The Last Supper 2021

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,675
764
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
the sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single
sacrifice – Catholic Strength

I was christened an infant into the Roman Catholic Church in 1944, and
eventually attended catechism to complete First Holy Communion and
Confirmation.

My siblings are Catholic, my mother was Catholic, my eldest brother entered
the priesthood and made it to Friar before succumbing to cancer a few years
ago. My wife is a former Catholic, her dad was Catholic, his wife was
Catholic, my aunt and uncle were Catholics, and my wife's cousins are
Catholic; one of them is qualified to teach catechism.

I was loyal to Rome for the first 24 years of my life till one day in Feb 1968 I
was approached by a Conservative Baptist minister who asked me if I was
prepared for Christ's return.

Well; I must've been either asleep or absent the day that the nuns talked
about Jesus coming back because that man's question was the very first
time in my whole life that I can remember somebody telling me.

My initial reaction was alarm because I instinctively knew that were I called
on the carpet for a face-to-face with Jesus, it would not go well for me
because I had a lot to answer for. Well; I don't like being made to feel afraid
so I became indignant and demanded to know why Jesus would come back.
That's when I found out for the very first time that it was in the plan for
Christ to take over the world.

Then the minister asked me if I was going to heaven. Well; of course I had
no clue because Catholics honestly don't know what to expect when they
pass away. I was crossing my fingers while in the back of my mind dreading
the worst.

Then the man said; "Don't you know that Jesus died for your sins?"

Well; I had been taught in catechism that Jesus died for the sins of the
world; that much I knew; but honestly believed all along that he had been
an unfortunate victim of circumstances beyond his control. It was a shock to
discover that Jesus' trip to cross was deliberate, and that his Father was
thinking of me when His son passed away, viz: my sins were among the sins
of the world that Jesus took to the cross with him.

At that very instant-- scarcely a nanosecond --something took over in my
mind as I fully realized, to my great relief, that heaven was no longer out of
reach, rather, well within my grasp!

That was an amazing experience. In just the two or three minutes of
conversation with that Baptist minister, I obtained an understanding of
Jesus' crucifixion that many tedious years of RCC masses and catechism
classes had somehow failed to get across. Consequently, my confidence in
the Roman Catholic Church was shattered like a bar of peanut brittle candy
dropped on the sidewalk from the tippy top of the Chrysler building.

Long story short; I eventually went with that man to his church and, along
with him and a couple of elders, knelt at the rail down front and prayed a
really simple, naive prayer that went something like this;

"God, I know I'm a sinner. I would like to take advantage of your son's
death"

My prayer wasn't much to brag about; but it was the smartest sixteen words
I'd ever spoken up to that time.

Matt 10:32 . .Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also
acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.


NOTE: That incident took place 53 years ago. Today, I'm an elderly man of
77 who's been an ongoing student of the Bible all that time via seminars,
Sunday school classes, sermons, books, and radio programs.

Since going online back in the 1990s, I've participated on something like
forty different internet forums; some no longer in business. I also
constructed a web site for new and/or poorly trained born-again Christians.
The heavy lifting is done, but I keep the site tuned up with revisions and
new comments from time to time.
_
 

Philip James

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
4,276
3,092
113
Brandon
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Well; I must've been either asleep or absent the day that the nuns talked
about Jesus coming back because that man's question was the very first
time in my whole life that I can remember somebody telling me.

Hmmm... Seeing as how we proclaim His coming return at every Mass, i have to wonder how much you were paying attention...

It is never to late to return to the Feast!

Peace be with you!
 

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,675
764
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
Instructions for the original Passover included painting a lamb's blood on the
doorposts of people's homes. That step in the procedure was never repeated
because all Passovers following the original were for a different purpose.

The original served to protect people from God, whereas succeeding
Passovers protect nobody from God because they merely commemorate the
original. This is very important.

1 Cor 5:7 . . Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us

Now the point is: it's necessary to somehow apply Jesus' blood in order to
obtain its protection.

The original Passover's blood was applied with a brush made of a desert
shrub called hyssop. Quite a few of the expositors that I study under are
convinced that hyssop symbolizes faith. In a nutshell, the application of
Jesus' blood is accomplished by simply believing it's an effective protection
from the wrath of God.

And like the original Passover lamb's blood, Jesus' blood has to be applied
only once, and from then on its purpose is merely commemorated by a
communion service sometimes called the Lord's Supper, a.k.a. the Eucharist.

