You're begging the argument. You're assuming what you wish to prove. If you wish to truly prove something as *doctrine* from the Bible, it must be *taught as doctrine* in the Bible. The cults have made a living taking parables and then filling them with the particular meaning they wish to give them.
God has no wish to create a timing order for events so that we can speculate about what symbol means what and when each thing will happen. Rather, I believe He avoided this very thing by giving us the Revelation in apocalyptic form, which is largely a symbolism that discourages over-literalization of the precise historical progression.
I'm just reading what is written. You are the one that has to make a false conclusion that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal BEFORE wrath is the coming of Jesus AFTER wrath or at the end of wrath.
I can't figure how anyone thinks that makes any sense. This is particularly true because we have the scriptural backup that show Jesus comes BEFORE wrath.
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud,
and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth,
and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
So like it or not, your claim is in total error, that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the same as the coming of Jesus during the 7th seal. It makes absolutely no sense and is unscriptural.
Again, we are not told, biblically, that these are 2 separate events. Your claims are not therefore *biblical claims!*
Again, the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is BEFORE wrath and the coming of Jesus during the trumpets of the 7th seal is at the end of wrath.
We can absolutely prove this.
The saints appear in heaven to show that is where we receive our glorification. But that is but the beginning of an eternal supper, experienced in both heaven and earth. The Great Multitude rise up out of the Great Tribulation of the present era, which is characterized by trouble, both for those who are disobedient and for those are are obedient. The saints, at Christ's Coming, rise up out of these troubles to be glorified, nevermore to suffer.
The great multitude is the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the seed of the woman is gathered from the earth along with those killed during the time of testing.
Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Christ does not return *to the clouds.* Rather, he returns *with the clouds.* In other words, he appears to earth *from heaven.* That is his return to earth from heaven.
The Bible teaches this in Dan 7, where the Son of Man is viewed as returning with the clouds. And that is the precise moment when heaven rules in favor of Christ and delivers the Kingdom of God to him on earth.
During the second coming at the 6th seal. Christ remains in the clouds or upon a cloud. He is coming for a harvest and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
During the second advent, Jesus will return with the clouds of heaven which is the armies of heaven. Jesus is returning to set up His kingdom and the dead will be judged.
Not at all. Many things are numbered for other than chronological purposes. For example, I could list 7 facets of Divine revelation. No facet would be in chronological order!
True. I will agree.
The same is true of the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 vials of wrath. They represent a truth represented by the number 7. But each item in a set has a single theme, and all 7 items point to the end-game of that respective theme.
So the problem is you want to claim the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal before wrath is the coming of Jesus at the end of wrath at the end of the trumpets of the 7th seal.
There certainly is a chronological order in some parts, as determined in the narrative. But there is no essential chronological order from vision to vision or from item to item in each vision. The narrative determines when something is in chronological order. Sometimes, the narrative is only ordering things sequentially for purposes of showing that one vision followed another in John's experience.
What you're doing is describing differences between words. But words can be synonyms, or they can be complementary. They do not have to refer to different events.
It's pretty easy to see that Jesus comes before wrath and Jesus comes at the end of wrath. He comes for a harvest before wrath and comes to set up His kingdom and for judgement at the end of wrath. Two separate events.
The Bible does *not* teach a Rapture before Tribulation.
Certainly it does. We are told to WATCH because if we do not watch He will come when we think not.
In Revelation 3 He says He is coming. In Rev 4 we see 24 elders WITH CROWNS. That means Jesus has returned. In Revelation 5 we see the kings and priests of the Church in heaven before the throne. That is before the seals are opened.
Further, the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.
Daniel 9
24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
and part of Israel cannot see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That will be the rapture before the tribulation.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
