Nope. He did not ascend unto His Father till Sunday morning, after He saw Mary Magdalene.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Yes, I fully understand. The wise will always listen, respectfully, even if they disagree, and try to engage the actual argument--not engage in insult. But I can get caught up in the insults, as well.
I actually enjoy, with my wife, any prophecy movie--she is undecided on her own position. I try not to force my position on anyone, though I will vigorously present my arguments. I consider it my duty.
If someone is not receptive, I'm done. If they continue to produce new arguments. I will reply.
I myself have been under Pretrib pastors for decades. My more recent pastors ran away from discussing the issue with me. But they accept that I have a different position.
God bless...
Yes, but in more recent times it is wurst with hot mustard. The German in me is really showing. ;)
The Light
Well-Known Member
Sorry but if you check your history, you will find that all this post tribulation coming of Jesus began with Augustine and couple of others. There was no nation of Israel so they claimed that the Church replaced Israel. God said the nation of Israel would be reborn in a day and so it was and those that doubted God were incorrect.
Common sense should tell you if He is coming in an hour that you think not there will not be a totally clear picture of exactly when that will be. There is plenty of evidence that shows He is coming BEFORE the seals are opened as the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. Additionally, part of Israel cannot see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Nope. As you suspect, I am ignorant as to who these men are. I get my information from the Word of God.
What you aren't getting is that I am Post Trib which is Pre wrath, in addition to being pre trib. I have proven to you that your position is incorrect and yet skipped over it like it was nothing. You think that Post trib and pre wrath are different. They are not. You are actually post wrath.
I have shown you many times that the tribulation is over BEFORE the wrath of God begins. You want to ignore this FACT that we can prove with scripture. You want to claim as many others that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the same coming of Jesus at the end of the trumpets. It is not as I have already PROVEN in scripture. Again, the tribulation is OVER before the wrath of God begins. Let's look again.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
We can prove again that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, which occurs at the 6th seal, (AS MARKED BY THE SIGNS OF THE SUN, MOON AND STARS) happens before wrath in Revelation 14 which is another view of the harvest before wrath.
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
You think you have accomplished something by proving that there is a rapture at the 6th seal, the gathering from heaven and earth. You think this makes you right and anyone that believes in a pretrib rapture is wrong and yet you do not understand that the rapture at the 6th seal is BEFORE wrath not after wrath.
Additionally, it is easy to prove pretribbers are incorrect as they don't recognize there is rapture at the 6th seal, which is Matthew 24 and Revelation 14. The truth of the matter is that the fig tree has two harvests. The first harvest is known as the breba corp. The second harvest is the main harvest. You don't recognize that there is a grain harvest and a fruit harvest. You don't recognize that Jacob had two brides. The fact is that Lord is at the door and it is about to open and you don't see it. That's a fact.
Do you know anything about Shmita cycles? Do you know anything about the United Nations 7 year strengthing of SDG at the last day of the Feast of Trumpets this year. Do you know about the asteroid that is coming in 2029, which likely occurs during the third trumpet of wrath. I could go on and on of the things you don't see happening right in front of you.
The time is very, very, very, very short. He is coming soon in an hour that you think not because you are not watching as instructed.
The early Church believed in that the return of Christ could happen at any moment. That did not change until the time of Augustine.
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The Light
Well-Known Member
Pre tribbers believe the evidence that the Lord is coming in an hour that we think not. They understand that the bride that has made herself ready will not go through the 70th week of Daniel.
Post tribbers believe that the Lord comes for the rapture at the 6th seal. There is excellent evidence that they are correct.
Strangely, neither understands that both are correct. There are two raptures.
Since you're the one claiming that Postrib began with Augustine and a few others, you should share your proof or evidence of this? I think you're confusing Postrib with Amil? And that Amil view supported Replacement Theology, viewing the international Church as "Spiritual Israel."
