The Little Book

[David H.]

It's a poem my dear friend wrote one day, on a napkin at a coffee shop-- just like that.... line by line without need for revision. From the time he was just a boy he would have little episodes of what some might call narcolepsy, where he would just zone out, making it difficult to function in school and then later on as an adult. He would struggle against this and fight to stay awake, sometimes choosing to go running for hours on end and even through the night.

One night his mom and dad found him outside in the dead of winter, fast asleep in nothing but his pajamas, with the falling snow covering him. Now as a man of some years, like most of us here-- he long ago realized that in this state he was falling into spirit. Coming to grips with this, he learned to 'be awake' when he was asleep, and interact in that other realm, no differently than you or I might converse here and now. This particular poem was one of two that came to him in this way while he had drifted off, sitting with his precious horses out in his barn.

interesting I read the two witnesses in this.

 

[Mr E]

I'll tell you a little story, as he told it to me-- and based upon those things you wrote above, you might appreciate his perspective better than most. He is not a scholar. He was raised in a loving home, and was sent to Catholic school to be educated by the nuns. He had a significant stutter, but for whatever reason he could perform as a choir boy without stuttering. He would sing for the mass(?) and that's about the extent of his religious education. Now as a grown man he told me that he had picked up a little pocket sized new testament, the first Bible he had touched in some 30 or more years.

But he told me much of those two brothers. He told be of what he saw concerning the youngest one John (called Mark). And I know-- that consensus thinking will insist that John Mark was not the same John as the son of Zebedee and brother of James, but my friend sees this differently. There were several Johns' and James' and so forth. Others can argue about it. He says John, was the youngest- the beloved friend of our Lord Jesus Christ. He was like a young puppy, loving and attentive and always underfoot. About the only way today that we might know who actually wrote what book, is by who is not mentioned much, as the stories were about Jesus and not themselves. John (called Mark) was the first one to write it down and he was also the last one to see Jesus, and it was this same John who recorded the things late in life that Jesus revealed to him.

Take that however you might-- that's just what my friend told me. And he said-- That one that Jesus loved most-- he charged with taking care of his own mother, knowing he was leaving this life. This was for a practical reason beyond the close relationship. John was the youngest among the 12-- and what is it to anyone if Jesus should want him to live until he returned? It was only his mother he was worried about.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Everyone just completely went over my head. I haven’t seen or understood a single thing said. Guess it’s best for me to leave this particular thread alone.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Everyone just completely went over my head. I haven’t seen or understood a single thing said. Guess it’s best for me to leave this particular thread alone.

@Episkopos

It is hard for me to draw any firm conclusions from the Book of Revelation, so take this with a bit of salt as they say.

The seventh angle represents the Lord Jesus Christ. He places one foot on the land and one foot on the sea representing the fulfillment of Daniel 7:14.

He cries out with a loud voice and seven peals of thunder answer in response. This is reminiscent of Exodus 19:19, when Moses spoke to the Lord, the Lord responded with thunder.

The seventh angel is holding an open book; this stands in contrast to the sealing up of the seven thunder's message. To seal up a message is to preserve the message for a future time. The open book represents a message that needs to be heard at the time of the seventh Angel. I suspect that the message of the seven thunders remains a secret because to reveal the message would alert the enemy and cause harm if the information should fall into the wrong hands. (An alternate explanation for secrecy is the fact that certain information is impossible to understand until the time is right or the people are wiser and better able to understand it.)

The Seventh Angel takes an oath, declaring an end to the delay, which I suspect is an end to the delay of God's judgment. If I am right, the trumpet judgments were warnings of Christ's soon return and God's judgment against this world system. The Seven trumpets represent a delay of God's judgment as he waits for the final set of believers to repent and come to saving faith. Once everyone repents who will repent, then the mystery of God is finished. (The mystery of God is the New Covenant in the blood of Jesus Christ.) At some point in the future, the New Covenant will be completely fulfilled.

The little book, I think, is contained in the final chapters of the book of Revelation. The overall message is sweet: Jesus returns, he begins his reign, eternal life is granted to his followers, and eventually all evil is removed from our existence. The prophecy is bitter in that it involves some of the most intense suffering that must come upon the followers of Jesus and the bitter disappointment in the fact that more people couldn't be saved.

I am willing to be corrected.

 

[Lizbeth]

This is going to throw a spanner in the works for some, but the book of Daniel is the only book of all the books of scriptures that was sealed to the end. It prophesied of the coming Messiah who John witnessed in the flesh in his days, and it prophesied of the judgment of Jerusalem and end of the old covenant/sacrifices. Remember this is about "finishing" the mystery of God. So what is that mystery? And what was Jesus talking about when He said "it is finished" on the cross. Do a word search of "mystery of God". And remember the gospel (and many prophecies) is to the Jew FIRST, then the Gentile. So we need to at least look at it first from Israel's point of view back then.