* I was taught in catechism that the wine species of the Eucharist is the
transubstantiation of Jesus' actual blood but it cannot be because the blood
of Passover lambs is not supposed to be eaten with the Seder, it was instead
painted on doorposts. In reality, the wine species is merely symbolic:
anything other than that has to be regarded as sacrilege.
_
 
  • Like
Reactions: 07-07-07

Philip James

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
4,276
3,092
113
Brandon
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Now the point is: it's necessary to somehow apply Jesus' blood in order to
obtain its protection.

Jesus Himself tells us how to apply His Blood:

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.


In reality, the wine species is merely symbolic:
anything other than that has to be regarded as sacrilege.

If its just a symbol then to hell with it..

as they make a pretense of religion but deny its power. Reject them.

Peace!
 

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,675
764
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
My next comments pertain to eternal life.

Let's be very, very sure that we do not confuse eternal life with immortality
because they are not the same-- immortality speaks of the nature of one's
body whereas eternal life speaks of the nature of one's being.

Just for the sake of discussion; let's assume for the moment that
transubstantiation effectively conveys Jesus' blood in the wine species per
John 6:54

"Whoso drinks my blood, has eternal life."

Eternal life is a kind of life that cannot die, viz: it always was, it always is,
and it always shall be, i.e. eternal life exists without intermission; in other
words; there has never been a time when eternal life didn't exist because it
never had a beginning, nor will it ever have an ending.

My point is: once someone obtains eternal life they never need seek it again
because they cannot lose it; the reason being that eternal life never needs
refreshing nor refilling: it cannot age, nor can it wear out or wear off, nor
spoil, nor pass away, viz: eternal life is divine.

This means that if transubstantiation were actually true, then people would
only have to take the Eucharist once, and never again, because that one
time would be sufficient; which would be quite an advantage. Here's why:

The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23) but seeing as how eternal life is
impervious to death, then those who have it are immune to the wages of
sin.

"Most assuredly, I say to you: he who hears my word and believes in Him
who sent me, has eternal life and shall not come into judgment, but has
passed from death into life." (John 5:24)
_
 
Last edited:

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,675
764
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
John 6:53 . . Jesus said to them: Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you
drink the Son Of Man's blood, you have no life in you.

In all the years that I was an active Roman Catholic, not once was I given
the wine species to drink. The obvious conclusion to draw is that I was dead
the entire time.

It gets worse:

John 6:56 . . He who drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him

Jesus abides in his own, not visibly, but invisibly, i.e. via his spirit.

Rom 8:9-10 . . But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the
Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ,
he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the
Spirit is life because of righteousness

So then, if transubstantiation effectively conveys Jesus' blood in the wine
species per John 6:54, then due to my being deprived of the wine species,
not only was I dead, but neither was I abiding in Christ nor he abiding in me,
and neither was I his, i.e. not one of Jesus' sheep.

I was on active duty with the 101st Airborne Division during the Cuban
missile crisis back in October of 1962. My unit was fully armed and equipped
ready to be in the air to Cuba within one hour had President Kennedy given
us the green light.

Passover is an excellent time of year for many of us to remember how near
we came to eternal suffering at one time or another due to close brushes
with death before we were saved.
_
 

Philip James

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
4,276
3,092
113
Brandon
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
This means that if transubstantiation were actually true, then people would
only have to take the Eucharist once, and never again, because that one
time would be sufficient;

It would be a cold marriage indeed, whos bride never again received her groom...

Peace be with you!
 

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,675
764
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
It would be a cold marriage indeed, whos bride never again received her
groom.

Imagine a groom betrothed to a vampire who not only wants to drink his
blood but also cannibalize his body from time to time! (chuckle) That
would make for an interesting honeymoon.
_
 

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,675
764
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
FAQ: Why are wafers wrong for the Communion service?

A: Jesus didn't give his men wafers that night; he gave them pieces of torn
bread. Things like biscuits, cookies, wafers, and crackers are too nice; they
fail to speak of the violence done to Jesus' body the next day.

The man that emerged from the three hours of darkness on the cross was so
badly injured that even his own mother wouldn't have recognized him had
she not been there to see for herself.

Isa 52:14 . . Just as there were many who were appalled at him-- his
appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man, and his form marred
beyond human likeness

Did the Romans do that to Jesus? No; Jesus' destruction was the handiwork
of his own beloved benefactor.