Every view has "evidence," but you need *explicit theology* to prove your position. 2 Thes has explicit theology proving Christ comes back to destroy Antichrist "with the breath of his mouth." Where is your biblical theology proving Christ comes back before this?
You should get your information from all credible sources that allow you to make educated claims. To say you just rely on the Bible begs the question: "How well do you interpret the Bible if you don't know anything about language or history?"
I do understand what you're saying, but you're describing the various positions wrong. You are not truly "Postrib" if you are also "Pretrib." And you are not truly "Pretrib" if you are also "Postrib." (You seem to actually be a combination of Pre-Wrath and Postrib, which again is a contradiction, confusing 2 different schools of eschatology that are mutually exclusive.)
Perhaps you're just saying that Christ comes twice, once immediately before the Last Day, and again on the Last Day? This wouldn't actually be "Pretrib," but it is a claim that Christ comes *twice.* But where is such a theology found in history? If it is only *your view from the Word of God,* then your claim is that only you in all of history received the truth from God! And that is patently absurd. You really need to belong to a school of interpretation to prove that you aren't the only one God has revealed something to.
The problem here is, I believe, with our definition of "God's Wrath." If we're talking about Eternal Judgment, then all Christians have escaped this from the time they were truly Saved. And they certainly will avoid Eternal Judgment at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
But sometimes, "God's Wrath" is being used as an expression of God's Punishment in history, designed either to lead men to their Eternal Judgment or designed simply to correct and to discipline God's People who have wandered astray. None of us can avoid one of these two aspects of "God's Wrath." We're either disciplined, or we're put to death in order to lead us to Eternal Judgment.
There is yet another use of the term "God's Wrath" that causes confusion on this topic, and it has to do with the "time of God's Wrath." Noah went through the time of God's Wrath in which the Flood destroyed the wicked on earth. He went through that time and experienced the devastation of the earth. And yet this experience of the time of God's Wrath did not indicate he was the target of God's Wrath. He simply went through the time in which God's Wrath was directed at the wicked.
This is what Jeremiah experienced when God began to pour out His Wrath upon Israel. He was persecuted and went through the same devastating time in which the nation was punished by God. But he was not the target of God's Wrath. He simply went through the same time in which it happened, and shared in the experience of this devastation.
The same will be when Antichrist reigns. The world will be under a curse, and the Church will experience the same devastating effects as the people who follow Antichrist. But the Church will not be the target of this Wrath.
I think you're confusing me with someone else? My issue has not been to prove there's a Rapture at the 6th Seal. I simply believe the 6th Seal is yet one more expression of Christ's Postrib Coming, and that the various Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls are not meant to be understood in a strict chronological sequence. They are a series of visions designed to look at Christ's Coming at many angles, not necessarily in chronological order. The 6th Seal, in my view, is simultaneous with the 7th Seal. It is, however, preliminary to the 7th Seal *in the narrative,* because the account is leading up to a more climactic portrait of Christ's Coming at the 7th Trumpet.
I've heard various ways of trying to predict what is coming next. That was not the purpose of biblical prophecy. We prepare for future judgment by getting our lives right now. We live in righteousness to avoid future judgment.
The wicked are utterly unable to prepare for future judgment because the times are kept from them. Remember that Jesus said the "times and seasons" are in God's hands--not ours. Our focus should be on preparing people. Beyond this, it is instructive to show how the Bible predicted that things would get worse, making the call to righteousness even more urgent.
But the wicked who are hardened in their hearts will not recognize that things are necessarily getting worse because for them things are only getting better. They are the things that are "worse."
You are creating your own separate school of theology. If it is rare or non-existent in history then it is likely a fabrication. God does not just speak to one person--He speaks to the whole Church. If nobody but you in the Church "gets it," then either God has failed with His Word, or you are fabricating your own unique viewpoint. And this is just an exercise in vanity. It may be your honest interpretation, but it is hardly likely to be true.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Instead of looking for the blessed hope as instructed, and joining the Lord in heaven for the marriage supper where He has prepared a place for us, the teaching became Christ does not return until after the wrath of God when the dead are judged.
