The Key to Discipleship

[APAK]

That would be impossible.

You teach some hybrid Calvinism, Mormonism, sci-fi theology, that is not connected to anything that is related to the "Gospel of the Grace of God".

This is why you bite back when anyone brings up The Cross as the Grace of God.

You're teaching.... is a bizarre "religious legalistic cocktail" that is profoundly Self righteous.

And your "higher walk in Zion" that is a blend of Mormonism and whatever other "teacher" you have borrowed from........ well. my advice, is to borrow from people who are actually born again.
Start there.
Build from that place, if you are going to play theologian.

In other words. Go directly to Paul, and stay THERE.

And saying...>"that's what i do", is too funny......so, lets not let you play that game, @Episkopos .

Behold: You are dealing with a supposed messenger of God who has a dire warning for all Christianity who are not of his unique cloth or persuasion. And with a supposed message that is either non-existent or severely garbled. A message that seems to suggest that the grace of God for salvation is given only to those who are willing to perform and work for it, even pleading for it with God in some secret way. To then eventually know that this condition is reached as in a state of sinless Nirvana. And he especially presents this mantra and thought to those with strong faith who are already walking in the spirit of the son in the Kingdom today, given by the grace of God.

To be honest to the best of my knowledge, and based on reading his posts, he has no viable message at all. If he has one he would be able to clearly articulate it, and in love and patience. I think he is confused and his personal experiences have dominated and skewed his thoughts and views and over time, and he has now developed an elitism view of himself and this accounts for why he is the one who knows the word of God. Besides, he is a 'higher walker' of course, or once walk at that altitude, and should know better than you.

I wonder if he really knows the will of God for him today as he is busy doing his own will, for God. Does he wait on the LORD. I wonder....does he have time to even listen...

Now of course there are pretenders of the faith who think they are being saved who are not. I would agree, and there are many, even most, for other various reasons. The issue here though is he uses this thought to his advantage to even to judge and condemn and accuse genuine believers in the same common mix, as Christian degenerates who lack the knowledge and experience he only possesses.

And this is the same main argument he purposely uses in many forms as he knows no one can prove him wrong or counter him in/on it.

The problem is, he uses this same main argument noticeably, in parallel with his promotion of his personal doctrine (based in part by his misapplication and misuse of Paul's words); and as the ONLY answer to supposedly most believers' self-deceptions, delusions and failures to continue to work out their salvation. And then to ward off challengers, he implements many straw-men as diversionary chaff.. Straw-men of accusatory apostacy, of most Christians, as being part of the world system, not knowing the word of God, not understanding the grace of God or of his Son, not knowing the gospel, of the common 'lower' walkers, instead of being as he, a so-called upward higher walker of the few saints. And he can never articulate this point, ever.

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[Behold]

Behold: You are dealing with a supposed messenger of God who has a dire warning for all Christianity who are not of his unique cloth or persuasion.

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He told me that Jesus is my "whipping boy"..... and that the Grace of God is "Free stuff".

If you try to get him to actually explain a NT verse, its like listening to someone from Jupiter explain how to use a chainsaw in a gold mine.

If he makes the mistake of trying to explain Salvation, then what comes out is self righteous works and hyper legalism.

I asked Him once...>"Explain why Jesus who saves you, keeps you saved""", and suddenly the insects outside could be heard as it became that quiet regarding His answer.

He can't even begin to answer that question.

 

[Episkopos]

I would bring some scriptures to address some of this, but you would just ignore them.

Like verses that back up your claims...of which there are none. Nice way to deflect and obfuscate as per usual....you are basically conceding that there is no verse in the bible that says only the elect are "saved."

You might look for a verse that says that humans are imputed with the same righteousness as God. All man-made confusion.

If there was just a little honesty...there could some progress.

 

[Episkopos]

Behold: You are dealing with a supposed messenger of God who has a dire warning for all Christianity who are not of his unique cloth or persuasion. And with a supposed message that is either non-existent or severely garbled. A message that seems to suggest that the grace of God for salvation is given only to those who are willing to perform and work for it, even pleading for it with God in some secret way.

