The Machinery of the Church

[rockytopva]

Picking up the video @4:00, God does not anoint the machinery of the church, but God anoints people. He anoints individuals.

I am Wesleyan Pentecostal. I believe that, like William Seymour, one must tarry and wait on the Lord for more of him. Here is the doctrine as I believe it in metaphor to the Hebrew Temple.

1. Justification - We are justified through faith - The Outer Gates
2. Salvation - A simple profession of faith in Jesus our sacrifice is all that is needed for salvation. The Alter
3. Outer Sanctification - Conforming oneself to a righteous believers standard. - The Laver
*****Inner Temple - Jesus is the door! Inner sanctification******
4. The Word - Growing daily in the word of God - The Table of Shewbread
5. The Spiritual Light - Paul called these the fruits of the Spirit - The Candlestick
6. Prayer and Praise - Alter of Golden Incense
****The Vail of the Inner Temple
7. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit - The anointing! - The Holy of Holies!

In which William Seymour, the architect of this doctrine warns....

“Whenever the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Ghost will only be known as the evidence of speaking in tongues, that work will be an open door for witches and spiritualist and free loveism. That work will suffer because all kinds of spirits can come in.” - William Seymour


Here is the image I copied and enhanced from Seymour's book...

In looking over this doctrine anybody, IMHO, can receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Unlike most Pentecostals, I for one do not believe that this necessarily comes with tongues, but, if you ever make your way into the Holy of Holies you will spiritually sense the experience.So, whether you are Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Charismatic, Whatever, anyone can receive the fullness of God in the Holy of Holies. And as this doctrine is Wesleyan, and John Wesley did not intend the denomination, these things are best sought outside the machinery of the church. However, once experiencing these things God will call you to a church where you can put the anointing to work on your own level...

Good Wigglesworth story @ 9:49 by the way...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bebAgnxXEm8

 

[Prentis]

Amen!

The anointing of God is for those who would serve him wholeheartedly and submit themselves completely to Him! No system or institution can manufacture such life and power, it is only found in Him, and he is found outside the camp!

Very good point about tongues too. It is sad that people turn what should create a Spirit filled life manifested in holiness and power into a few minutes of babbling. Tongues exist, but they are easily manufactured too. If it really is God, it will be manifest in ones life in power and holiness.

 

[John S]

This is my doctrine. TRY to live my life the way that I believe that Jesus Christ would want me to live my life and then, when I die, let Him decide whether it has been good enough or not. Too many people make thing too complicated.

There is no such thing as speaking in tongues. That's hogwash.

 

[horsecamp]

so instead of one faith one lord and one baptism WE ARE NOW TO BELIEVE IN two baptism and propably two Lords and two faiths also ..

NO JESUS ONLY INSTRUCTS "HIS CHURCH' TO USE ONE BAPTISM AND THATS HOLY BAPTISM .





Ephesians 4:5


one Lord, one faith, one baptism;




Matthew 28:18-20



18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

 

[rockytopva]

so instead of one faith one lord and one baptism WE ARE NOW TO BELIEVE IN two baptism and propably two Lords and two faiths also ..

NO JESUS ONLY INSTRUCTS "HIS CHURCH' TO USE ONE BAPTISM AND THATS HOLY BAPTISM .



Ephesians 4:5

one Lord, one faith, one baptism;


Matthew 28:18-20



18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. - Acts 1:5
And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. - Acts 11: 15-16

 

[horsecamp]

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. - Acts 1:5

and they were----------------- it still does not apply to ANY OF us--- it applied to them only.. AT THAT TIME IN HISTORY only. no where will you find Jesus instructing his church to use any thing but the baptism he instructs ..


even johns baptism of water is replaced with the water baptism Christ instructs ..
why? all one has to do is believe what the verses say about the baptism christs instructs..
and they will know why.


now about why such a strange baptism was given to those particular deciples ..

it was not because they did not have the holy spirit all ready but because if one reads the bible about
this spirit baptism the holy Ghost had not yet given them certain gifts,, that they would need to prove who they were .. so that was the purpose of this strange baptism special gifts that would be given to them .. the new testament PROVING they were from God was still in the making so special gifts were needed .. these special gifts that were given only to them .. are no longer needed since we now have the new testament ..

