The Latest on Calvin
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OK Is this an _un-thread? Where everything is backwards? ;)
As in...do you know Jack? No, you don't know Jack! ???
If so...then M.Calvin was the epitome of kindness and patience towards those he disagreed with. Just wish he was here to add his fragrance of Christ to the forum. !
(OK so how am I doing?)
As in...do you know Jack? No, you don't know Jack! ???
If so...then M.Calvin was the epitome of kindness and patience towards those he disagreed with. Just wish he was here to add his fragrance of Christ to the forum. !
(OK so how am I doing?)
I like that.
If one is not right....
the other one surely will be.
Do you know what opposites are?
OzSpen
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Enoch,
I agree with these sentiments. The WCF is regarded as the subordinate standard of faith (to the Bible) in Presbyterian churches in my country. Too often some ministers quote the WCF rather than the Bible.
I agree that there is much teaching in the WCF that is biblical and with which I agree.
What do you consider are the WCF teachings that are 'contrary to Scripture'?
Oz
OzSpen
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I can't imagine Calvin agreeing with some of Osteen's theology.
OzSpen
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CHOSEN CHOSEN CHOSEN CHOSEN CHOSEN CHOSEN CHOSEN
Rollo,
There is one problem with your graphic. The one chosen is chosen by use of a human hand!
:Oz
Let's take just one example (which impacts Five Point Calvinism):
Chapter 3
Of God’s Eternal Decree
1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:[a]...
The plain meaning of that statement is that God has predetermined and foreordained all things that happen on earth, which is not true. God could not possibly foreordain all the sin and evil that has existed, presently exists, and will exist on earth. That would be monstrous.
The Scriptures to support the above statement are:
[a]. Ps. 33:11. The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
Eph. 1:11. … in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.
Heb. 6:17. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath.
But Psalm 33:11 does NOT support that. What it does say is that:
1. The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever...
2. the thoughts of his heart [are] to all generations.
This speaks of the IMMUTABILITY of God (as confirmed in Heb 6:17), not that He has decreed that everything will happen according to His predetermination.
Then let's look at Eph 1:11 ...in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.
The context makes it clear that this statement applies to Christians, not the whole of humanity.
1. Christians have been freely granted an eternal inheritance in Christ
2. Those who have been justified by grace have been predestined according to God's purpose (not for salvation but) "to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom 8:29)
3. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (Rom 8:28)
God's will from before the foundation of the world was to not only save sinners by His grace, but to give them an eternal inheritance, and perfect and glorify them. This is not a "decree" but "the counsel of His own will" i.e. according to His perfect will.
Because you don't like his theology you judge him as ungodly.
Please read again a detailed biograph of Calvin and try to understand what Godly behaviour is.
So John Knox, the puritans/pilgrim fathers and large chunks of Christianity are not actually Christian.
I NEVER say someone is not Christian.
That is not for me to know.
I can have an idea when someone calls themselves Christian and then proceed to
degrade their brothers in Christ with insults and mockery, which I see even on this forum. Although I don't know if they're saved...I can say their behavior is not Christianly. We cannot judge souls,,,but we can judge behavior. The N.T. tells us to help our brothers...we cannot help if we don't see the problem.
What I DID SAY is that the calvinist God is NOT the God of the bible.
He is NOT a God involved in our care and wll-being when the N.T. tells us God cared so much for us that He actually became part of time in the incarnation.
He is a just God. A just God gives each of His creation the possibility to be saved, as per His plans in Genesis 3:15 and 1 Peter 1:19
God is merciful. He judges all impartially:
1 peter 1:17 God will judge all impartially according to each man's work.
OzSpen
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Wind,
That is a false accusation. I have been reading Calvin's Institutes today to great advantage. His systematic theology has much valuable information and exposition with which I agree. I'm in the midst of preparing an article for my homepage, Truth Challenge, that compares Calvin's teaching with the TULIP of the Synod of Dort.
Calvin died in 1564. The Synod of Dort at which TULIP was formulated was in 1618-19, so Calvin was not available to attend the kangaroo court of Dort.
It's not that I 'don't like his theology', I find his soteriology (doctrine of salvation) to be unbiblical. I'm putting that into writing for the Internet to upload in the near future.
I'm finding Calvinists have varying understandings on whether or not Calvin taught limited atonement/definite redemption.
Oz
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OzSpen
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GodsGrace,
The late R C Sproul, a strong Calvinist, wrote this in his book, Willing to Believe:
I agree with Packer and Johnston2 that Arminianism contains un-Christian elements in it and that their view of the relationship between faith and regeneration is fundamentally un-Christian. Is this error so egregious that it is fatal to salvation? People often ask if I believe Arminians are Christians. I usually answer, “Yes, barely.” They are Christians by what we call a felicitous inconsistency (p. 24, emphasis added).
Oz
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Grailhunter
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Hi Oz,
Of course every feeling one has for his brothers in Christ must come from the attitude of the church he attends.
Calvinists have the feeling of superiority because they feel that they are able to accept this "just" god that no one else is able to accept. They foucs on God's sovereignty as if only they believe in a sovereign God.
Everyone that believes will be saved. I just don't know how angry God will be that He was so misrepresented here on earth.
They take away His love,
His mercy and
His justice
when the bible is FULL of His above attributes.
(I've been to churches that teach we are to love our brethren)
To call Arminians "un-Christian" because they reject Calvinism is in itself un-Christian. And downright dishonest. While I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian, for anyone to claim that those opposed to Calvinism are un-Christian would be pure rubbish.
When you examine the Five Articles of the Remonstrants (representing the Arminian position adn being parallel to the Five Points of Calvinism) there is absolutely nothing un-Christian there. It is simply a different interpretation, some of it in agreement with the Calvinists.
Article I refutes Unconditional Election and quotes this passage as their belief: “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him”. TOTALLY BIBLICAL
Article II refutes Limited Atonement and says "That, accordingly, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer..." TOTALLY BIBLICAL
Article III agrees with Total Depravity according to Calvinism and fails to shown that the power of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit bring sinners to the Savior. UNBIBLICAL (teaches that the New Birth precedes repentance and faith).
Article IV refutes Irresistible Grace and says "But with respect to the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, since it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Spirit (Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places)...." TOTALLY BIBLICAL
Article V agrees with the Perseverance of the Saints and says "That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory..." It does NOT says that believers can lose their salvation, but that there may be some question about the following: "But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind." AMBIGUOUS.
Calvinists always state that if one is not calvinist then he is arminian.
NOT TRUE.
I agree with what you've stated..I also cannot consider myself an arminian.
Anyone who believes Jesus is God and rose from the dead is a Christian, also to my understanding. Their doctrine may not be the same as mine, but I believe we do belong to the same Body of Christ...His Church.
You claim Calvin did not teach the God of the bible, so it follows that those who learnt from Calvin and taught what he taught were not teaching about God or about Christianity. Those who do not teach about the God of the bible are not Christian.
Oh my. Heaven will be sooooo empty.
If a person is trusting in Jesus and doing their best to live as a disciple,
they will certainly be saved.
Because their doctrine is wrong does not make them unsaved.
I DO believe that God is misrepresented in calvinism and that this god was NEVER known BEFORE 1,500 AD..and probably God won't be too happy about this....
But will it cause the person to become lost?
ONLY if it affects their life in the sense that they are not living it for God because they're so sure they're saved and no matter what they do they will still be saved.
If they believe this,,,then their soul IS in danger.
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