The Latest on Calvin

[OzSpen]

Well that is not the doctrine of only extreme Calvinists. That is Reformed Theology as expressed in their confessions (statements) of faith. Many of those who go to Reformed or Presbyterian churches may not even have read these confessions and digested them.

Enoch,

Not all Presbyterian and Reformed denominations support 5-point Calvinism. There are 4-point Calvinists called Amyraldians who do not believe in limited atonement but endorse the other 4 points.

Calvin himself believed in double-predestination (i.e. predestination to salvation and predestination to damnation). See my article: Did John Calvin believe in double predestination?

I'm researching an article now on whether Calvin supported all of the TULIP points. I'm finding support for TUIP but he gives L weak support. The article is still in process of research.

Oz

 

[APAK]

APAK,

However, from a biblical NT view, is there teaching that demonstrates Christians should endorse the secular govts in capital punishment of non-Trinitarian heretics? Yes, there is biblical teaching on what to do with those who proclaim heresy/false teaching (2 Peter 2:1-3 NIV):

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them – bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.​

Throughout the NT, I do not find any endorsement of what Calvin did in agreeing to the capital punishment of the heretic, Servetus.

Oz

OzSpen: Intriguing subject...

Well I reckon you are suggesting that a believer per 2 Peter 2:1-3 has the perfect knowledge of the truth and operates that way in life all the time. And of course, I cannot agree to that. Yes, it has been given to us and we partake of the divine nature of God through his Son, however how we actually use it and perform with, and in it at times is another story. We get it very wrong at times and usually regret that we did not operate under the will of the Spirit of God. History records this cyclical experience.

And the other key issue is what do we call heresy or who is a heretic, how do we define it, and was does the scripture call it. This has been messed up in the halls of men’s minds as well.

As a Christ believer, I do not support government action on either side of the argument; whether to condemn heretics and non-heretics, for one basic and glaring reason. We are dealing with a governmental institution, born out of this fallen word of fallen spirits. What do they really know of the truth and then who is the real heretic?

I would speculate though that in the future there shall be a merger of the new emergent ‘church’ and government; that will support capital punishment collectively and the hunt for the heretic shall be the new raision d’etre doctrine of spiritual self-esteem, love and harmony that the world and its spirits shall welcome and gladly embrace.

I agree that Calvin should have stayed out of the affairs of other believers in Christ, as I assume that Servetus was a believer. And then to get the government implicated and use their mindless power and politics to squelch and conquer ‘their’ new risen tide of problem for the benefit and sake of the State and people.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

 

[APAK]

Welcome back again neighbor of my part of Florida.

You do bring a great burst of enthusiastic energy that is welcoming to me...bless you and family....APAK

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yo, Bro, whaz up?
I just moved to the south central heartland of the Bible belt in Georgia
My wife and I are causing a stir every where we go.
Praying in the Spirit, prophesying, seeing God do miracles everyday, they say "Get lost, you're causing trouble"!
We found a church we thought was for us, but but it turned out to be dominionism, name it and claim it, etc....
Now we go to a Presbyterian church.
Never went to one before, but this one seems pretty good, even though the pastor didn't show up yesterday to our meeting to discuss doctrine.
I wonder what that means?
Anyway, the "I Like Jack" campaign is doing pretty good, as it should since Jack comes from God.

 

[APAK]

Yo, Bro, whaz up?
I just moved to the south central heartland of the Bible belt in Georgia
My wife and I are causing a stir every where we go.
Praying in the Spirit, prophesying, seeing God do miracles everyday, they say "Get lost, you're causing trouble"!
We found a church we thought was for us, but but it turned out to be dominionism, name it and claim it, etc....
Now we go to a Presbyterian church.
Never went to one before, but this one seems pretty good, even though the pastor didn't show up yesterday to our meeting to discuss doctrine.
I wonder what that means?
Anyway, the "I Like Jack" campaign is doing pretty good, as it should since Jack comes from God.

Man moved up a couple of hundred miles....anyway whatever you both enjoy and where you are happy..
I went to a Presbyterian church for someone's funeral service a couple of months back. Still a little stuffy for me...depends on the preacher and if their Bible Study is for real and thriving.

Yes, indeed, Jack definitely comes from God. And I will cling to this Jack all the days of my life....this Jack is special to me.

Calvin, for what he said and did, and I really do not know all he wrote and claimed, regardless, he had scripture right in many areas that I also agree with....I'm glad I'm saved as you are also...my Spirit moves in me and makes quite a stir to those he loves including you mate...APAK

 

[Enoch111]

even though the pastor didn't show up yesterday to our meeting to discuss doctrine. I wonder what that means?

That should be a red flag.

 

[Enoch111]

Anyway, the "I Like Jack" campaign is doing pretty good, as it should since Jack comes from God.

This is another red flag. Promoting any man is not a good thing, particularly John Calvin.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

This is another red flag. Promoting any man is not a good thing, particularly John Calvin.