Dan 8:11-14
Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. (by fire and judgment!)

Dan 8:19
And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.



Dan 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Remember Jesus prophesying that their house would be left to them desolate.)

Dan 8:17
So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Dan 11:35
And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Dan 11:40
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Dan 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Dan 12:9
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

John was living in the time of the end of Jerusalem and temple sacrifices. God putting an end to it all. Only the Lamb that had been slain was worthy to unseal that scroll (ie, to unleash and pour out those judgments/wrath!) After Jesus had left this world, Jerusalem and temple worship proceeded to turn into a complete horror show and was filling up the wrath of God, as well as most cruelly persecuting the early church....studious types can look into what Josephus recorded about these things.

 

[Lizbeth]

I see it as a part of the truth...but incomplete hence the smallness of the book. When people pick and choose preferred verses but omit the lion-share of the bible they don't like...it makes for a "little book." Half-truths and assumptions based on those half-truths.

So then to the one who is looking and consuming only the pleasing verses...it tastes sweet. But on judgment day those same words will produce bitterness in the belly...there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Why seal up the prophesy till the end? Well the fulness of the delusion would only take place 1,500 years in the future. Now, it is time to prophesy again...to get ready to repent of falling short of the full measure of the truth.

The strong delusion is tied to the revealing of the son of perdition/Wicked one - who sits in the temple of God opposing God and exalting himself and "shewing himself that he is God".

 

[Mr E]

I'm just going to say, if God sealed away something that makes your stomach bitter, do you really want to know what it is?

You thought it was one thing.... and it turned out to be something else entirely.

Well, if you were a doctor-- you'd want to know what it was that was ingested. It sounds like maybe someone drank antifreeze, thinking it was Kool-Ade.

Or maybe it's a piece of the puzzle....

 

[Mr E]

@Episkopos

It is hard for me to draw any firm conclusions from the Book of Revelation, so take this with a bit of salt as they say.

The seventh angle represents the Lord Jesus Christ. He places one foot on the land and one foot on the sea representing the fulfillment of Daniel 7:14.

He cries out with a loud voice and seven peals of thunder answer in response. This is reminiscent of Exodus 19:19, when Moses spoke to the Lord, the Lord responded with thunder.

The seventh angel is holding an open book; this stands in contrast to the sealing up of the seven thunder's message. To seal up a message is to preserve the message for a future time. The open book represents a message that needs to be heard at the time of the seventh Angel. I suspect that the message of the seven thunders remains a secret because to reveal the message would alert the enemy and cause harm if the information should fall into the wrong hands. (An alternate explanation for secrecy is the fact that certain information is impossible to understand until the time is right or the people are wiser and better able to understand it.)

The Seventh Angel takes an oath, declaring an end to the delay, which I suspect is an end to the delay of God's judgment. If I am right, the trumpet judgments were warnings of Christ's soon return and God's judgment against this world system. The Seven trumpets represent a delay of God's judgment as he waits for the final set of believers to repent and come to saving faith. Once everyone repents who will repent, then the mystery of God is finished. (The mystery of God is the New Covenant in the blood of Jesus Christ.) At some point in the future, the New Covenant will be completely fulfilled.

The little book, I think, is contained in the final chapters of the book of Revelation. The overall message is sweet: Jesus returns, he begins his reign, eternal life is granted to his followers, and eventually all evil is removed from our existence. The prophecy is bitter in that it involves some of the most intense suffering that must come upon the followers of Jesus and the bitter disappointment in the fact that more people couldn't be saved.

I am willing to be corrected.

This little book of revelation begins with a clear explanation--

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen very soon. He made it clear by sending his angel to his servant John, who then testified to everything that he saw concerning the word of God and the testimony about Jesus Christ.

John writes it and tells us that it is what Jesus Christ revealed to him. It's Jesus' revelation, not John's. That's number one.

Secondly, the way that it was revealed to John, was that Jesus Christ sent his angel to John, who then recorded as a witness, those things he saw and heard from that messenger. John was a witness to the testimony of Jesus Christ, who came to John in spirit.

And that, as @stunnedbygrace already pointed out- is the key to understanding this book.

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day when I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, saying: “Write in a book....

And this book of revelation is the result.

It's not meant to be read like a novel, and it's not exactly like any other scripture with one exception. It's a LOT like any other scripture wherever someone's dreams or sacred visions are concerned. Where prophets tell you what they too, saw while in spirit. This book that John wrote for us, is his dream journal. It's a collection of his little snippets of things he saw and remembered and wrote down. Little pamphlets, that pieced together make a little book.

If you want to understand this book, --like Daniel, like Joseph.... you will need to gain some understanding of dreams.