This is commonly called faith. Not human beliefs, opinions, philosophies, ideologies...etc God only responds to faith. If you have a problem with that...take it up with God.

To then eventually know that this condition is reached as in a state of sinless Nirvana.

A funny way to describe holiness.

And he especially presents this mantra and thought to those with strong faith who are already walking in the spirit of the son in the Kingdom today, given by the grace of God.

What is garbled is the facile claim of so many that they are doing more than they are. Many will say...Lord, Lord. You would think that the words of Jesus were suspect....as opposed to your own religious opinions.

To be honest to the best of my knowledge, and based on reading his posts, he has no viable message at all.

They are not to be carnally understood. I speak in a great accuracy. far too much so, for people raised on vague bible references that are meant to be claimed by one's preferred beliefs.

If he has one he would be able to clearly articulate it, and in love and patience. I think he is confused and his personal experiences have dominated and skewed his thoughts and views and over time, and he has now developed an elitism view of himself and this accounts for why he is the one who knows the word of God. Besides, he is a 'higher walker' of course, or once walk at that altitude, and should know better than you.

The opposite is true. Few will find the narrow path...as Jesus said...and that was before all the modern distractions. You ignore the fact that I preach a double sided (2 edged sword) message that shows the meek and poor being given mercy.

The problem with our rich Western culture is that we are spoiled...having no idea how to be a servant. So then people such as yourself react from a perceived privileged status. The Pharisees also claimed to see...and therefore their sin remained. They also saw themselves as privileged.

I wonder if he really knows the will of God for him today as he is busy doing his own will, for God. Does he wait on the LORD. I wonder....does he have time to even listen...

Was that supposed to remain in your thoughts? My ministry is inward...to the church...warning those who will be rejected from the kingdom. Many will weep and be very angry at those who taught them...and those who could have warned them....but didn't. All the faux outrage and bellyaching here shows me that I'm doing my job.

Now of course there are pretenders of the faith who think they are being saved who are not. I would agree, and there are many, even most, for other various reasons. The issue here though is he uses this thought to his advantage to even to judge and condemn and accuse genuine believers in the same common mix, as Christian degenerates who lack the knowledge and experience he only possesses.

People will respond according to their condition. If someone reacts against the call to the cross...then that one is resisting dying to self and the ego that enslaves that person. These have not understood that one must first lose in order to win. A tree is known of it's fruit.

And this is the same main argument he purposely uses in many forms as he knows no one can prove him wrong or counter him in/on it.

My doctrine is measured against the whole counsel of God....as well as testimony.

The problem is, he uses this same main argument noticeably, in parallel with his promotion of his personal doctrine (based in part by his misapplication and misuse of Paul's words); and as the ONLY answer to supposedly most believers' self-deceptions, delusions and failures to continue to work out their salvation. And then to ward off challengers, he implements many straw-men as diversionary chaff.. Straw-men of accusatory apostacy, of most Christians, as being part of the world system, not knowing the word of God, not understanding the grace of God or of his Son, not knowing the gospel, of the common 'lower' walkers, instead of being as he, a so-called upward higher walker of the few saints. And he can never articulate this point, ever.

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What's so funny is that before revival people will seek God's face in earnest repentance. ALL who do this then understand their prior condition. But if you go to those same people before they repent...they will mock, accuse and generally avoid any call to repentance.

Jesus said that few will walk the narrow path. And that anyone who testified of Christ (the living Christ) would be hated for His name sake.

So I am honoured to suffer His reproach...even though that doesn't make me worthy of the higher walk. That is by God's purpose.

Paul sought to win Christ. How many understand that? Not many. So I am in that position...to seek the Lord in order to enter INTO Him to be where He is in power and holiness...as I have previously been. The fact that you dishonour what is most honourable shows that you have no experience at all in holiness. Otherwise you would tremble.

Anyone who thinks they are in the Spirit all the time while still walking in human power...is deceived.

 

[APAK]

This is commonly called faith. Not human beliefs, opinions, philosophies, ideologies...etc God only responds to faith. If you have a problem with that...take it up with God.


A funny way to describe holiness.


