The Latest on Calvin

[GodsGrace]

Yes, God is good even to the reprobate. It’s called long suffering.

Again, I gave you a link that stated 3.4 BILLION out of 7.1 BILLION have never heard the gospel. No one is saved outside of it, either. Romans 1:16, 1 Corinthians 1:21, Ephesians 1:13, Acts of the Apostles 4:12, all attest to it.

P.S. You reminded me of how longsuffering God is:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

God wishes for all to come to repentance,,,but alas,,,,not all will because they refuse to believe.

 

[SovereignGrace]

P.S. You reminded me of how longsuffering God is:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

God wishes for all to come to repentance,,,but alas,,,,not all will because they refuse to believe.

Towards you. The context is to believers. He is not willing any of His elect die lost.

“What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.[Matthew 18:12-14]

The same context found in 2 Peter 3:9 applies to Matthew 18:12-14. God is not willing any of His elected sheep die lost.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, you’re the one who needs to read that again.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,[Romans 1:18] Paul starts off with God’s wrath, not His love. Why His wrath? because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.[Romans 1:19] God has shown them Himself through natural revelation and they did this For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.[Romans 1:21] They took what they saw and they did not glorify Him as God, but did this, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.[Romans 1:23] They took what they saw, and gave credit of its existence to some sort of idol.

That’s the thrust of Paul’s argument in a nutshell.

The point is not whether God was happy with man or not...
The point is that man knew about God from the beginning of time,,,
which you deny.

Does Romans 1:19-20 explain to you that MAN has ALWAYS KNOWN about God?

Romans 1:19
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them

You're changing the discussion to suit YOUR requirements.
We were discussing how it was not necessary for the bible to have been written so that man may be aware of God.

Man has ALWAYS been aware of God.
Including the American Indian.

 

[GodsGrace]

Towards you. The context is to believers. He is not willing any of His elect die lost.

“What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.[Matthew 18:12-14]

The same context found in 2 Peter 3:9 applies to Matthew 18:12-14. God is not willing any of His elected sheep die lost.

Why would God's ELECT die lost???
2 Peter is saying that God wishes ALL MEN to come to repentance.
Jesus is putting off coming back so that MORE PERSONS can repent and be saved.


2 Peter 3:9 The Living Bible
9The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.

The promise being spoken of above is Jesus' return.
As I've stated, Jesus is waiting so that even more persons could be saved.

Why would the verse state that God wants EVERYONE TO REPENT
IF He's speaking only to believers?
They have ALREADY repented.

God wants even more persons to repent.
EVERYONE, in fact. Not just some few that HE picks.

 

[Helen]

He ran over my dog and then just took off!

 

[SovereignGrace]

The point is not whether God was happy with man or not...
The point is that man knew about God from the beginning of time,,,
which you deny.

Does Romans 1:19-20 explain to you that MAN has ALWAYS KNOWN about God?

Romans 1:19
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them

You're changing the discussion to suit YOUR requirements.
We were discussing how it was not necessary for the bible to have been written so that man may be aware of God.

Man has ALWAYS been aware of God.
Including the American Indian.

But not every man has been aware of the Christ. That’s the key. The Christ is the only Way to the Father.[John 14:6] If they have never heard of the Christ, they can’t know about Him. And if they don’t know about Him, they can’t get to the Father.

 

[GodsGrace]

But not every man has been aware of the Christ. That’s the key. The Christ is the only Way to the Father.[John 14:6] If they have never heard of the Christ, they can’t know about Him. And if they don’t know about Him, they can’t get to the Father.

Oh my goodness SG,

Are you saying that every person in the whole world that has not heard of Jesus cannot go to heaven?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Oh my goodness SG,

Are you saying that every person in the whole world that has not heard of Jesus cannot go to heaven?

Yes, because the Bible says so. Is there another way to get to heaven? If so, where is it?

”Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.”[John 10:1-2]

”I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.”[John 10:9]

So, are you saying someone can get to heaven w/o going through the only Door to get there?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Oh my goodness SG,

Are you saying that every person in the whole world that has not heard of Jesus cannot go to heaven?

This is hyper-Calvinism you just posted...again.