to prove our ministry OF THE GOOD NEWS IN JESUS

MANY PEOPLE THINK LUTHERANS ARE MEAN BECAUSE we reject that certain people have these special gifts to day .. The reson we reject they have them is not only because they do not .. but because some new christian is made to think there faith is not much of a faith because they cant do these thing some other christians claim they do.. Well guess what Lutheran pastors have been around a lot longer than these
supposed special gift pastors and members and not one lutheran pastor or any of our members can do them either .. AND WE ARE THE OLDEST "UNBROKEN CHAIN" OF EVANGELICALS (TELLERS OF THE GOOD NEWS IN JESUS ) IN THE WORLD ..

we not only suggest but will tell you your acting foolish if you dont

IF YOU WANT TO BE HEALED GO STRAIGHT TO God and ask him .. JESUS HAS MADE SUCH ASKING POSSABLE ----------USE THAT GIFT JESUS WON FOR YOU.. if you want to learn to speak in tongues
like the specialy gifted disciples did .. TRY LEARNING italian or greek or hebrew or what ever from the many available
resources you have to day.. Because unlike those deciples of Jesus DAY your going to have to learn them rather than just receive them.face up your no angelic being YOUR JUST GOING TO HAVE TO LEARN THEM THE HARD WAY ..YET GOD GAVE YOU A GIFT OF BRAINS USE YOUR GIFT AND LEARN
A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE IF YOU WANT.. or you can just pretend I SUPPOSE,, BUT YOU WILL SOUND JUST AS SILLY AS OUR MODERN DAY WANNHAVES

 

[rockytopva]

I simply cannot say that just because you have been baptized with water that everything is now kosher, you are filled with the Holy Spirit, now disappear somewhere.

I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. - Philippians 3:14

The fullness of God, the anointing, or the high calling is something that we just strive for. Like the Pilgrims Progress it is a journey...

1. City of Destruction - Justification by faith - To leave the city
2. The Wicket Gate - Salvation - Simply believing on the Lord Jesus to be saved is all that is required to open the door!
3. Interpreters House - Sanctification - Good place for water baptism and good bible instruction
4. The Cross - Spiritual Sanctification - If the disciplining is good the professor should catch a good glimpse of the cross!
5. Difficulty Hill - The Journey - It can be a difficult thing to arrive at the Witness of the Spirit!
6. The Porters House - The Baptism in the Holy Ghost

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78nkrIrK26c

 

[horsecamp]

I simply cannot say that just because you have been baptized with water that everything is now kosher, you are filled with the Holy Spirit, now disappear somewhere.

I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. - Philippians 3:14

The fullness of God, the anointing, or the high calling is something that we just strive for. Like the Pilgrims Progress it is a journey...

1. City of Destruction - Justification by faith - To leave the city
2. The Wicket Gate - Salvation - Simply believing on the Lord Jesus to be saved is all that is required to open the door!
3. Interpreters House - Sanctification - Good place for water baptism and good bible instruction
4. The Cross - Spiritual Sanctification - If the disciplining is good the professor should catch a good glimpse of the cross!
5. Difficulty Hill - The Journey - It can be a difficult thing to arrive at the Witness of the Spirit!
6. The Porters House - The Baptism in the Holy Ghost

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78nkrIrK26c

WHO TOLD YOU THAT? I SAID BELEIVE WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS ABOUT THE HOLY BAPTISM
Jesus instituted .. but you seem to perfer to believe something else.. specificaly in a baptism that only gave a few people
back long ago some special gifts.. your not st paul or any of the other deciples these gifts were given to ..
you may wanna have them but Gods grace is sufficent for you ..

talking about Gods grace .. here a bible quote that proves what jesus instituted baptism is .

" NOT LAW" ITS ALL GRACE AND TRUTH ------------ a BIBLE QUOTE "tHE LAW CAME THROUGH MOSES GRACE AND TRUTH CAME THROUGH JESUS CHRIST"..

now if baptism came from moses and was law i could hit you over the head with holy baptism saying you evil person you should do it !


But since its Gods grace.. i know you cant do it .. Jesus must do it because were all naturaly evil ..
and if we like it or not JESUS continues to work saving faith through his word in the waters of his instituted baptism ..

yet he does not make his grace irresistable as calvin beleived..

For JESUS SAYS IN HOLY SCRIPTURE "how often i had WANTED to gather you as a hen gathers her chicks but You were not willing "
==================================================================================

AND YES -------Rockytopvia i will watch the video you provided yet .. at some future time as my computer is not working properly right now ..

And Rockytopvia i personaly think you love Jesus very much and are not a luke warm christian ..

SO your church could not be all about spirit filled baptism they must have preched Christ and him crucified for you..
S-o as st paul said who realy did talk in tongues with out learning them as easly as Gods holy angels could

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.


