The Latest on Calvin

[OzSpen]

I don't believe so. After all, wouldn't predestination denote a favoritism of sorts?

friend of,

What is your understanding of the biblical connection between election and predestination? Are all Christians elected to salvation or not? How do you see this?

Oz

 

[FHII]

Well that is not even the issue. The issue is that he presented a FALSE DOCTRINE of predestination, and was very influential among the Reformers, and hence we have what is known as Calvinism.

One could even call it a heresy, since it perverted the Gospel (see Galatians 1). So while Calvin was going after the so-called heretics, he was building a heretical gospel himself, which denies fundamental Gospel truths.

Enoch

You actually are proving my point here.

In the text you quoted me in, you should realize this is my opinion; not that of the general public at the time or even today. It's mine. Therefore it is the point I am making. And that point is that the topic of predestination wasn't what he was all about and he wrote very little about it. Yet, that's all anyone wants to talk about and remember him by, including you.

That in itself may not be wrong or bad; after all, he did write it. I, personally, think it's very short sided.

A second point to make is that much of what he is credited for were NOT his beliefs. I don't even think he was a "Calvinist" himself! If you want to say, "well he influenced other 'heresies', then"! Ok fine, but so did the Apostles. Have not people taken their teachings and ran amuck with them? Paul and Peter even prophecies that it would happen.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Institutes has some 1800 pages iirc. Please elaborate on your "pull the rug out" statement and share the text of this, where it is found, actual quotation or something to substantiate the above. I ask so others as myself can determine the context and validity of the above dig at John Calvin. I want to know what was really said.

Yes. It does have a lot of pages.
And the more one reads, the more distressful it becomes.

If you want to know what was REALLY said, you, too, should be reading the institutes. I went from one denomination to another. Before doing so, I made sure I knew the doctrine of the one I was going to. I hope you did the same.

Here is what is written, regarding the vessels to destruction:

He then argues thus, — There are vessels prepared for destruction, that is, given up and appointed to destruction: they are also vessels of wrath, that is, made and formed for this end, that they may be examples of God’s vengeance and displeasure. If the Lord bears patiently for a time with these, not destroying them at the first moment, but deferring the judgment prepared for them, and this in order to set forth the decisions of his severity, that others may be terrified by so dreadful examples, and also to make known his power, to exhibit which he makes them in various ways to serve; and, further, that the amplitude of his mercy towards the elect may hence be more fully known and more brightly shine forth; — what is there worthy of being reprehended in this dispensation? But that he is silent as to the reason, why they are vessels appointed to destruction, is no matter of wonder. He indeed takes it as granted, according to what has been already said, that the reason is hid in the secret and inexplorable counsel of God; whose justice it behoves us rather to adore than to scrutinize.

source: John Calvin's commentary on Romans 9:23
https://books.google.it/books


And WHY does God do this?
As we read above for the following reasons:

God DEFERS the judgement of destruction:
1. To set a dreadful example for others.
2. To make them examples of God's vengeance and displeasure.
3. To make known His power.
4. To exhibit in which he makes them in different ways to serve.
5. So that His mercy to the elect may more brightly shine forth.


The above is NOT the God of the bible,
You misrepresent our God.

Who is love:
1 John 4:8b

Who is Merciful:
Mark 6:34

Who is just:
Acts 10:34-35

 

[GodsGrace]

Its interesting how, reading on from this quote, Calvin mentions a few places where God says He chose the fathers, and their seed. Not Abraham, and Abraham's seed, but the fathers, must be the patriarchs I imagine, and their offspring, those who later died in the wilderness for the most part.

Much love!

I don't remember if I answered to this late last night.
Certainly he didn't mean the Early Church Fathers because none of them believed in predestination. (pre 325AD would be considered the ECFs by most theologians).

You said that Calvin said that God chose the Fathers.
I'd like to stop talking about Calvin and concentrate on the bible.
(but we keep bringing him up).

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes. It does have a lot of pages.
And the more one reads, the more distressful it becomes.

If you want to know what was REALLY said, you, too, should be reading the institutes. I went from one denomination to another. Before doing so, I made sure I knew the doctrine of the one I was going to. I hope you did the same.