 

[Mr E]

And this section that @Episkopos referenced in his OP is one of those scenes.

This angel is that angel of the Lord- Jesus Christ, that John is talking about in his preface to this whole book of revelation. He's identifying which angel it was that came to him-- telling us that it was the angel of Jesus Christ who revealed all these things (Rev 1). Here in Rev 10 he's describing that---- descending from heaven, a messenger with a little scroll- the testimony of Jesus Christ and it is this testimony that is given to John.

And with the testimony of Jesus Christ, as @Lizbeth mentions-- the mystery that was previously sealed, is revealed. And we know that he's talking about what was sealed previously since he says so-- things seen by others, but left previously unexplained.

But in the days when the seventh angel is about to blow his trumpet, the mystery of God is completed, just as he has proclaimed to his servants the prophets.

He is revealing the meaning behind the mystery of the things those prophets saw in spirit -- and that is what this book goes on to do. They saw candlesticks and lampstands, and lamps, and lambs, and lions..... and this book reveals what all those things are.

But it's not all that you expect. You expect something pleasant. It's not that. It will turn your stomach.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And that, as @stunnedbygrace already pointed out- is the key to understanding this book.

I may have pointed it out but it was Epi, a few years ago, who presented it to me that John was not talking about which day of the week it was when he said “on the day of the Lord/Lords day.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The strong delusion is tied to the revealing of the son of perdition/Wicked one - who sits in the temple of God opposing and exalting himself and "shewing himself that he is God".

Oh my gosh…oh it’s so disgusting, but in spirit, I can see it. With each of us as the temple.

 

[Adam]

You thought it was one thing.... and it turned out to be something else entirely.

Well, if you were a doctor-- you'd want to know what it was that was ingested. It sounds like maybe someone drank antifreeze, thinking it was Kool-Ade.

Or maybe it's a piece of the puzzle....

View attachment 28175

I'm thinking it's a cosmic truth. Remember that angels rebelled. What could cause an angel to turn against God? We die and go to heaven, and then what? The spirit world is formless, what kind of wars do they fight without blood or steel? They fight with philosophy. There is some "small truth" an incomplete truth, which if we take it in, it seems good at first, but it will actually destroy us. I think our purpose on Earth is to prepare us for the "full truth", so that the Devil can't use the small truth to turn us to his side.

 

[Lizbeth]

Oh my gosh…oh it’s so disgusting, but in spirit, I can see it. With each of us as the temple.

Yes, God's wisdom is manifold and His is a voice of many waters.....there can be different layers to the things He speaks in spirit. Speaking to Israel concerning their temple being one layer here, and church could be another layer since the church is also depicted as God's temple, and also speaking on a personal level could be another.

Son of perdition reminds me of the scriptures about Lucifer in Is. 14.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm thinking it's a cosmic truth. Remember that angels rebelled. What could cause an angel to turn against God? We die and go to heaven, and then what? The spirit world is formless, what kind of wars do they fight without blood or steel? They fight with philosophy. There is some "small truth" an incomplete truth, which if we take it in, it seems good at first, but it will actually destroy us. I think our purpose on Earth is to prepare us for the "full truth", so that the Devil can't use the small truth to turn us to his side.

I think this is very good…

 

[Mr E]

I'm thinking it's a cosmic truth. Remember that angels rebelled. What could cause an angel to turn against God? We die and go to heaven, and then what? The spirit world is formless, what kind of wars do they fight without blood or steel? They fight with philosophy. There is some "small truth" an incomplete truth, which if we take it in, it seems good at first, but it will actually destroy us. I think our purpose on Earth is to prepare us for the "full truth", so that the Devil can't use the small truth to turn us to his side.

I like that you search deeply. And ask the big questions.

I give you another to ponder. Those angels that rebelled-- it's a why and how question related to your - "What could cause an angel to turn against God? -Since God created the angels, no- not of flesh and blood, but without blood or steel, as you say-- where did their discontent come from? How is it that anything evil had any place in heaven?

I don't want to hijack @Episkopos thread further, but I'd be happy to carry on the conversations with you elsewhere. There are two ways of examining these things-- from our limited physical point of view, or better-- from the spiritual perspective and greater understanding

 

[Lizbeth]

read ezzekial . the sweet words are the words of GOD , the bitterness is the persecution that comes against those preaching it .
Its real simple if we learn our bible .

Yes, everything in Revelation seems to be a reiteration of things that have already been prophesied. (Maybe we could say it is a kind of a bundling or summation of them all to "finish" or complete their fulfillment, at least on one level.)

And I think it's good to keep in mind that Ezekiel was a contemporary of Daniel and he was prophesying to the children of the Babylon captivity.