What is garbled is the facile claim of so many that they are doing more than they are. Many will say...Lord, Lord. You would think that the words of Jesus were suspect....as opposed to your own religious opinions.


They are not to be carnally understood. I speak in a great accuracy. far too much so, for people raised on vague bible references that are meant to be claimed by one's preferred beliefs.


The opposite is true. Few will find the narrow path...as Jesus said...and that was before all the modern distractions. You ignore the fact that I preach a double sided (2 edged sword) message that shows the meek and poor being given mercy.

The problem with our rich Western culture is that we are spoiled...having no idea how to be a servant. So then people such as yourself react from a perceived privileged status. The Pharisees also claimed to see...and therefore their sin remained. They also saw themselves as privileged.


Was that supposed to remain in your thoughts? My ministry is inward...to the church...warning those who will be rejected from the kingdom. Many will weep and be very angry at those who taught them...and those who could have warned them....but didn't. All the faux outrage and bellyaching here shows me that I'm doing my job.


People will respond according to their condition. If someone reacts against the call to the cross...then that one is resisting dying to self and the ego that enslaves that person. These have not understood that one must first lose in order to win. A tree is known of it's fruit.


My doctrine is measured against the whole counsel of God....as well as testimony.


What's so funny is that before revival people will seek God's face in earnest repentance. ALL who do this then understand their prior condition. But if you go to those same people before they repent...they will mock, accuse and generally avoid any call to repentance.

Jesus said that few will walk the narrow path. And that anyone who testified of Christ (the living Christ) would be hated for His name sake.

So I am honoured to suffer His reproach...even though that doesn't make me worthy of the higher walk. That is by God's purpose.

Paul sought to win Christ. How many understand that? Not many. So I am in that position...to seek the Lord in order to enter INTO Him to be where He is in power and holiness...as I have previously been. The fact that you dishonour what is most honourable shows that you have no experience at all in holiness. Otherwise you would tremble.

Anyone who thinks they are in the Spirit all the time while still walking in human power...is deceived.

You just have reinforced the words of my post Epi.

 

[Behold]

Paul sought to win Christ.

Jesus is in Paul, exactly as He is in all the born again.

"Christ IN YOU... the hope of glory".

Every believer is "the Temple of the Holy Spirit", and "CHRIST is that Spirit".


So, your theology is the blind theology that does not even KNOW that Jesus is "In" all the Born again.

Or as Paul said to you...."Do you know know that you are the temple of the Holy Spirit".

So, you can keep trying to "win Christ", and not understand that verse or anything else in the NT, while the real believers will rejoice that we are "in Christ" and "one with God" and "seated in heavenly places", right now.

 

[Ritajanice]

Or as Paul said to you...."Do you know know that you are the temple of the Holy Spirit".

Yes, because our spirit was Born Again, wahooo!!.....Praise God.

Only the witness of the Holy Spirit can testify with our spirit that we are Gods children....my opinion/ testimony and belief.

 

[Behold]

Yes, because our spirit was Born Again, wahooo!!.....Praise God.

Only the witness of the Holy Spirit can testify with our spirit that we are Gods children....my opinion/ testimony and belief.

Religious people are worried about behavior and sin.
For them its all about trying to perform to be accepted.
And that is actually a rejection- denial of God's Grace.

Born again people are "God aware" and "Heaven aware" and rejoice in what God has done for them through The Cross of Christ.
They are Conscious of this..
When they hear about it, they get a sort of LIFT inside.
its a JOY, a KNOWING.... its a realization of how Good God is, and how wonderful Jesus is,..... that is not about theology, or bible study or going to church.

This inner SEEING..... is a part of the new mind and it has a lot to do with realizing that its always noticed.

Lamentations 3:-22-23

 

[APAK]

Jesus is in Paul, exactly as He is in all the born again.

"Christ IN YOU... the hope of glory".

Every believer is "the Temple of the Holy Spirit", and "CHRIST is that Spirit".


So, your theology is the blind theology that does not even KNOW that Jesus is "In" all the Born again.

Or as Paul said to you...."Do you know know that you are the temple of the Holy Spirit".