Hyper-Calvinism is a branch of Protestant theology that denies the universal duty of human beings to believe in Christ for the salvation of their souls. It is at times regarded as a variation of Calvinism, but critics emphasize its differences from traditional Calvinistic beliefs.

Got that for Wikipedia.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, because the Bible says so. Is there another way to get to heaven? If so, where is it?

”Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.”[John 10:1-2]

”I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.”[John 10:9]

So, are you saying someone can get to heaven w/o going through the only Door to get there?

I'm afraid I have to stay with Romans 1:19-20.
Jesus was the awaited Messiah. The Jews had been waiting for Him from the time of David in the Davidic Covenant.

The whole world does not have access to information about Jesus.
However, there is only ONE GOD. Jesus was God....The 2nd person of the Trinity.
We Christians and the Jews of the time, had to enter through Him.

Anyone today that KNOWS about Jesus but turns down His invitation to enter through Him will be lost.

Anyone in the world that does not know about Jesus, but they believe in God as is spoken of in Romans 1, they will be saved because their spirit is in tune with God's spirit.

Perhaps John 5:28-29 could help.
Perhaps Mathew 5:3-9 and Mathew 25 could be of help.

 

[bbyrd009]

No one has ever gone up to heaven

 

[GodsGrace]

No one has ever gone up to heaven

Or come down from heaven...except for....

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Yes. It does have a lot of pages.
And the more one reads, the more distressful it becomes.

If you want to know what was REALLY said, you, too, should be reading the institutes. I went from one denomination to another. Before doing so, I made sure I knew the doctrine of the one I was going to. I hope you did the same.

Here is what is written, regarding the vessels to destruction:

He then argues thus, — There are vessels prepared for destruction, that is, given up and appointed to destruction: they are also vessels of wrath, that is, made and formed for this end, that they may be examples of God’s vengeance and displeasure. If the Lord bears patiently for a time with these, not destroying them at the first moment, but deferring the judgment prepared for them, and this in order to set forth the decisions of his severity, that others may be terrified by so dreadful examples, and also to make known his power, to exhibit which he makes them in various ways to serve; and, further, that the amplitude of his mercy towards the elect may hence be more fully known and more brightly shine forth; — what is there worthy of being reprehended in this dispensation? But that he is silent as to the reason, why they are vessels appointed to destruction, is no matter of wonder. He indeed takes it as granted, according to what has been already said, that the reason is hid in the secret and inexplorable counsel of God; whose justice it behoves us rather to adore than to scrutinize.

source: John Calvin's commentary on Romans 9:23
https://books.google.it/books


And WHY does God do this?
As we read above for the following reasons:

God DEFERS the judgement of destruction:
1. To set a dreadful example for others.
2. To make them examples of God's vengeance and displeasure.
3. To make known His power.
4. To exhibit in which he makes them in different ways to serve.
5. So that His mercy to the elect may more brightly shine forth.


The above is NOT the God of the bible,
You misrepresent our God.

Who is love:
1 John 4:8b

Who is Merciful:
Mark 6:34

Who is just:
Acts 10:34-35

Of course he said that, and it's totally Biblical. God receiving glory means just what?

It doesn't mean, as some assert in their disdain, that God "get's his kicks" out of it.

Nope.

In this instance, his attribute of justice is seen, and that is one glorious attribute of God. So, God is glorified in that sense, and that is what Calvin conveyed, and he is absolutely correct.


It would be then quite imprudent for persons to call this God a "monster." I'd tread lightly there and reserve the inflammatory insults, it may well be blasphemous.


I don't reject it, or have a problem with it. It's all over Scripture, and he does exercise his justice at will, and is just in doing so.

God is not obligated to save any person, nor is he obligated to give them some fairy tail chance to vote or decide themselves into heaven, which doesn't ever happen by the way, no matter how often you claim it does. Scripture totally denies this. You keep seeing it in there because you've convinced yourself you are able to do it, that you were good enough to do it, sensible enough to do it and worthy of doing it. Jesus is clear: no man is able. SO read the texts of "enter in" and others in that lens, not in a man centered man able lense.

He chooses and elects to salvation. I've given several references that prove this.

