the law of faith?

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CoreIssue

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Romans 16:26 (KJV) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Romans 1:5 (KJV) By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

It's interesting the two phrases come at the beginning and end of the same book (Romans), and they occur only once in the whole Bible.
I do believe they are synonymous with each other, like matching bookends.
Romans 16:26 New International Version (NIV)
26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith—

Romans 1:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.
 

prism

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Romans 16:26 New International Version (NIV)
26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith—

Romans 1:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.
Yes this seems the progression in both cases...Scriptures (writings)---> Faith (in those writings)--->Obedience (as a result of that faith).
 
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farouk

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Romans 16:26 (KJV) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Romans 1:5 (KJV) By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

It's interesting the two phrases come at the beginning and end of the same book (Romans), and they occur only once in the whole Bible.
I do believe they are synonymous with each other, like matching bookends.
Interesting point, yes. In the context of Romans, it seems to emphasize the centrality of faith in justification.
 

CoreIssue

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Interesting point, yes. In the context of Romans, it seems to emphasize the centrality of faith in justification.

This wording makes it even more clear and unified.

Romans 16:26 New International Version (NIV)
26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith—

Romans 1:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.
 

prism

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Hey while we're at it...from the Expanded Bible

Romans 16:25-26
25 ·Glory to God [LNow to the one] who can make you strong in faith ·by [or in accord with] ·the Good News that I tell people [Lmy Gospel] and ·by [or in accord with] the ·message [preaching; proclamation] about Jesus Christ. The message about Christ is the ·secret [mystery; 11:25] that was hidden for long ages past but is now ·made known [revealed; disclosed]. 26 It has been ·made clear [revealed; disclosed] through the writings of the prophets. And by the command of the eternal God it is ·made known [revealed; disclosed] to all ·nations [Gentiles] ·that they might believe and obey [or for the obedience that follows faith; Lfor the obedience of faith].

Romans 1:5
5 Through ·Christ [Lwhom], ·God gave me the special work of an apostle [Lwe have received apostleship; C“we” could be a formal way of saying “I,” or could refer to Paul and the other apostles], which was to lead ·people of all nations [the Gentiles] to ·believe and obey [or the obedience that comes from faith; or the obedience that is faith]. I do this work for ·him [Lhis name].
 

gadar perets

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Romans 16:26 (KJV) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Romans 1:5 (KJV) By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

It's interesting the two phrases come at the beginning and end of the same book (Romans), and they occur only once in the whole Bible.
I do believe they are synonymous with each other, like matching bookends.
There is no difference in the Greek that would warrant two different translation of the same word (pisteos); "of faith" and "to faith". They should both be translated "of faith".

26 φανερωθέντος δὲ νῦν διά τε γραφῶν προφητικῶν κατ’ ἐπιταγὴν τοῦ αἰωνίου θεοῦ εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως εἰς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη γνωρισθέντος,
26 phanerothentos de nyn dia te graphon prophetikon katí epitagen tou aioniou theou eis hypakoen pisteos eis panta ta ethn gnoristhentos,
26 leading to obedience of faith;

5 δι’ οὗ ἐλάβοµεν χάριν καὶ ἀποστολὴν εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως ἐν πᾶσιν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν ὑπὲρ τοῦ ὀνόµατος αὐτοῦ,
5 dií hou elabomen charin kai apostolen eis hypakoen pisteos
5 through whom we received grace and apostleship for obedience of faith
 

prism

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There is no difference in the Greek that would warrant two different translation of the same word (pisteos); "of faith" and "to faith". They should both be translated "of faith".

26 φανερωθέντος δὲ νῦν διά τε γραφῶν προφητικῶν κατ’ ἐπιταγὴν τοῦ αἰωνίου θεοῦ εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως εἰς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη γνωρισθέντος,
26 phanerothentos de nyn dia te graphon prophetikon katí epitagen tou aioniou theou eis hypakoen pisteos eis panta ta ethn gnoristhentos,
26 leading to obedience of faith;