There is not a word in the Bible which is extra cruem, which can be understood without reference to the cross.
MARTIN LUTHER

 

[rockytopva]

Horsecamp, we can agree on the fact that salvation is a simple thing. Getting into the various doctrines can be excruciating!

 

[Levi]

God draws us, we accept, we grow in faith and are obedient, God manifests in our lives as we walk in Him.

Pretty basic, I agree, people make it waaaaay too complicated.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Picking up the video @4:00, God does not anoint the machinery of the church, but God anoints people. He anoints individuals.

I am Wesleyan Pentecostal. I believe that, like William Seymour, one must tarry and wait on the Lord for more of him. Here is the doctrine as I believe it in metaphor to the Hebrew Temple.

1. Justification - We are justified through faith - The Outer Gates
2. Salvation - A simple profession of faith in Jesus our sacrifice is all that is needed for salvation. The Alter
3. Outer Sanctification - Conforming oneself to a righteous believers standard. - The Laver
*****Inner Temple - Jesus is the door! Inner sanctification******
4. The Word - Growing daily in the word of God - The Table of Shewbread
5. The Spiritual Light - Paul called these the fruits of the Spirit - The Candlestick
6. Prayer and Praise - Alter of Golden Incense
****The Vail of the Inner Temple
7. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit - The anointing! - The Holy of Holies!

In which William Seymour, the architect of this doctrine warns....

“Whenever the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Ghost will only be known as the evidence of speaking in tongues, that work will be an open door for witches and spiritualist and free loveism. That work will suffer because all kinds of spirits can come in.” - William Seymour

Hi rockytopva,

The plan of salvation is not hard to find, but it does involve study of God’s word, not man’s. William Seymour is just a man. Always quote God’s word to prove a point.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Be blessed.

 

[horsecamp]

Horsecamp, we can agree on the fact that salvation is a simple thing. Getting into the various doctrines can be excruciating!

I'm listening to the broad cast you posted now.

of course with a different computer.. my other computer is still operating really poorly..

 

[Prentis]

Entering the gate and starting the Christian walk is indeed simple, it is to turn our hearts to God in repentance.

But, for lack of a greater witness near us, we often think that it ends there. It is only the beginning of a journey to attain the high calling in Christ Jesus, as rocky pointed out. Our calling is to learn to abide in Him, so that we might be as he is, Holy as the Father is holy, walking in the power of Christ.

Heb. 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.

If we are stuck on the most foundational things, repentance and the beginning of faith, the doctrine of baptismS , and so forth, the call of God is to move on to perfection. All these doctrines are good in their rightful place, but the whole purpose of this is that we bear the good fruit that God desires. We are called to be as Christ is, walking in the power of the Spirit, a powerful witness to the whole world around us.

We have a high calling brothers and sisters. If we have begun, it is good, but let us not stumble there and sit on our laurels... God permitting, let us move on unto perfection!

Blessings!

 

[Levi]

Yet that is exactly what this thread is about - entering the race, people make it way too complicated.

No one said the Christian walk was easy and no one said anyone was 'stuck on the most foundational things'. Prentis, because you want to discuss a different topic, maybe you should start a different thread, just a suggestion.

 

[Prentis]

Yet that is exactly what this thread is about - entering the race, people make it way too complicated.

No one said the Christian walk was easy and no one said anyone was 'stuck on the most foundational things'. Prentis, because you want to discuss a different topic, maybe you should start a different thread, just a suggestion.

Actually, reading over the OP, it seemed to me it was about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Rocky said:

"Whatever, anyone can receive the fullness of God in the Holy of Holies. And as this doctrine is Wesleyan, and John Wesley did not intend the denomination, these things are best sought outside the machinery of the church. However, once experiencing these things God will call you to a church where you can put the anointing to work on your own level..."

Amen! We are here not just to enter the race, but to receive the fulness of God and be anointed of him for HIS purpose. We all need to be reminded of this high calling, and to diligently seek the Lord that we might enter his rest! Heb 3 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is still called “today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Heb 4 11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall according to the same example of unbelief.

Blessings to you Levi!

 

[Levi]

Actually, reading over the OP, it seemed to me it was about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Rocky said:

"Whatever, anyone can receive the fullness of God in the Holy of Holies. And as this doctrine is Wesleyan, and John Wesley did not intend the denomination, these things are best sought outside the machinery of the church. However, once experiencing these things God will call you to a church where you can put the anointing to work on your own level..."

Amen! We are here not just to enter the race, but to receive the fulness of God and be anointed of him for HIS purpose. We all need to be reminded of this high calling, and to diligently seek the Lord that we might enter his rest! Heb 3 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is still called “today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Heb 4 11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall according to the same example of unbelief.