Man is not saved via choice, he is saved by grace. Choice is meritorious, the opposite of grace. Once several humble themselves and accept this glaring fact then they'll see the biblical truth and embrace it.

Until then we see people refusing to give God all the glory, and reserve some for self, and cannot accept the facts of what Calvin commented on, and of which I and many others accept and agree.

God does all of these things that men may tremble at who he is. Seems many want to believe there is a God, but even demons are more wise, at least they tremble; James 2:19. Others see God as a pushover, and mock and ridicule his other attributes, in this case justice, then call names on God. Not in the least bit Christian or wise.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Yes, because the Bible says so. Is there another way to get to heaven? If so, where is it?

”Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.”[John 10:1-2]

”I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.”[John 10:9]

So, are you saying someone can get to heaven w/o going through the only Door to get there?

Exactly. Then there is no need of preaching, leave the lost alone, they're going to heaven.

 

[bbyrd009]

He chooses and elects to salvation. I've given several references that prove this.

jesus you got it bad, i mean you got beat over the head repeatedly with it, and it made some dents huh

Until then we see people refusing to give God all the glory, and reserve some for self

priceless

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Why would God's ELECT die lost???
2 Peter is saying that God wishes ALL MEN to come to repentance.

Nope, he doesn't say that at all. Use context. The subject is the elect, not each and every person who ever lived. As soon as you can show he departed from context at 2 Peter 3:9 and the subject that carries through from verse 1 to 2 Peter 3:18 then we'll agree with you. But that isn't possible.

The sad thing is many do this with many texts of which they don't approve of and depart from the context in order to secure their teachings in an out of context and misused Scripture. Romans 9 is another prime example. "Oh, let's now take this chapter out of context, because God couldn't really mean he's God and saves in the manner presented?!! That would be unfair!!!" (which is a fancier more appealing way of saying UNJUST, until you think about it.)

Enter Romans 9:20.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Here are the sad facts, none of these are willing to examine the context, but instead go circular, never accepting this and end right back in error. Context is rejected.

Secondly, none is willing to accept the fact that God can and does exercise his justice at will. This helps to keep a truncated god well protected while avoiding the entirety of his person. Then the insult of "monster" is thrown in.

It's just like leftists who throw out the "racist" card to try and end the argument (in other words they're done listening to reason, so here come the insults.) Sorry, but that is the sad fact of the matter.

God is also a God of love, who sent his Son for his people, so he would save them by grace, unmerited, and do for them what they could never possibly do.

 

[rockytopva]

1. John Bunyan possessed the spirituality he professed
2. John Calvin did not.

In my own Pentecostal Holiness church I know many who have graduated the cemetery (oops! I meant seminary) and come out of there all John Calvin like. Possessing not the spirituality they profess through the mind.

1. John Bunyan I love
2. John Calvin I do not

It is one thing to understand doctrine... It is another thing for it to take hold inside the spiritual man. Two men I love...

1. Baptist - Lester Roloff
2. Pentecostal - RW Schambach

Simply because these gentlemen possessed the spirituality they professed.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

1. John Bunyan possessed the spirituality he professed
2. John Calvin did not.

Nothing but unsubstantiated slander. You don't know Calvin. Please don't make so many idle words to have to give account for, you've given too much already.

 

[Windmillcharge]

"Calvin justified capital punishment of heretics with Leviticus 24:16. “The one who blasphemes the name of the Lord should be put to death; all the congregation must stone him. Any foreigner or native who blasphemes the Name should be put to death.”Jesus’ teaching to “love your enemies” didn’t stop Calvin from killing them. Paul’s instructions for dealing with people who theologically disagree with you were ignored: “A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth” (2 Timothy 2:24-25). Calvin authorized beheadings, death by fire, and torture rather than exercise patience and kindness with competing theologians. His enforcement of biblical doctrines looked more like ISIS than Jesus.

Are you being naive?

The Inquisition didn't kill people itself either. It had the civil authorities do so.

The popes sanctioned the crusades. Did they kill anybody themselves?

read some history....

And every state exceuted people for those reasons. So to accuse Calvin of exceuting people is inaccurate and also to apply double standards, expecrting him to live according to our morality.