about the change from a flesh body to the "spiritual body".
3 & 4 are about the change from a liable to die soul to an immortal soul.

In the resurrection there are 2 types, one for the just, and one for the unjust. Only the just, those in Christ, will have souls that have put on immortality. But both resurrection types will have the change from a flesh body to the "spiritual body".

The world to come will be one when everyone will be in the "spiritual body". Just the fact that there will be a resurrection also of the unjust at Christ's coming, the "resurrection of damnation" mentioned by our Lord Jesus, ought to make that easy to understand (John 5:28-29).