 

[Mr E]

Yes, everything in Revelation seems to be a reiteration of things that have already been prophesied. (Maybe we could say it is a kind of a bundling or summation of them all to "finish" or complete their fulfillment, at least on one level.)

And I think it's good to keep in mind that Ezekiel was a contemporary of Daniel and he was prophesying to the children of the Babylon captivity.

Or perhaps a repeating of those things. Each in it's own time, season after season.... the word, the planting, the increase, the harvest.

 

[David H.]

I'll tell you a little story, as he told it to me-- and based upon those things you wrote above, you might appreciate his perspective better than most. He is not a scholar. He was raised in a loving home, and was sent to Catholic school to be educated by the nuns. He had a significant stutter, but for whatever reason he could perform as a choir boy without stuttering. He would sing for the mass(?) and that's about the extent of his religious education. Now as a grown man he told me that he had picked up a little pocket sized new testament, the first Bible he had touched in some 30 or more years.

But he told me much of those two brothers. He told be of what he saw concerning the youngest one John (called Mark). And I know-- that consensus thinking will insist that John Mark was not the same John as the son of Zebedee and brother of James, but my friend sees this differently. There were several Johns' and James' and so forth. Others can argue about it. He says John, was the youngest- the beloved friend of our Lord Jesus Christ. He was like a young puppy, loving and attentive and always underfoot. About the only way today that we might know who actually wrote what book, is by who is not mentioned much, as the stories were about Jesus and not themselves. John (called Mark) was the first one to write it down and he was also the last one to see Jesus, and it was this same John who recorded the things late in life that Jesus revealed to him.

Take that however you might-- that's just what my friend told me. And he said-- That one that Jesus loved most-- he charged with taking care of his own mother, knowing he was leaving this life. This was for a practical reason beyond the close relationship. John was the youngest among the 12-- and what is it to anyone if Jesus should want him to live until he returned? It was only his mother he was worried about.

Well John's Gospel is pretty clear that John wrote that, Revelation says "I John...." (1:9)
I Picture John as the little brother who was tagging along with the big brother James.... The sons of thunder as Christ called them....James was the first to be martyred.... The first saint of the 12. I Have always wondered if this meant that James and John were the two witnesses but not much is said about this James in scripture, even though he was one of the inner circle of the Apostles. (Peter, James, John and Andrew), And it was this moniker of the sons of thunder that made me think this. But like I said I have found an equal and compelling case for Zerubbabel as well which is why I believe he is one... Both he and John have the plumline and measure the temple, and he has the signet and he is said to be the one to finish the temple for which he laid the foundation for.

 

[Mr E]

Well John's Gospel is pretty clear that John wrote that, Revelation says "I John...." (1:9)
I Picture John as the little brother who was tagging along with the big brother James.... The sons of thunder as Christ called them....James was the first to be martyred.... The first saint of the 12. I Have always wondered if this meant that James and John were the two witnesses but not much is said about this James in scripture, even though he was one of the inner circle of the Apostles. (Peter, James, John and Andrew), And it was this moniker of the sons of thunder that made me think this. But like I said I have found an equal and compelling case for Zerubbabel as well which is why I believe he is one... Both he and John have the plumline and measure the temple, and he has the signet and he is said to be the one to finish the temple for which he laid the foundation for.

Another great discussion perhaps best continued in another thread. Yes, these two brothers were given the title- sons of thunder by our Lord, so that's significant. It would be a mistake to think that he was simply alluding to their temperaments, when he makes it clear in this book of his revelation that these seven spirits/angels are called seven thunders right here in this tenth chapter. -and I hate the verse and chapter divisions as well, apart from being reference markers.

It's a retelling of an old story.

It's no coincidence that there are repeating elements from one age to another. 12 tribes, 12 disciples. ---twelve "brothers" -and someone gets sold out for a few pieces of silver and it's only by God turning what was meant for evil into good that redemption and freedom from captivity comes. -- and as with that little poem- that redeemer has two boys who are blessed by the Father, crossing his hands on their heads as he did so.... two brothers of a different mother, but made of the twelve. There is good reason to wonder about James and John and their close relationship with Jesus, having significance. I'd be happy to share, and to listen to your reference to Zerubbabel, which I assume to be rooted in Zechariah's time. It's a retelling. Rinse. Repeat.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, God's wisdom is manifold and His is a voice of many waters.....there can be different layers to the things He speaks in spirit. Speaking to Israel concerning their temple being one layer here, and church could be another layer since the church is also depicted as God's temple, and also speaking on a personal level could be another.

Son of perdition reminds me of the scriptures about Lucifer in Is. 14.

I see the whole “I am as righteous and holy as Jesus” as being that setting himself in the temple of God and showing himself as God and claiming to be God.

Thats the spirit of the matter as I saw it.