One person likes Trump, another likes Calvin.
They're all the same to me.
As long as they promote Jesus Christ.

 

[Enoch111]

Not all Presbyterian and Reformed denominations support 5-point Calvinism.

Well the Westminster Confession of Faith is supposed to be their Statement of Faith, and members are supposed to give assent to those doctrines. The five points of Calvinism are all found in there.

This is not to say that everything in the Westminster Confession is wrong. In fact a lot of it is OK. But there definitely are some things which are actually contrary to Scripture.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Well the Westminster Confession of Faith is supposed to be their Statement of Faith, and members are supposed to give assent to those doctrines. The five points of Calvinism are all found in there.

This is not to say that everything in the Westminster Confession is wrong. In fact a lot of it is OK. But there definitely are some things which are actually contrary to Scripture.

I think that is better than all the many churches out there today that have a perfect written statement of faith, but than practice something else, trying to be secretive about it.

About 25 years ago I found a church bulletin in an old Bible dated 1953 for a Presbyterian church.
The title in large letters said "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN".
People in a church make up what is right and wrong, not a church written document.

 

[APAK]

As in any community, all politics is local and so too is its true religion of doctrines or spirituality - despite its obedience to its franchise owners. i.e., the official 'church' authorities and their policies in all the usual garden variety types of denominations - Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, Anglican, Baptist etc....APAK

 

[Nancy]

OzSpen: Intriguing subject...

Well I reckon you are suggesting that a believer per 2 Peter 2:1-3 has the perfect knowledge of the truth and operates that way in life all the time. And of course, I cannot agree to that. Yes, it has been given to us and we partake of the divine nature of God through his Son, however how we actually use it and perform with, and in it at times is another story. We get it very wrong at times and usually regret that we did not operate under the will of the Spirit of God. History records this cyclical experience.

And the other key issue is what do we call heresy or who is a heretic, how do we define it, and was does the scripture call it. This has been messed up in the halls of men’s minds as well.

As a Christ believer, I do not support government action on either side of the argument; whether to condemn heretics and non-heretics, for one basic and glaring reason. We are dealing with a governmental institution, born out of this fallen word of fallen spirits. What do they really know of the truth and then who is the real heretic?

I would speculate though that in the future there shall be a merger of the new emergent ‘church’ and government; that will support capital punishment collectively and the hunt for the heretic shall be the new raision d’etre doctrine of spiritual self-esteem, love and harmony that the world and its spirits shall welcome and gladly embrace.

I agree that Calvin should have stayed out of the affairs of other believers in Christ, as I assume that Servetus was a believer. And then to get the government implicated and use their mindless power and politics to squelch and conquer ‘their’ new risen tide of problem for the benefit and sake of the State and people.

Bless you,

APAK

Good post Apak,
"I would speculate though that in the future there shall be a merger of the new emergent ‘church’ and government; that will support capital punishment collectively and the hunt for the heretic shall be the new raision d’etre doctrine of spiritual self-esteem, love and harmony that the world and its spirits shall welcome and gladly embrace."
It will be back to the Colosseum for Christians

 

[GodsGrace]

That same remedy was denied by Servetus.
God's punishment for All who deny him is eternal banishment. Those who condem Calvin forget how strict God is with unrepentant sinners.

Just as critics of Calvin ignore the facts that Geneva called him to serve them and that he worked himself to death in their service.

Poor guy. I really feel his pain.
Look...every denomination has its skeletons in the closet....
The least we could do is accept them and declare that men are sinful and admit that they do wrong --- instead of trying to protect someone that clearly contributed willingly to the death of many...not just Servetus.

 

[GodsGrace]

One person likes Trump, another likes Calvin.
They're all the same to me.
As long as they promote Jesus Christ.

It's not the same R,,,
When we promote a man it's called a cult.

And Calvin certainly does not promote the God of the bible,,,
but an unknown God that the rest of Christianity does not recognize.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good post Apak,
"I would speculate though that in the future there shall be a merger of the new emergent ‘church’ and government; that will support capital punishment collectively and the hunt for the heretic shall be the new raision d’etre doctrine of spiritual self-esteem, love and harmony that the world and its spirits shall welcome and gladly embrace."
It will be back to the Colosseum for Christians

Nancy, OzSpen said the above...
Not Apak.
(I think).

 

[GodsGrace]

This is another red flag. Promoting any man is not a good thing, particularly John Calvin.

Right.
Maybe that pastor doesn't care to discuss his doctrine.
Maybe he'll just surprise everybody with it a little bit at a time.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

It's not the same R,,,
When we promote a man it's called a cult.

And Calvin certainly does not promote the God of the bible,,,
but an unknown God that the rest of Christianity does not recognize.

I like Joel Osteen, 2nd to Jack.....

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

CHOSEN CHOSEN CHOSEN CHOSEN CHOSEN CHOSEN CHOSEN