Blessings to you Levi!

Receiving the fullness of God in the Holy of Holies was the purpose of the Cross, it's accessible to all believers, not to just a select few. It doesn't really matter to me what John Wesley intended or didn't intend as far as denominations are concerned, I follow Christ not Wesley. Christ did say we are part of the Church and regardless if He places us in a denomination, outside of one, in a different country, particular nationality, He is bigger than all of it. He is more powerful and is able to overcome anything a denomination or whatever else is thrown HIs way, He is able to transform lives anywhere at anytime. We were bought with a price and He will finish the work He began in us.

I do believe it is a lack of faith in God, on our part, if we doubt His ability to transform us regardless of what we are 'in' or what we are going through or where we are at.

 

[rockytopva]

Same structure... Different words...

1. Acquiring faith
2. Accepting Jesus
3. The 'what we believe' stuff
4. Daily in the word
5. Good fellowship
6. Praise and worship
7. Close to Jesus!

 

[Prentis]

Receiving the fullness of God in the Holy of Holies was the purpose of the Cross, it's accessible to all believers, not to just a select few. It doesn't really matter to me what John Wesley intended or didn't intend as far as denominations are concerned, I follow Christ not Wesley. Christ did say we are part of the Church and regardless if He places us in a denomination, outside of one, in a different country, particular nationality, He is bigger than all of it. He is more powerful and is able to overcome anything a denomination or whatever else is thrown HIs way, He is able to transform lives anywhere at anytime. We were bought with a price and He will finish the work He began in us.

I do believe it is a lack of faith in God, on our part, if we doubt His ability to transform us regardless of what we are 'in' or what we are going through or where we are at.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt at first, but you keep arguing against things I didn't say. I never said it was only accessible to a select few, rather I said 'Amen' to 'anyone can receive the fulness of God in the holy of holies' (rocky). I do not follow Wesley either, rocky happens to talk about Wesley in my quote from his post . I didn't say we weren't part of the Church with a capital C if we were in a denomination or not, rather I affirmed what you said earlier that God has people within the confines of denomination.

I was not stating doubt in his power of transformation, but rather was caliing to faith in such power. I am speaking of moving on from the basic things we learn when we begin our walk and moving on to abiding in the life and power of Christ, this call is good for all who call on the name of the Lord.

Now while God can transform us wherever we are according to our faith - and some places within denominations might encourage this powerful transformation - many places do not encourage this, but rather by doctrine deny the power. "Of such, turn away", we are commanded. So then in accordance with the biblical pattern, whether it be Moses, Christ, or Paul, we are called outside the camp to seek him. This is in accordance with the OP of the thread also, which touches on the subject.

"...these things are best sought outside the machinery of the church."

I do not speak against the people within at all, but against the system that is the machinery of the church, which opposes the very radical transformation we are called to, which the Bible speaks of. I did not say we should not believe that God can transform us wherever we are as you impose onto my post, rather we should believe all things and have all faith. But I call to discernment between what strengthens our inner man, and what is an impediment on the very radical faith we speak of.

 

[Levi]

I gave you the benefit of the doubt at first, but you keep arguing against things I didn't say. I never said it was only accessible to a select few, rather I said 'Amen' to 'anyone can receive the fulness of God in the holy of holies' (rocky). I do not follow Wesley either, rocky happens to talk about Wesley in my quote from his post . I didn't say we weren't part of the Church with a capital C if we were in a denomination or not, rather I affirmed what you said earlier that God has people within the confines of denomination.

As long as you realize all believers have access to the Holy of Holies - and ALL ENTER, then all is good.

I'm not sure what you mean by "confines of a denomination"? I think you should just admit you have a problem with denominations instead of running around the bush with one foot nailed to the floor.

We are not perfect on earth, so if there is a problem with a group of people who come together in the name of Christ, then it's to be expected - there is no perfect church or person, so yeah, we'll have problems with them and other people. Some people call it the sandpaper effect, we're all being sanded down, our sharp edges should be disappearing as we all do community together, regardless where God has us.

I was not stating doubt in his power of transformation, but rather was caliing to faith in such power. I am speaking of moving on from the basic things we learn when we begin our walk and moving on to abiding in the life and power of Christ, this call is good for all who call on the name of the Lord.

Ok, pretty sure believers have that faith - it's why they are believers. Most people were pulled out of a dungeon by God, it's their testimony, and know of His power and how He changes lives and transforms. There are millions of such testimonies.

