The Latest on Calvin

[Grailhunter]

Oh my. Heaven will be sooooo empty.

If a person is trusting in Jesus and doing their best to live as a disciple,
they will certainly be saved.

Because their doctrine is wrong does not make them unsaved.
I DO believe that God is misrepresented in calvinism and that this god was NEVER known BEFORE 1,500 AD..and probably God won't be too happy about this....

But will it cause the person to become lost?

ONLY if it affects their life in the sense that they are not living it for God because they're so sure they're saved and no matter what they do they will still be saved.
If they believe this,,,then their soul IS in danger.

You are talking to someone that love and faith does not matter because God forces it. Grace does not matter because it was predetermined.
There sins are held against them even though God forced them to do it. There is no difference between force and predestination when it comes to God.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Oh my. Heaven will be sooooo empty.

If a person is trusting in Jesus and doing their best to live as a disciple,
they will certainly be saved.

Because their doctrine is wrong does not make them unsaved.
I DO believe that God is misrepresented in calvinism and that this god was NEVER known BEFORE 1,500 AD..and probably God won't be too happy about this....

But will it cause the person to become lost?

ONLY if it affects their life in the sense that they are not living it for God because they're so sure they're saved and no matter what they do they will still be saved.
If they believe this,,,then their soul IS in danger.

No heaven won't be empty God knew who he was going to save before he created the universe and as you rightly say ones doctrine dosn't stop anyone being saved. ( JW and Mormon etc theology apart.)

That said you are makind a massive assumption that a false view of God will lead to a right view of Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

No heaven won't be empty God knew who he was going to save before he created the universe and as you rightly say ones doctrine dosn't stop anyone being saved. ( JW and Mormon etc theology apart.)

That said you are makind a massive assumption that a false view of God will lead to a right view of Jesus.

Please explain your second paragraph.
I don't know what you mean.
There is only one God,,,and Jesus has revealed that God.

 

[Enoch111]

That said you are making a massive assumption that a false view of God will lead to a right view of Jesus.

This is properly applicable to the Calvinistic view of God who picks some for salvation and others for damnation, then makes sure that Jesus died only for the elect. That is called a travesty of Bible truth.

 

[aspen]

But what about Hobbes?

 

[farouk]

If it's biblical, maybe you'd like to quote some scripture?

Saying it's biblical does not make it so.

Your theology claims man has no free will.
Could you post some scripture that shows this?

Could you comment on Philemon 1:14?
Paul clearly states that he wishes P to use his own FREE WILL.

14but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

Ephesians 2.1-9 is a very searching passage.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

No heaven won't be empty God knew who he was going to save before he created the universe and as you rightly say ones doctrine dosn't stop anyone being saved. ( JW and Mormon etc theology apart.)

That said you are makind a massive assumption that a false view of God will lead to a right view of Jesus.

No person is saved (or not saved) via their ability to pass a theology test.
Rather, we are saved by the grace of God and accepting Christ as our Savior.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ephesians 2.1-9 is a very searching passage.

I read it in two different bibles.

I really can understand how these verses can be changed to mean what someone wants them to mean. I'm very sorry that the writers were not more careful with their wording.

I think the reason they weren't that careful is because they had NO CONCEPT of God picking us....they just assumed it was a given and that everyone believe this so they could write without giving any attention to every single word.

Let me go thru all the alerts and then I'll come back to this and give you an exegesis of those verses because it'll take some time.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Please explain your second paragraph.
I don't know what you mean.
There is only one God,,,and Jesus has revealed that God.

Calvin taught about the God found in the bible and about Jesus as found in the bible/

If he had taught about a false God then his teaching about Jesus would not have matched his teaching about God.

Those who dismiss Calvin as a false teacher know nothing about Calvin or theology.

 

[Windmillcharge]

This is properly applicable to the Calvinistic view of God who picks some for salvation and others for damnation, then makes sure that Jesus died only for the elect. That is called a travesty of Bible truth.

Yes the bible is wrong when it say those God foreknew etc etc etc

 

[Windmillcharge]

No person is saved (or not saved) via their ability to pass a theology test.
Rather, we are saved by the grace of God and accepting Christ as our Savior.

Totaly agree.

 

[aspen]

Calvin taught about the God found in the bible and about Jesus as found in the bible/

If he had taught about a false God then his teaching about Jesus would not have matched his teaching about God.

Those who dismiss Calvin as a false teacher know nothing about Calvin or theology.

Sort of like Calvin failing to recognize his theology in modern Calvinists?