So, you can keep trying to "win Christ", and not understand that verse or anything else in the NT, while the real believers will rejoice that we are "in Christ" and "one with God" and "seated in heavenly places", right now.

To be fair from a contextual view, and associated with Cor 9:19-23, Phil 3:8, Paul began focusing his life as many believers do today on Christ, even at the loss of his and their physical life. So much so that that Paul most probably never married and was either already in prison or soon would be there as a marked man. He had nothing else to lose. And his cares for the world were already gone at that point. His winning Christ was Christ himself, not to do works to be in Christ of become saved of course. He was already a believer as the other disciples.

Also, these words of Paul impress upon me that the cares of this world are worthless and count for nothing; not to get caught up in idle and no-productive religious arguments and sects, and become part of the common official church establishment who/that compromise to the world and its affairs over Christ.

Yes, the focus of Christ is all important and his spirit with me drives me to stay on course, stay spiritually active and continue on in the things that are suitable for being saved...aka ...working out my salvation.

I think this is what Epi is concerned with, and he wants to get the message out that folks need to wake up and focus more on Christ as if to win him as Paul preached. Although, Epi may think he is the only one that understands this subject in Paul's words. Many do and so do I.

 

[Lizbeth]

Like verses that back up your claims...of which there are none. Nice way to deflect and obfuscate as per usual....you are basically conceding that there is no verse in the bible that says only the elect are "saved."

You might look for a verse that says that humans are imputed with the same righteousness as God. All man-made confusion.

If there was just a little honesty...there could some progress.

We need to distinguish between what has been imputed and what has been apprehended, that's all. It's not that difficult, or too high to comprehend.

 

[Lizbeth]

And with a supposed message that is either non-existent or severely garbled.

Yes, very good point. And God is not the author of confusion. I've seen it before with another religion, and cults do this too.......unsettle and unground the mind with confusion in order to take advantage of that to plant seeds of thoughts. Often a background of intimidation involved too. Love-bombing if you agree, beatings if you don't. That all signals another spirit at work, so beware of those who operate according to this pattern.

 

[Behold]

To be fair from a contextual view, and associated with Cor 9:19-23,

The context of your verse is winning souls... leading them to Christ.
The verse has nothing to do with ""winning Christ."""

Phil 3:8,

THis verse has nothing to do with winning Christ.

This verse's context is the previous 7 verses where Paul is explaining what it means to have been perfect in the Law, at the top of the Religious Chain, .. as compared to being "in Christ".

He's making a comparison, regarding being religious, vs, being "accepted in the Beloved".

He's showing the ridiculous MIND that sees "trying to be good", as if it can be compared to the "unsearchable riches that are in Christ".

And so, that is not what Epi is trying to prove.

He is trying to prove that noone but himself is actually trying to do anything for God.
That everyone here is up to their ears in carnality, and that if they will just focus on works and self effort then they can hopefully please God.

See, his religion is all about "what i have to do"..
Whereas God's Salvation is.. 'I saved you and my Grace is your TOTAL sufficiency....

OTHERWISE..

"Apart from me (in your own power) you can do NOTHING"... Jesus teaches.

 

[APAK]

The context of your verse is winning souls... leading them to Christ.
The verse has nothing to do with ""winning Christ."""




THis verse has nothing to do with winning Christ.

This verse's context is the previous 7 verses where Paul is explaining what it means to have been perfect in the Law, at the top of the Religious Chain, .. as compared to being "in Christ".

He's making a comparison, regarding being religious, vs, being "accepted in the Beloved".

He's showing the ridiculous MIND that sees "trying to be good", as if it can be compared to the "unsearchable riches that are in Christ".

And so, that is not what Epi is trying to prove.

He is trying to prove that noone but himself is actually trying to do anything for God.
That everyone here is up to their ears in carnality, and that if they will just focus on works and self effort then they can hopefully please God.

See, his religion is all about "what i have to do"..
Whereas God's Salvation is.. 'I saved you and my Grace is your TOTAL sufficiency....

OTHERWISE..

"Apart from me (in your own power) you can do NOTHING"... Jesus teaches.