I do not speak against the people within at all, but against the system that is the machinery of the church, which opposes the very radical transformation we are called to, which the Bible speaks of. I did not say we should not believe that God can transform us wherever we are as you impose onto my post, rather we should believe all things and have all faith. But I call to discernment between what strengthens our inner man, and what is an impediment on the very radical faith we speak of.

When you speak of how 'churches' oppose radical transformation - are you speaking of experience? Or are you parroting something someone told you? Just curious because you are only 20 but seem to think all denominations don't have a clue about the transforming power of the Holy Spirit in their lives. This is really a mystery to me, how you came to this conclusion.

Non-denominations, community churches, denominations, housegroups - whatever you want to call the gathering of His disciples - are all that. We are commanded to come together and not forsake the solemn assembly.

 

[Prentis]

As long as you realize all believers have access to the Holy of Holies - and ALL ENTER, then all is good.

I'm not sure what you mean by "confines of a denomination"? I think you should just admit you have a problem with denominations instead of running around the bush with one foot nailed to the floor.

We are not perfect on earth, so if there is a problem with a group of people who come together in the name of Christ, then it's to be expected - there is no perfect church or person, so yeah, we'll have problems with them and other people. Some people call it the sandpaper effect, we're all being sanded down, our sharp edges should be disappearing as we all do community together, regardless where God has us.

All have access, and all CAN enter. But the Bible says the opposite of what you say. Not all enter or have entered...
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

I agree we do not come together as an already perfected people, but that is not the issue. We are here to remind each other of the calling and strive towards it. The issue is not that people have not yet attained, it is when they believe there is nothing to attain, or no need to strive to attain to the high calling in Christ Jesus. That is the point I am making, not what you seem to understand from me.

Ok, pretty sure believers have that faith - it's why they are believers. Most people were pulled out of a dungeon by God, it's their testimony, and know of His power and how He changes lives and transforms. There are millions of such testimonies.

If indeed they do, which is good, why would it bother you that we use this forum to remind each other of that high calling and the need to diligently move forward in Christ?
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

We have need of daily exhortation because being pulled out of a dungeon is not the end, but the beginning. Coming out of Egypt is good, but we must be exhorted lest we forget that we were cleansed and we fall in the wilderness. It is not so that once we come out of Egypt, everything is cool! Once we come out of Egypt, we need to go through the wilderness, and then conquer the promised land! This is what I attempt to point towards.

When you speak of how 'churches' oppose radical transformation - are you speaking of experience? Or are you parroting something someone told you? Just curious because you are only 20 but seem to think all denominations don't have a clue about the transforming power of the Holy Spirit in their lives. This is really a mystery to me, how you came to this conclusion.

Non-denominations, community churches, denominations, housegroups - whatever you want to call the gathering of His disciples - are all that. We are commanded to come together and not forsake the solemn assembly.

Fair question. I don't have lengthy experience being that I am 20 something... And maybe I go too hard on this point, I will ponder this.

However, here is the experience I do have. My faith began in a small church, and God was working there and transforming people and lives. I am not ignorant that God can and does powerfully intervene in all places. This is where he first intervened in my life. I also witnessed this same small church change from open-hearted, God-seeking, and willing to turn the other cheek, to a place full of backbitting, envy and strife. This, after it received success, bought a large building, etc. ('Favor is deceitful')

This is not the fate of all places. But the point is that ties to this world's system makes the best intentioned and most dedicated people vulnerable to attacks of the enemy. Whenever we forsake the simplicity of our spiritual bond, follow after the pattern of the world, we can be blindsided. I call to simplicity not to tear down people, but for their own protection. We are safe when we make God our strong tower. But like Cain who was promised protection from God, we still want to protect ourselves and so we build a city.

I have witnessed this everywhere I have gone. I was a volunteer in a large youth conference, and while backstage I heard the youth pastor and the invited speaker speaking of how they can make a good smoke show, attracting more people, and making more money. The concern was not the spiritual state of the youth, but their wallets and their attendance. It was in short a scam... But it is not harmless to their spiritual lives, it destroys it because it feeds them a lie. I have seen a small young adults group back up this very initiative, not because they thought it was right, but didn't have the heart to separate themselves from the people doing this.

I know, not everyone has that heart. But that is exactly the point, if our heart is not for the world, why welcome it's ways and therefore make ourselves vulnerable to attack. In all his love, God allows us to be torn down when we do not walk in his ways for the purpose that we would learn.

Again, you might say not all fall for this. But their is a safe way... We must not forsake gathering together, and I know and have witnessed people called into the institution, while I myself have been called out. But even within it, we need not be blind to its dangers.