Isa 53:10 . . It was Jehovah's will to crush him and cause him to suffer

If God would do something like that to His own son; think what might He have
in store for folk who mock Jesus' crucifixion, and write it off as a silly fantasy.
_
 
Last edited:

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,675
764
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
Luke 22:19 . . He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to
them, saying: This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.

1Cor 11:23-24 . . I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you:
The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had
given thanks, he broke it and said: This is my body, which is for you; do this
in remembrance of me.

The bread that Jesus served his men isn't specifically identified as either
leavened or unleavened. It's translated from the Greek word artos; which
basically speaks of ordinary bread; but not always because artos is
somewhat ambiguous.

For example Jesus called the sacred bread artos (Matt 12:3-4). Well, for
sure that particular bread is not ordinary bread. According to Lev 24:5 it's
only ingredient is virgin flour, i.e. the sacred bread was unleavened.

* This is important because the sacred bread wasn't food offered to God,
rather food blessed of God and offered to the priests. Well; we can't imagine
God offering His priests bread made from fermented dough, rather, bread
made from the best and the freshest ingredients. (cf. John 6:26-58)

So we can safely assume that bread described as artos is nondescript; and a
pretty weak argument that Jesus and his men ate the wrong kind of bread
with their Seder.


FAQ: What constitutes unleavened bread?

A: The essential consideration when undertaking unleavened bread is age.

Given time, fresh dough will spoil on its own without the addition of yeasts
and/or starters because all flour, no matter how carefully it's milled and
packaged, contains a percentage of naturally-occurring fungi.

Back in the day, there were no sanitary, indoor facilities with which to grind
flour; in point of fact, they used stones exposed to the open air so their
product was no doubt contaminated with far more fungi than in our day;
which means that back in Moses' day-- and in Jesus' day too --there was no
such thing as flour containing zero yeasts. It all contained yeasts, more or
less, and without refrigeration and there was no practical way to stop fresh
dough from fermenting.

Passover is supposed to be eaten with bread made from fresh dough rather
than dough that's been allowed time to ferment. Sourdough bread is safe for
human consumption, but it doesn't convey a sense of urgency. Fresh dough
for dinner bread is the dough of choice when people are in a hurry to get fed
and get going.

Ex 12:11 . . This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your
belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste

Ex 12:38-39 . . And a mixed multitude also went up with them, along with
flocks and herds, a very large number of livestock. And they baked the
dough which they had brought out of Egypt into cakes of unleavened bread.
For it had not become leavened, since they were driven out of Egypt and
could not delay, nor had they prepared any provisions for themselves.

(cf. Gen 18:6 & Gen 19:3)
_
 

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,675
764
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
FAQ: Does unleavened bread for Passover have to be made with only flour
and water?


A: To my knowledge unleavened bread for Passover can be made with any
ingredients you desire except for one very unacceptable material: fermented
dough, a.k.a. starter.

1Cor 5:6 . . Do you not know that a little leaven, leavens the whole lump?

That's actually saying that a little ferment, will cause an entire batch of fresh
dough to spoil and thus render it no longer virgin.

I suspect it's for that very reason that God requires the Jews to ensure there
is no fermented dough anywhere in their homes before they start making
bread for Passover lest they inadvertently contaminate their fresh dough
with remnants of an older dough (Ex 12:15 and Ex 12:19). Nowadays some
Jews even go so far as to either discard, donate, give away, or sell all their
old cookware and buy brand spanking new kitchen equipment for preparing
their Passover bread.


FAQ: Is it okay to bake in an oven?

A: To my knowledge, the Bible does not specify a method for cooking
unleavened bread. Sarah made hers on a griddle (Gen 18:6). I'd imagine
you could even boil it to make dumplings. (Can't boil the lamb, the whole
critter has to be roasted with fire: Gen 12:9)


FAQ: What about the size and shape?

A: I really don't think that matters; nor does it matter how the bread is
served. Get creative; enjoy your food, and have fun. Passover night may
have been grim for the Egyptians but it was a joyous event for the Jews;
they were getting out of Dodge free as emancipated people.


FAQ: What's with the bitter herbs? (Ex 12:8)

A: Nondescript sauces and/or dips, e.g. John 13:26.

FAQ: Didn't Jesus have wine with his last supper? Where'd that come from?