Here is what is written, regarding the vessels to destruction:

He then argues thus, — There are vessels prepared for destruction, that is, given up and appointed to destruction: they are also vessels of wrath, that is, made and formed for this end, that they may be examples of God’s vengeance and displeasure. If the Lord bears patiently for a time with these, not destroying them at the first moment, but deferring the judgment prepared for them, and this in order to set forth the decisions of his severity, that others may be terrified by so dreadful examples, and also to make known his power, to exhibit which he makes them in various ways to serve; and, further, that the amplitude of his mercy towards the elect may hence be more fully known and more brightly shine forth; — what is there worthy of being reprehended in this dispensation? But that he is silent as to the reason, why they are vessels appointed to destruction, is no matter of wonder. He indeed takes it as granted, according to what has been already said, that the reason is hid in the secret and inexplorable counsel of God; whose justice it behoves us rather to adore than to scrutinize.

source: John Calvin's commentary on Romans 9:23
https://books.google.it/books


And WHY does God do this?
As we read above for the following reasons:

God DEFERS the judgement of destruction:
1. To set a dreadful example for others.
2. To make them examples of God's vengeance and displeasure.
3. To make known His power.
4. To exhibit in which he makes them in different ways to serve.
5. So that His mercy to the elect may more brightly shine forth.


The above is NOT the God of the bible,
You misrepresent our God.

Who is love:
1 John 4:8b

Who is Merciful:
Mark 6:34

Who is just:
Acts 10:34-35

John Calvin was spot on in his exegesis of Romans 9:23. God is love, but that’s not all He is. He is also a God of wrath and vengeance as well. Yes He is merciful, to the vessels of mercy. You are conflating justice with fairness. None want Him being just, trust me.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Scripture states that God is not a respecter of persons. This means no favoritism. All who repent and believe in Jesus can be saved. Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35

Well, then those He foresaw as having faith, per your view, what about them? If He elected them because He knew they would believe, then He is showing them favoritism.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I don't believe so. After all, wouldn't predestination denote a favoritism of sorts?

There was nothing in the elect that was missing in the non-elect.

 

[GodsGrace]

John Calvin was spot on in his exegesis of Romans 9:23. God is love, but that’s not all He is. He is also a God of wrath and vengeance as well. Yes He is merciful, to the vessels of mercy. You are conflating justice with fairness. None want Him being just, trust me.

Did I say God is ONLY love?
I also said He is merciful and He is just.

I don't conflate anything.
I WANT and am happy that God is just....
because He will give to each man what that man deserves...
For there is no partiality with God.


Romans 2:4-11
4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11For there is no partiality with God.


Thankfully, God gives to each person the opportunity to be saved, and it is up to each one of us to make that decision. Precisely BECAUSE He is a just God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This is exactly what both the Westminster Confession of Faith (1646, 1658) and the London Baptist Confession of Faith (1689) state.

It is simply amazing that the Reformers -- who all rejected most of the false doctrines of the Catholic Church -- created their own false doctrine, to mislead hundreds of thousands of people. Just goes to show how Satan works to undermine God's truths among the best of men.

The Bible is crystal clear that the gift of eternal life and the gift of the Holy Spirit are offered to ALL HUMANITY. But all must obey the Gospel.

Seeing that 3.4 BILLION ppl out of 7.1 BILLION haven’t heard the gospel(this was as of 4/2018), how can ALL HUMANITY obey the gospel?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Did I say God is ONLY love?
I also said He is merciful and He is just.

I don't conflate anything.
I WANT and am happy that God is just....
because He will give to each man what that man deserves...
For there is no partiality with God.


Romans 2:4-11
4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11For there is no partiality with God.


Thankfully, God gives to each person the opportunity to be saved, and it is up to each one of us to make that decision. Precisely BECAUSE He is a just God.

Seeing that many have died not hearing the gospel, how can they have the opportunity to be saved?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Did I say God is ONLY love?
I also said He is merciful and He is just.

I don't conflate anything.
I WANT and am happy that God is just....
because He will give to each man what that man deserves...
For there is no partiality with God.