Well actually Behold, 1 Cor 9:19-23 is about both, and one leads to the other. Paul, in his frame of mind, yes, is speaking directly concerning winning souls for Christ, no doubt and no disagreement here. Although from his perspective and even my own view, he is teaching in Phil 3:8 he would then impress upon these new converts to Christ to focus on Christ as he does, and 'win' Christ so to speak. Do not get hung up over the English translation, look at the meaning of it. Christ is the prize NOT for salvation, for a LIFESTYLE beyond the taste of the Spirit of God. Behold you have to get past the initial state of becoming saved and look further, as in the NOW WHAT, seen in Paul's words.

And for completeness, here is the scripture under study: I add in 1 Cor verse 9:24 as I should have mentioned before...

(1Co 9:19) For though I was free from all, I brought myself under bondage to all, that I might gain the more.
(1Co 9:20) And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews. To them that are under the law, I became as one under the law (though I am not under the law), that I might gain those that are under the law.
(1Co 9:21) To them that are without law, as without law, not being without law to God, but under law to Christ, that I might gain (win) them that are without law.
(1Co 9:22) To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some.
(1Co 9:23) And I do all things for the gospel's sake, that I may be a joint partaker of it.
(1Co 9:24) Do you not know that they that run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run like this, so that you may attain the prize.

and Phil 3:8

(Php 3:8) Yes indeed, I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain (win) Christ,

Paul wanted his new converts to be like him in lifestyle.....

 

[Ritajanice]

Just my thoughts....

To be a disciple we must be “ Born Again “ for without the Holy Spirit we are none of His.

I believe it’s the Spirit in us who brings us to obedience and he also brings our will inline with that of the Father....it’s a daily walk, we die to self more and more each day, through the power of the Spirit...he’s at work within his children and there is no stopping him...we are being made into the image of Jesus by Gods power via his Spirit...my opinion/ testimony and belief, for what it’s worth, forever learning in Christ....
Another thought, I believe we can also hinder the will of God.....but, his will will always be done, it can’t be thwarted.....he will always get our will in harmony with his, via His Spirit.

Luke 9:23 ESV / 1,070 helpful votes​

And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes, very good point. And God is not the author of confusion. I've seen it before with another religion, and cults do this too.......unsettle and unground the mind with confusion in order to take advantage of that to plant seeds of thoughts. Often a background of intimidation involved too. Love-bombing if you agree, beatings if you don't. That all signals another spirit at work, so beware of those who operate according to this pattern.

I can well and truly relate to this Sis, so true, imo..

 

[Lizbeth]

Another thought, I believe we can also hinder the will of God.....but, his will will always be done, it can’t be thwarted.....he will always get our will in harmony with his, via His Spirit.

Sister, I agree with this......IF we are willing. I believe He will get our will in harmony with His IF we are willing to allow Him to. That's why David prayed for a willing spirit and we sometimes need to as well. It doesnt' seem that the Lord will normally over-rule our will when it concerns our personal journey with Him, so if we find we are not willing in some area we need to become willing to be made willing, and seek the Lord to make us willing. Hope that makes sense....bit of a mouthful there.

 

[Behold]

Well actually Behold, 1 Cor 9:19-23 is about both,

Actually, its not.

We dont "win Christ" by leading someone to Christ.

 

[Behold]

(1Co 9:24) Do you not know that they that run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run like this, so that you may attain the prize.

"may attain the Prize"

That is the "high calling that is In Christ".

And what is that?

That is Philippians 3:11.

Go read it., and stop guessing @APAK

Leave the guessing to Episkopos, as he's the authority on guessing and never attaining while deceiving.

 

[Cassandra]

IF we are willing. I believe He will get our will in harmony with His IF we are willing to allow Him to.

Yes--this is what separates OSAS from others--if we lose our willingness to be obedient, and do so continually, we grieve the Spirit, and IMO, are lost.

 

[APAK]

Actually, its not.

We dont "win Christ" by leading someone to Christ.

I never said that Behold. You are missing the meaning of the term in context with how Paul used it. It is AFTER we win someone to Christ is the concern.....think about it for some time and reread some of my posts...

This is the last time I will come to my defense in conversion with you on this subject that should be clear to you by now.