There is plenty of evidence all through scripture. Here's a small sample. The are 24 elders in heaven with crowns in Rev 4. You do not get crowns until Jesus returns. That shows Jesus returns before the seals are opened. We also see that Israel will be regrafted into the olive tree when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in when part of Israel has it's eyes opened. We also have the Feasts of God which is a picture of future events. We have Noah in ark 7 days before the flood. We have the marriage of Ruth, the Gentile, a picture of pretrib. We have Jacob with two brides, the first one was not the chosen bride. It's all over the place and yet it is not seen.
I never said I knew nothing about these things. I was referring to the fact that I do not read anyone's books.
I'm pretrib as the Church will be raptured before the seals are opened and I am post trib because the Lord will return for the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the main gathering from the earth is of the 12 tribes across the earth. That is why they are singing the song of Moses.
Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
There are two raptures.
Actually it is not a contradiction as I have shown you repeatedly with the FACT that Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation which is before the 7th seal and the trumpets of wrath.
I certainly realize that most people think that the tribulation and the wrath of God are the same event. It is not.
This of course makes it extremely hard to communicate and why what I say is glossed over because it makes no sense to many. You have done a very job identifying our differences and I have provided the undeniable scriptural proof that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.
Christ comes before the seals are opened. The dead in Christ rise first. They go to heaven. This is the barley harvest which takes place in the spring. Christ returns for the alive that remained. This is the wheat harvest which takes place in the summer.
Here are these coming of Jesus in the Song of Solomon. This is a secret rapture.
Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.
10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;
13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.
14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.
The wrath of God is the 7th seal. All the trumpets are wrath with judgement following the 7th trumpet.
Noah was in the are 7 days before the flood. A picture of the Church.
Likewise, also the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. A picture of the gathering from heaven and earth before wrath.
The Church will already be in heaven before the seals are opened. The 12 tribe across will be in heaven at the gathering of heaven and earth before wrath.
Only the nation of Israel, those that fled to a place of protection and unbelievers will be in heaven during the wrath of God. We are not appointed to wrath.
The rapture at the 6th seal IS post trib. However, when Christ comes at the 6th seal, He comes to the clouds. He sends His angels for the gathering from heaven and earth.
Christ will return and the end of the trumpets for Armageddon and to set up His kingdom on earth. These are not the same comings.
Additionally, before these events, the Lord Himself comes for the Church, the first bride.
The seals are in order 1 thru 7. The seventh seal contains the trumpets of wrath. The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is not the same coming of Jesus at the end of wrath.
This is incorrect. Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the second harvest. Then the seventh seal is opened and the trumpets of wrath begin after 30 min of silence.
This is not the evidence of Augustine introducing something new, as you claimed. Imminency Teaching did not see Jesus as coming "at any time" in the Early Church AFAIK. They simply saw Jesus' Return as "near," as Jesus himself said. What Jesus meant, I believe, was that the presence of sin rendered his judgment as near, which is what happened in that generation, in 70 AD.
But his eschatological Coming also is "near," because it sort of hovers over the entire world, threatening soon judgment for any and all rebellions against God. Ultimately, Jesus will return to defeat Antichrist.
I ask for *explicit biblical theology," and you give me, as proof, symbolism! ;) One can read anything he wants into parables and symbols.
And this means you don't know much about these things.
As I said, you can't be both Postrib and Pretrib--these schools are mutually exclusive. You can believe in both a Pretrib and a Postrib coming, but you can't belong to both of those schools--it is self-contradictory.
You're using the conventional Pretrib argument that the Church viewed as being *in heaven* in the book of Revelation indicates it has already been raptured from the earth, prior to the revelation of Antichrist. But again, this is apocalyptic symbolism without a necessary chronology. It indicates in many ways how Christ will come and what it means for humanity. Prolepses, portraying the final state of the Church in heaven, can be used to effectively show the Church's victory *in advance* throughout the Revelation.
