Prentis said:
All have access, and all CAN enter. But the Bible says the opposite of what you say. Not all enter or have entered...
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
That is just not true, Prentis. We ALL have access to the Holy of Holies! We all meet with God, every time we pray, worship, fellowship - are you kidding me???
Heb 4:1 says nothing about people not entering into the Holy of Holies, in fact, I'm not sure you know what the Holy of Holies is. Have you never met with God? We should be doing this on a daily basis!
Prentis said:
I agree we do not come together as an already perfected people, but that is not the issue. We are here to remind each other of the calling and strive towards it. The issue is not that people have not yet attained, it is when they believe there is nothing to attain, or no need to strive to attain to the high calling in Christ Jesus. That is the point I am making, not what you seem to understand from me.
If indeed they do, which is good, why would it bother you that we use this forum to remind each other of that high calling and the need to diligently move forward in Christ? ;)
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
We have need of daily exhortation because being pulled out of a dungeon is not the end, but the beginning. Coming out of Egypt is good, but we must be exhorted lest we forget that we were cleansed and we fall in the wilderness. It is not so that once we come out of Egypt, everything is cool! Once we come out of Egypt, we need to go through the wilderness, and then conquer the promised land! This is what I attempt to point towards.
No one has said anything about "believing there is nothing to attain" - can anyone on this forum please tell me if they believe sinning is ok? Is good for our walk? I don't think you could find one person. We all know we need to rid our lives of sin, it's not rocket science.
You're reminding people of a 'higher calling' - please enlighten us.....you should be able to tell us of all your experiences of all the churches you visited and all the people you met in them and what heathens they are because they don't know 'the higher calling' nor do they 'believe in attaining anything'.
Prentis said:
However, here is the experience I do have. My faith began in a small church, and God was working there and transforming people and lives. I am not ignorant that God can and does powerfully intervene in all places. This is where he first intervened in my life. I also witnessed this same small church change from open-hearted, God-seeking, and willing to turn the other cheek, to a place full of backbitting, envy and strife. This, after it received success, bought a large building, etc. ('Favor is deceitful')
This is not the fate of all places. But the point is that ties to this world's system makes the best intentioned and most dedicated people vulnerable to attacks of the enemy. Whenever we forsake the simplicity of our spiritual bond, follow after the pattern of the world, we can be blindsided. I call to simplicity not to tear down people, but for their own protection. We are safe when we make God our strong tower. But like Cain who was promised protection from God, we still want to protect ourselves and so we build a city.
This is only your experience, with one church, there are millions of churches worldwide who build buildings where they do not end up with backbiting and strife. No, this is not the fate of all places - far from it.
Have you ever thought that when backbiting and strife happens, we stay, work through it and that is how we grow as the Body?
If all went well all the time - would there be much growing? Doesn't God grow us more through trials and tribulations than a walk in a daisy field?
Prentis said:
I have witnessed this everywhere I have gone. I was a volunteer in a large youth conference, and while backstage I heard the youth pastor and the invited speaker speaking of how they can make a good smoke show, attracting more people, and making more money. The concern was not the spiritual state of the youth, but their wallets and their attendance. It was in short a scam... But it is not harmless to their spiritual lives, it destroys it because it feeds them a lie. I have seen a small young adults group back up this very initiative, not because they thought it was right, but didn't have the heart to separate themselves from the people doing this.
I know, not everyone has that heart. But that is exactly the point, if our heart is not for the world, why welcome it's ways and therefore make ourselves vulnerable to attack. In all his love, God allows us to be torn down when we do not walk in his ways for the purpose that we would learn.
Again, you might say not all fall for this. But their is a safe way... We must not forsake gathering together, and I know and have witnessed people called into the institution, while I myself have been called out. But even within it, we need not be blind to its dangers.
Churches are not perfect, I think we've agreed on that, we also agreed that people are not perfect. There are some churches out there who are into entertainment, but to write of all organized religion because of your two experiences is rather silly.
What of all the GOOD churches have done? Why focus only on the negative? It really is amazing how believers, from all across denominations, come together as the Body to be the Body in communities. However, when you're only focusing on how churches have failed your expectations, then yeah, you'll have a bad attitude about brothers and sisters in Christ and how they 'do their walk'.