5 δι’ οὗ ἐλάβοµεν χάριν καὶ ἀποστολὴν εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως ἐν πᾶσιν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν ὑπὲρ τοῦ ὀνόµατος αὐτοῦ,
5 dií hou elabomen charin kai apostolen eis hypakoen pisteos
5 through whom we received grace and apostleship for obedience of faith
I wasn't looking so much at πίστεως as I was at εἰς 'in' or 'into'. That seems much different from 'from' παρ as the NIV uses in v.26.
 

gadar perets

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I wasn't looking so much at πίστεως as I was at εἰς 'in' or 'into'. That seems much different from 'from' παρ as the NIV uses in v.26.
I don't see the NIV using παρ. I see them using "that comes from" to interpret the Genitive case of πίστεως instead of "of".
 

prism

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I don't see the NIV using παρ. I see them using "that comes from" to interpret the Genitive case of πίστεως instead of "of".
Let me go back to my original point stated in post #142, and see if you agree...
Yes this seems the progression in both cases...Scriptures (writings)---> Faith (in those writings)--->Obedience (as a result of that faith).
 

gadar perets

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Let me go back to my original point stated in post #142, and see if you agree...
Yes this seems the progression in both cases...Scriptures (writings)---> Faith (in those writings)--->Obedience (as a result of that faith).
Not quite. It is not "faith (in those writings)", but faith in Messiah Yeshua that leads us to obedience. The Scriptures teach us about Yeshua, but it is our faith in him that matters and that bears the fruit of obedience to what is written in Scripture or to what YHWH and Yeshua tell us.
 

prism

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Not quite. It is not "faith (in those writings)", but faith in Messiah Yeshua that leads us to obedience. The Scriptures teach us about Yeshua, but it is our faith in him that matters and that bears the fruit of obedience to what is written in Scripture or to what YHWH and Yeshua tell us.
Ok, I said,...
Yes this seems the progression in both cases...Scriptures (writings)---> Faith (in those writings)--->Obedience (as a result of that faith).
it is not much different from...
John 20:31 NKJV
[31] but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Or

1 John 5:13 NKJV
[13] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

We can't have faith in the Messiah apart from God's special revelation found in Scripture, but yes Jesus is the ultimate object of our faith.
 

gadar perets

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Ok, I said,...
it is not much different from...
John 20:31 NKJV
[31] but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Or

1 John 5:13 NKJV
[13] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

We can't have faith in the Messiah apart from God's special revelation found in Scripture, but yes Jesus is the ultimate object of our faith.
I agree that one way faith comes is through special revelation found in Scripture. However, neither one of those verses say we are to have faith in what is written. It is what is written that leads to faith in Messiah.
 
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prism

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I agree that one way faith comes is through special revelation found in Scripture. However, neither one of those verses say we are to have faith in what is written. It is what is written that leads to faith in Messiah.
OK, so you hold that 'faith in' is not the same as 'believe in'? Because both are used with our Lord and Scripture as the object of our beliief/faith.
 

gadar perets

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OK, so you hold that 'faith in' is not the same as 'believe in'? Because both are used with our Lord and Scripture as the object of our beliief/faith.
The two verses you quoted do not say "believe in" Scripture or "have faith in" Scripture. They both say believe in or have faith in Yeshua. I am not coming against Scripture or believing in it. I am just showing you that the verses you cited do not say to believe in or have faith in Scripture. Do you have any other verses that teach that?
 
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prism

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The two verses you quoted do not say "believe in" Scripture or "have faith in" Scripture. They both say believe in or have faith in Yeshua. I am not coming against Scripture or believing in it. I am just showing you that the verses you cited do not say to believe in or have faith in Scripture. Do you have any other verses that teach that?
My point is that there is no believing in Jesus without believing the Scriptures which is what v.26 is essentially saying. You can't divorce the two.
 

bbyrd009

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The two verses you quoted do not say "believe in" Scripture or "have faith in" Scripture. They both say believe in or have faith in Yeshua. I am not coming against Scripture or believing in it. I am just showing you that the verses you cited do not say to believe in or have faith in Scripture. Do you have any other verses that teach that?
ty
 

prism

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aw. Well, Scripture says different I guess
Appealing to Scripture to say Scripture isn't necessary, isn't wise.

I have shown where it is necessary for faith in Christ Jesus, can you show me otherwise?

John 20:31 NKJV
[31] but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

and

1 John 5:13 NKJV
[13] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.