And I've showed you that the Great Tribulation is not necessarily associated only with the Reign of Antichrist and that the "Final Wrath" is associated with the actual Return of Christ, as opposed to the Pretrib view, which is that God's Wrath occurs over 7 years.
In sum, you use symbolism--not explicit biblical theology--to "prove" your beliefs. No school of eschatology exists to support your beliefs that I know of. You should do more reading and more research.
The Light
Well-Known Member
The book has been sealed even to the time of the end. Just the other day there was another poster that said there are two raptures in one of these threads. Not many people understand these things. When God seals things, they are sealed. We are at the time of the end, where the books are unsealed.
I have proven to you that the tribulation and wrath are different events according to the Word of God even though they are commonly taught as the same event.
Look at this verse.
Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.
This verse says that God's plan was for the fathers of the Jews to be the first fruits of the first harvest. But they went to Baalpeor, the lord of the opening. They will not be the 1st harvest. The Gentiles will be the first harvest. This is why there are 144,000 firstfruits from the 12 tribes. Because they are the first fruits of the second harvest.
This I can tell you. The Lord is at the door. It is getting ready to open. When that happens the plan is already in place for the explanation that the aliens have come and taken people away. We are so close to this moment that ........................
You try in vain to use symbolism to prove theology. The Holy Spirit uses explicit statements to create for the Church its theology. The Holy Spirit does not use esoteric language to be deciphered by clever people who read into it whatever they want to believe.
The Light
Well-Known Member
You search and can only find proof that He comes after the tribulation. You do not believe the very words of our Lord. We are told to watch so we will know when the bridegroom comes for the bride.
Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Because you said it, does not make it so. He comes pretrib for the dead in Christ and then returns for the alive Church that remains. Then the seals are opened.
Then He comes for the seed of the woman Israel at the end of the tribulation.....WHICH IS BEFORE WRATH.
No contradiction whatsoever.
Sure. Since it's correct, why not.
Gods wrath does not last 7 years. The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. THAT HAS BEEN PROVEN OVER AND OVER.
There are two raptures. Pretrib trib tells you that it's before the tribulation. This is when the bridegroom comes for the bride. There are reasons that this is a belief.
Post trib tells you He's coming after the tribulation. This is the second coming when Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. There is a reason that this is a belief.
Both are correct. And to go further, Jesus returns at the end of wrath after the marriage supper with the armies of heaven to set up His kingdom on earth.
The fact that you don't understand these things has no effect on their validity. I have proven that the tribulation and the wrath of God are different events, using undeniable scripture which proves you are incorrect.
The Light
Well-Known Member
There are those with ears to hear and eyes to see.
Matthew 24
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
The word of God means exactly what it says. You seem to have trouble understanding the difference between the days of Noah and the days of Lot. You seem to have trouble understanding the difference between the trump of God and the last trump. Do you not understand the difference between the Lord Himself coming and the Lord sending His angels. Do you not know the difference between the dead in Christ rising first and then the alive that remained being caught up and the dead and alive changed in the twinkling of an eye. I have proven that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins and you still do not understand?
The book is unsealed. The time is short, very, very, very, very short. The wise are watching for the bridegroom as instructed.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
the LORD JESUS compared His Second Coming to Noah AND Lot
JESUS did not establish nor did HE ever say HIS COMINGS
Never add to God's words or take away from them.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Jesus compared His comings to the days of Noah and Lot.
Right. Never add nor TAKE AWAY from the Word.
Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
Being told to "watch" for Christ's Coming does not require belief in Imminency in the sense he can "come at any moment," nor in the sense that he "must come before the Tribulation." There are a lot of reasons Jesus may have used the word "watch." For one, in watching for his Coming we will also watch for anything that may distract us from preparing for his Coming. We can watch out for distractions, for false representations of his Kingdom, etc. So you have no real argument here with respect to the word "watch." It does *not* require Pretribulational expectation.
