The Living Word of God. Does God elaborate on the scriptures?

[VictoryinJesus]

As I see it, we were all of us born dead to our natural mothers. So, yes, when a person really is born again, death is behind.

Confusion sometimes comes into play because people don't all have the same meaning in mind when they speak of death or of life. There is a physical death of the physical body. There is another death. Sometimes scripture speaks physical death on the surface which is a type of shadow of the other death. Adam and Eve, I believe, died immediately when they disobeyed God... but not physically. They were walking and talking still, but what God recognizes as Life was gone from them. But... that thing which each of us has called life by men in general must be killed completely before we can be completely and finally Alive. Can a person be dead to the ways of the flesh while the flesh still walks and talks? I would say, yes, but that could even more confusing if we analyze it too closely.

Being 'born again' or 'born from above' is only the beginning of Life. That is the Life that never needs to end... but if we lose our "first love" what happens then? This is where the delusion comes into play making a person believe he has Life, when it is gone from him.

when speaking of death is behind “Passed from death unto Life” I meant: John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

we discussed this on another thread: given power to become the Sons of God. Matthew 16:24-25 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. [25] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:24-25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. [25] He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Question I have is: can a seed bring forth fruit before it dies?

 

[amadeus]

when speaking of death is behind “Passed from death unto Life” I meant: John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

we discussed this on another thread: given power to become the Sons of God. Matthew 16:24-25 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. [25] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:24-25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. [25] He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Question I have is: can a seed bring forth fruit before it dies?

I am not a expert on the garden variety of seeds, even though I had little gardens in my yard for many years. But such seeds break open in the soil and are like a whole new lifeform when they begin to grow. This is sometimes called death... death of the old seed form anyway. It might be considered a conversion as when a caterpillar becomes a butterfly or when we are converted from our own ways of death to God's Way of Life.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I am not a expert on the garden variety of seeds, even though I had little gardens in my yard for many years. But such seeds break open in the soil and are like a whole new lifeform when they begin to grow. This is sometimes called death... death of the old seed form anyway. It might be considered a conversion as when a caterpillar becomes a butterfly or when we are converted from our own ways of death to God's Way of Life.

It is strange talking about seeds. I was just talking with a lady the other day who is going through chemotherapy for ovarian cancer. She is scared. Yet trying to be strong so no one in her family will know how she really feels, which is vulnerable. She said, “God has taught me something through all of this. He has taught me seeds do not grow on top of the ground. Seeds have to go in the ground where it is dark before they can grow.”

 

[amadeus]

It is strange talking about seeds. I was just talking with a lady the other day who is going through chemotherapy for ovarian cancer. She is scared. Yet trying to be strong so no one in her family will know how she really feels, which is vulnerable. She said, “God has taught me something through all of this. He has taught me seeds do not grow on top of the ground. Seeds have to go in the ground where it is dark before they can grow.”

Yes, God has brought her understanding making connections between the source the seeds of natural life within herself... now diminishing for her... with the way that God brings to us through His Son an infinitely greater Life. Reproduction of natural life with its seeming complexities is certainly type or shadow of our spiritual road to Him. Your friend's production of the necessary natural seeds may be stopped but she still has that greater Hope for her "new man" from the seed which God has planted within her and within each person who really is born again.

In the scriptures when they speak of childbirth it is sometimes mentioned in the sense of a breaking forth into the light. Before that happens the seed opens up and is nourished within the womb being prepared for all that awaits the new child in the light. Without that proper nourishment and preparation within there could be no life out in the light. Consider what God told Moses about no man being able to see His face and live if we can understand it and make the connection. Even then God knew there would eventually be a Way for man to leave the darkness of the womb of the Church as a "new man" in the brightness of the real Light of God and eventually, yes, to look directly upon His face and NOT die. At the beginning of that new Life in the Light, the baby born from above must start with the milk of the Word and be gradually increased to where he can consume the meat of Word in maturity and be like his Father! What is that we as babies in Christ are really to become? We know only in part, but is not our vision and understanding of such things increasing? They will be if we are following God's lead in all of the necessary things. From Darkness to Light, indeed!

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" I John 3:2

 

[friend of]

The Spirit of God gives us new insight and revelation when it is applied to our lives. In that sense, it is Living alive and within.

 

[Giuliano]

Most have heard, read, or understand that the scriptures are living….the Living Word of God.