A: God didn't command wine for a beverage in the 12th chapter of Exodus;
it became a man-made, ethnic tradition; which doesn't make it eo ipso bad.
Although wine with Passover dinner is a rabbinical invention, Jesus didn't
dispute it. The Lord was sometimes a bit peeved with the Jews' traditions;
but not always since they were his heritage too as well as theirs. (cf. Matt
23:23)
_
 

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,675
764
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
Hypothetically, some of Moses' people kill their lambs, roast them with fire,
and using hyssop, paint their lambs' blood around the doors of their homes.
But the people bake the wrong bread for dinner that night: it's leavened
instead of unleavened.

What will happen when the destroyer comes through the Jews' community?
Will the firstborn sons in those homes be executed that night?

No; and the reason why is because Jehovah will only be looking for the
lamb's blood around the door; that's all. He will not be looking inside homes
to examine what people are eating.

Ex 12:23 . . For Jehovah will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and
when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, Jehovah
will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto
your houses to smite you.

Again, hypothetically, some of Moses' people go thru all the correct motions,
but this time they butcher their lambs into convenient pieces instead of
cooking them whole.

Will the firstborn sons in those homes be executed?

No; and the reason why is because Jehovah will only be looking for the
lamb's blood around the door; that's all. He will not be looking inside homes
to examine what people are eating.

Again, hypothetically, some of Moses' people go thru all the correct motions,
but this time they eat their lambs with sweet spices instead of bitter.

Will the firstborn sons in those homes be executed?

No; and the reason why is because God will only be looking for the lamb's
blood around the door; that's all. He will not be looking inside homes to
examine what people are eating.

Again, hypothetically, some of Moses' people go thru all the correct motions,
but this time their firstborn son is out for a stroll with his girlfriend at
midnight when Jehovah comes thru. Will that son be slain? Well; I should
think so because the blood made his house a place of safety and he was not
in it.

Ex 12:22 . . And you shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood
that is in the basin, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the
blood that is in the basin; and none of you shall go out at the door of his
house until the morning.

I think it goes without saying that "none of you" included firstborn sons;
them especially!

In other words: the blood of the lambs only protected sons when in their
houses, just as Noah's ark only protected people when in the ark, and just
as Jesus' blood only protects people when in Christ, viz: in his body.
_
 

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,675
764
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
1Cor 10:6-7 . . Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written:
The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to play.

The Bible doesn't provide much detail at Ex 32:1-6 as to what went on in
camp while Moses was up on the mountain. But one thing we know for sure
is that there was a golden calf; and the "eat and drink" to which the apostle
refers was a ritual where people sacrificed to the calf and afterwards
consumed the sacrifice as an act of communion with it; as a sort of
unlicensed Passover celebration:

"Aaron answered them: Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your
sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me. So all the
people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. He took what they
handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it
with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you
up out of Egypt. (Ex 32:2-4)

Though the idol is singular, the grammar refers to it in the plural and that's
likely because the Hebrew word translated "gods" is a plural noun. That last
sentence really should say "this is your God, O Israel, who brought you up
out of Egypt" because the next two verses say that their celebration was in
honor of Jehovah. (vs. 5 and 6)

Now, it's true that Jesus is the captain of our salvation in a manner similar to
how Jehovah was the captain of their salvation; but I think we need to be
careful how we honor him in that capacity. In other words: it's probably a
good idea to avoid building a shrine for Jesus because sure enough people
will begin kneeling before it and praying to it and maybe even kissing its feet
so often that they wear one of its big toes down like Peter's in Rome.
_
 

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,675
764
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
Christians sometimes accept invitations to their Jewish friends' homes for
Passover. Well; I think this is not a good idea because Passover is a uniquely
Jewish memorial.

I would say that if someone isn't born an Hebrew, nor a proselyte converted
to Judaism, then the Seder is strictly off limits and their Jewish friends
should know better than to invite them.

Ex 12:43 . . No foreigner is to eat of it
_
 

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,675
764
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
FAQ: Are Passovers observed away from Jerusalem acceptable?

A: They are unacceptable. (Deut 16:5-6)

Passover is a pilgrimage type of feast. If Jews are out of country and can't
make it to Israel on time, they have to wait and do theirs one month later
than usual (Num 9:5-11). Everyone who partakes of a Seder this coming
March 27, 2021 will be doing so illegally should they do so while here at
home.

In addition, the lamb has to be roasted with fire and eaten entirely intact. It
must not be butchered (Ex 12:9). Modern Seders consist of dismembered
lambs. Everyone who partakes of a lamb in that condition will be doing so
illegally.

The rules governing Passover are specific (Num 9:12). Failure to comply
with them merits execration. (Num 9:13 and Deut 27:26)
_