Romans 2:4-11
4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11For there is no partiality with God.


Thankfully, God gives to each person the opportunity to be saved, and it is up to each one of us to make that decision. Precisely BECAUSE He is a just God.

'More Than One-Third of Humanity Will Never Hear About Jesus': Day to Reach the Unreached Set for May 20

 

[GodsGrace]

Seeing that many have died not hearing the gospel, how can they have the opportunity to be saved?

Since when do only those that hear the gospel are offered salvation?
Salvation has always been offered to all men...even before the bible was even written.

Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

And what did Paul say about those that had not heard the gospel...
the good news, but were still living under The Law?

Romans 2:13-15
13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

 

[GodsGrace]

'More Than One-Third of Humanity Will Never Hear About Jesus': Day to Reach the Unreached Set for May 20

The following is in your signature line:
"If you are clear in your theology and in your doctrine you will know that no natural man can believe the gospel... So if you expect a natural man to believe the gospel simply because you are putting it to him, you are denying the gospel; you have not understood it yourself."

Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

“We possess neither the ability, free will, power, nor the righteousness to repair ourselves and escape the wrath of God. It must all be God’s work, Christ’s work, or there is no salvation.”



Please explain to us why you believe we should do missionary work or witness to lost souls since it is God who will ultimately decide who is saved and who is not.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Since when do only those that hear the gospel are offered salvation?
Salvation has always been offered to all men...even before the bible was even written.

Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

And what did Paul say about those that had not heard the gospel...
the good news, but were still living under The Law?

Romans 2:13-15
13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

So, people can be saved without hearing the gospel?

 

[SovereignGrace]

The following is in your signature line:
"If you are clear in your theology and in your doctrine you will know that no natural man can believe the gospel... So if you expect a natural man to believe the gospel simply because you are putting it to him, you are denying the gospel; you have not understood it yourself."

Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

“We possess neither the ability, free will, power, nor the righteousness to repair ourselves and escape the wrath of God. It must all be God’s work, Christ’s work, or there is no salvation.”



Please explain to us why you believe we should do missionary work or witness to lost souls since it is God who will ultimately decide who is saved and who is not.

Because God uses means. The means by which His elect are saved is the gospel. Acts of the Apostles 4:12, Romans 1:16, Ephesians 1:13, 1 Corinthians 1:21, &c. It’s called fulfilling the Great Commission.

 

[GodsGrace]

So, people can be saved without hearing the gospel?

Why not?
Especially with your theology...
why would the gospel be needed at all?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Since when do only those that hear the gospel are offered salvation?
Salvation has always been offered to all men...even before the bible was even written.

Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

And what did Paul say about those that had not heard the gospel...
the good news, but were still living under The Law?

Romans 2:13-15
13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

And yet none are justified by the Law. Romans 3:28, Galatians 3:11, Galatians 5:4. Also, there is no righteousness through the Law either.[Galatians 2:21]

In your hatred of reformed theology, you just meld verses together, offer no exegesis, and say “at da!” It’s like playing chess with a pigeon. All it does is knock over the pieces, poop on the board, and struts around as if it won.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because God uses means. The means by which His elect are saved is the gospel. Acts of the Apostles 4:12, Romans 1:16, Ephesians 1:13, 1 Corinthians 1:21, &c. It’s called fulfilling the Great Commission.

According to you, God is sovereign and decides everything and has everything already planned out.

Why would the most sovereign need means?
He could just ordain things.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Why not?
Especially with your theology...
why would the gospel be needed at all?

Because that’s the means by which He saves ppl.

So, ppl can be saved w/o knowing who the Christ is and what He has done?

 

[rockytopva]

I attended a Free Will Baptist church while going to college. One evening we had a footwashing / communion service. Having never been to one my flesh fought me all the way to church that night. During the service there was such tears and shouting, wow! They would pray over you as they washed the feet and it was really a dramatic sight. It was really done decent and there was such a clean spiritual sensation afterwards as I cannot describe.

It would have done John Calvin good to have attended a footwashing service done right. Especially to wash away all that hatred, strife, and animosity!