I would say the prophets received them as the Living Word; but the written words are not in and of themselves the Living Word. They can invoke the Living Word in some ways.

Some believe that the Bible is the living Word of God because it is the knowledge given to us from the “living God” Who is alive and works in this world through His living Word in conjunction with Christ and the Holy Spirit

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

I take this as a reference to the seventh trump. I say that because the description fits. The topic being discussed prior to this is entering the eternal rest. Up to this trump, the spirit is often entangled with the other aspects of the person. If someone is confused about what heart, mind, soul and body are, he's unable to control those aspects. Let's look at the context in Hebrews.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This trump can be heard in various ways. To the person resisting it, it sounds threatening; and at high volume, it reportedly frightened most of Israel -- and the Psalm cited is about what happened at Sinai. At lower volume, it may not even be heard; but it will produce a deep quiet or a profound silence. The person may (or may not) be thrust out of his body at low volume, but he will experience himself as a spiritual being without question. He may hear physical sounds around him; but they will sound distant and unreal. I think many people experience this at low volume, and it is helping them get ready for the day when they hear the seventh trump more fully.

This is the small still voice Elijah heard shortly before he was taken up into Heaven in a chariot. Most people do not take their bodies with them, however, the spirit being divided from the body.

1st Peter 1:22-24
You have made your souls pure by obeying the truth through the Holy Spirit. This has given you a true love for the Christians. Let it be a true love from the heart. You have been given a new birth. It was from a seed that cannot die. This new life is from the Word of God which lives forever. All people are like grass. Their greatness is like the flowers. The grass dries up and the flowers fall off.

This appears to be a manifestation of the third trump (as in Genesis, not in Revelation where the order is slightly different). It acts to correct the fall of Adam in the "vegetable body" of man. Yes, man is like a vegetable. Here Peter compares it to grass as do other Scriptures. Jesus used the metaphor of an herb -- which later grows into a tree.

At the fall of Adam, we see death coming because of Adam's mistake and the corruption of plants as well. The two are connected. The same curse that produces thorns and thistles brought death to the "vegetable body" of man.

In the life of the Christian, two trumps precede this one. The first is when he is ready to receive Light. He wonders about God. Is there anything out there? What is out there? When Heaven observes him, Light is sent to him. At this point spiritually, he is no bigger than that mustard seed Jesus talked about. Next comes baptism, the division of mind and soul. This makes it possible for him to behave rationally and not be controlled or manipulated by the emotions of the soul without his knowledge.

Then the third trump says, "Come forth" and a soul "born of water" begins to emerge. In Hebrew it's ben which can mean either son or stone. Temptations come, and some succumb. At this stage in the life of Jesus, Satan appeared to tempt him. Jesus could have performed a miracle when tempted by hunger; but he told Satan, "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God." More steps remained to be done as more Words came from God.

Switching metaphors to wheat, we can say Jesus was growing the wheat at this point. It would be made into bread later -- not physical bread of course but spiritual bread after the template of the Heavenly Bread which came down from Heaven. There is something extremely valuable concealed within matter; and this process retrieves and organizes it. Please do not think miracles are free. Miracles such as healing depend on this "spiritual bread" which is produced by Heaven acting on the material body of the person below. It is possible, I should warn perhaps, to perform too many miracles -- giving to the dogs what should be kept for the children; and if that is done, the person could have trouble later forming his own spiritual body.

What is the meaning of these scriptures?

Does the scriptures have something more for us than what was understood at the close of the Bible?


If so, how do you think that guidance or information is manifested? People have different opinions on that.

Is it to the church?
Is it to the individual?
Can the message be conflicting between individuals?

Organized religion fell into confusion rather early; but there are enough hints in the Bible to steer the sincere soul in the right direction. Indeed the Spirit can guide the sincere without any Scriptures. We are told that the Scriptures could not be understood by most Jews; but if we're honest, we admit they aren't understood by most Christians as well. How could they be when we have so many varying views?

So what is the Bible for? I say it is for people whose hearts need softening; and the temptation to think we know something on the first reading is more apt to be vanity than the Holy Spirit guiding us. The Bible contains messages for people who were unable to hear from God for themselves. Holy books and holy men do serve a purpose, at least at first. That is when man is at the "grass" or "herb" stage. If he has the right instruction, he will grow up into Heaven himself and become "like the tree" that Jesus talked about.