 

[Enoch111]

Yes the bible is wrong when it say those God foreknew etc etc etc

No, it is you who are wrong in MISINTERPRETING foreknowledge, election, and predestination.

 

[Windmillcharge]

No, it is you who are wrong in MISINTERPRETING foreknowledge, election, and predestination.

So what does it mean when the bible4 says those God fore knew, he also chose and predestined?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

So what does it mean when the bible4 says those God fore knew, he also chose and predestined?

From the non-Calvinist viewpoint:
God gave men free will to act.
God also knows how you're going to use that free will to act (perfect foreknowledge)
God also knows which people will use that free will to act in X way to help Him and has chosen them to do so. Example: God knew Moses would be there and ready to serve Him, so God knew that He (God) would come as the burning bush and ask Moses to serve Him.
Likewise God knows who is going to choose to accept His gift and be saved.

This is different the Cavlinist viewpoint starting with the very first line: free will. For a non-Calvinist, accepting God and serving God are all things done not because someone forced it, but out of voluntary love. Likewise those whom are damned are damned because they choose to reject God. In Calvinism: everything is forced.

 

[Enoch111]

So what does it mean when the bible4 says those God fore knew, he also chose and predestined?

It is extremely simple if we avoid the Calvinistic interpretation.

In His divine foreknowledge God saw all those who would respond to the Gospel and obey it. Therefore they would be justified by grace through faith. But that would not be the conclusion of the matter. God would eventually perfect them and glorify them so that they would be "conformed to the image of His Son". Therefore He would also predestine them for this purpose, and they would be the elect or chosen of God for eternity.

This is totally consistent with the Gospel, which offers eternal life to whosoever will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Calvin taught about the God found in the bible and about Jesus as found in the bible/

If he had taught about a false God then his teaching about Jesus would not have matched his teaching about God.

Those who dismiss Calvin as a false teacher know nothing about Calvin or theology.

Did I ever answer to this!!!!

Oh my.
You mean John got it RIGHT....
and all those other dumb theologians that came before him for 1,500 years
got it wrong!!!

You think you could mail me a copy of the institutes ASAP!!
Oh. Forget it. I have it already.
It has a place all by itself in my theology section.

 

[GodsGrace]

So what does it mean when the bible4 says those God fore knew, he also chose and predestined?

You must be speaking about
Romans 8:29-30
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Now, just using common sense, do you really believe that ALL OTHER Christian denominations DO NOT believe in predestination and ONLY CALVIN was right?

Let's look at Romans together:

verse 29: Those that God foreknew.......He foreknew who would want to be saved. These persons that God FOREKNEW would want to be saved....HE PREDESTINED them,,,yes,,,but for what?

To become conformed to the image of His Son.

God predestined that they would become conformed to the image of His Son...NOT that He was predestinating them to salvation.

verse 30: God "called" all those that He foreknew would want to be saved..and when we came to God and became saved...He declared us not guilty and justified.
He gave us right standing with Him and promised us glory. (after death).

God does not predestine WHO will be saved.
God predestines HOW we will be saved.

 

[Nancy]

You must be speaking about
Romans 8:29-30
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Now, just using common sense, do you really believe that ALL OTHER Christian denominations DO NOT believe in predestination and ONLY CALVIN was right?

Let's look at Romans together:

verse 29: Those that God foreknew.......He foreknew who would want to be saved. These persons that God FOREKNEW would want to be saved....HE PREDESTINED them,,,yes,,,but for what?

To become conformed to the image of His Son.

God predestined that they would become conformed to the image of His Son...NOT that He was predestinating them to salvation.

verse 30: God "called" all those that He foreknew would want to be saved..and when we came to God and became saved...He declared us not guilty and justified.
He gave us right standing with Him and promised us glory. (after death).

God does not predestine WHO will be saved.
God predestines HOW we will be saved.

Good post GG,
Why do they seem to WANT God to invite only them. Forced love is NOT true love Yes! Of course He knows the end from the beginning...He FOREKNEW those who would choose life! The ones who He KNEW would not, He will still use to His Glory, there will be plenty who will love their sin more than God...

 

[GodsGrace]

Good post GG,
Why do they seem to WANT God to invite only them. Forced love is NOT true love Yes! Of course He knows the end from the beginning...He FOREKNEW those who would choose life! The ones who He KNEW would not, He will still use to His Glory, there will be plenty who will love their sin more than God...

Sure.
God is love....not hate, which is what would be needed to create man...
and then send him to hell !

Also, if the scripture is read plainly and simply, it's easy to see WHAT is predestined...it certainly is not man.

God always gave the choice:
Deuteronomy 30:19

Amen.