It most certainly does, if indeed my statement is entirely logical and true. Again, you may say you believe in both a Pretribulational Coming and a Postribulational Coming--I have no argument with that, logically. But when you try to indicate you belong to both *schools,* I do have a logical problem with that.
It is very much true that you cannot belong to both "schools," since they are indeed mutually exclusive, or incompatible. Why you think not troubles me with respect to your reasoning ability? Maybe you just misunderstood me?
You're completely missing my point, which is that the Pretrib argument that Revelation shows the Church is in heaven *before* recounting the Tribulation is not decisive--it is part of an unproven theory, and certainly does not indicate explicit biblical theology.
1) The Church in heaven can be viewed as a prolepsis, a picture of the Church's ultimate place in heaven after the Tribulation.
2) The departed saints are already in heaven, which does not prove a Pretrib Rapture. They have been there since Adam.
3) The Revelation is apocalyptic language, which is highly symbolic, not indicating a specific chronology from vision to vision.
Again, you're trying to prove things using symbolism, which lacks biblical theology. And if it lacks biblical theology, one cannot base their theology, legitimately, on symbolism alone, because symbols can be manipulated to mean whatever a person wants them to mean.
The Holy Spirit speaks clearly when He wishes to establish something *doctrinally.* You base your certainty on something very tenuous if it is based on symbolic passages of Scriptures.
'The fact I don't understand these things?" I think I've likely studied them well before you have? I have no problem at all understanding them!
If you dig into the past, you will find that many popular theories come and go. Build your doctrines on something solid, and if it is still unclear, try to recognize the reasons there are long-held disagreements.
Most Christians are indeed interested in getting it right, and they can only go on what they presently know. So search for evidence that is convincing. By all means, get your doctrine from explicit biblical teaching, or question it until you find satisfaction.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
The days of the Son of Man are here now = "Christ in you the Hope of Glory"
"Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
However, these "days" are about to come to an End for this world = Luke 13: 23-25
"And He said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’"
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There is such a thing as false revelation. If you think you're seeing revelation in Scriptures about doctrine when there is no explicit theology, you're being deceived. You need to be careful.
No, I have no trouble understanding these kinds of differences. If you try to read something into these differences, the problem is with you--not me!
Again, you sound like you're trying to be esoteric. Stick with Scriptures and don't hold to revelation that is distinct from the Word of God.
Yes, the dead rise up 1st in Paul's message as an indicator that they are not left behind in the glorification process. Otherwise, the living would rise to glory, and the dead would stay dead.
This isn't being said to establish an important chronological order as in following an instruction manual on how to put something together. Rather, it is stating a matter of importance with respect to priority. The living must not obtain glory unless the dead come back 1st in order to share in the experience. I think you miss the whole point in this order?
I understand that you are mis-identifying what "the Tribulation" is, and trying to define the "Wrath of God" using your own sense of timing. I've told you what Jesus said the Tribulation was. It was, for the Jews, an age-long period of punishment, leading either to a recovery of individuals to the nation or an abandonment to eternal judgment.
I've told you God's Wrath can be viewed in different ways, as Eternal Judgment, as Disciplinary Punishment, or as Judgments of God in this life intended to either correct someone or to eternally punish someone. It may involve death, or it may involve suffering.
Your understanding fails to comprehend these many differences in the discussion of God's Wrath and Tribulation. So you think to "understand" you I have to "agree" with you? Maybe you should humble yourself a little?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
@Randy Kluth says: "Rather, it is stating a matter of importance with respect to priority.
The living must not obtain glory unless the dead come back 1st in order to share in the experience.
I think you miss the whole point in this order?"
God's Order Verified = 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians ch15 and do not forget Daniel 12:1-3 which is the OT Prophetic
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