Many people have shut the ability to receive thoughts down. It is probably for the best they did, too.

 

[amadeus]

So what is the Bible for? I say it is for people whose hearts need softening; and the temptation to think we know something on the first reading is more apt to be vanity than the Holy Spirit guiding us. The Bible contains messages for people who were unable to hear from God for themselves. Holy books and holy men do serve a purpose, at least at first. That is when man is at the "grass" or "herb" stage. If he has the right instruction, he will grow up into Heaven himself and become "like the tree" that Jesus talked about.

These words of yours give me a clue about a question I've had for a long time and which was at least mentioned on another thread recently: How does a person become hungry... hungry that is for the righteousness, Jesus mentions here? Consider now the following:

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled" Matt 5:6

The clue is in your suggestion as to what the Bible is for: "...for people whose hearts need softening". For more on this let us look first at this verse:

"For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns." Jerem 4:3

The fallow ground is the soil as yet not plowed and not planted. [Is this the heart of man?] The farmer [you or me perhaps for our little piece of ground] needs to go to work with his plow to get that soil ready for the sower who is coming with his seed [in this case the Word of God]...

The hard ground means hard work is needed to even break open that soil in preparation... Rocks are commonly the culprit when that fallow ground is too hard:

"Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:" Matt 13:5

In the natural the horses pulling the plow may not work. They have the strength, but with too many and too big of rocks they with their strength are likely to break a good plow causing delays for the farmer. How many delays can he afford before winter sets in or before "night cometh":

"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." John 9:4

So we pull out our hand pick and go to swinging it to get at those bigger rocks before we can make use of available horse power. If we cannot do it with a plow or a shovel, then maybe a pick is the best tool.

How does this relate to using the Bible to softening hearts? People, a little bit of molded dirt, each one having a heart! Is it soft or is it hard for the work of God?

Is their heart too hard for the plow pulled by the horse? Will they allow us to go to work on them with a pick?

I guess the plow or the pick could also be the sword, which is the Word of God, no? Perhaps the old man in need of killing mentioned by the Apostle Paul may be or may include the hard of rock ground of men's hearts?


"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matt 10:34
"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Matt 26:52

And then...

Would the following verses be completely out of context here?

"Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong." Joel 3:10

versus

"And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Micah 4:3

Some won't read the Bible themselves. Some won't listen to others read or teach from the Bible. Some will be killed by the sword [or spear or …?]

Some others will take that same sword as a plow [or shovel or pick or...?] to break up their fallow ground, to dislodge and remove the rocks that any remain clods of soil may be broken up? Is this equal to softening a person's heart? Is this equal to making them hungry and thirsty for the righteousness of God?

 

[Giuliano]

There does seem to be a connection with iron. In other places the hard human heart is compared to baked clay; and an iron rod is used to shatter it.

Psalm 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Both the sword and the iron rod are mentioned here:

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

All this is very interesting from an "astrological" viewpoint since the third day of the week is Tuesday, ruled by Mars; and the metal of Mars is iron. Also interesting is the connection with blood. Dam is blood in Hebrew; and we see Adam being being formed from the adamah. Adam and/or Edom is associated with being rudy or red. Blood is red. What makes blood red? It's the iron in it combining with the oxygen in air, so we have iron showing up again.

Coming back to the heart now, the seed once planted in the human heart grows and grows if it survives. There may be several ways the defects of the human heart can be corrected. One could be to have the seedling crack it, the way plants can crack concrete as they put down roots.

I also see the heart as the proper altar on which the Sacred Flame burns. I tend to believe that the Sacred Flames help burn away impurities. There is another way to see the heart and that is like a cubical salt molecule. It is indeed a miniature copy of the Holy City; and thus sacrifices can be made there, all sacrifices requiring salt and fire. I believe impurities of the heart are made acceptable sacrifices by the salt and fire of the "Sacred Heart." Those who feel a warmth in the region of their heart when praising God are most likely offering up acceptable sacrifices and could be purifying their hearts at the same time.

Of course, baptism follows repentance -- and I refer to spiritual baptism more than physical -- the person begins to receive more Living Waters than he used to. Heaven does not waste its resources. The unrepentant surely receives some Living Waters but not in abundance. I see these Living Waters as helping to soften the hard soil of the heart where it's been caked together so to speak.