Being told to "watch" for Christ's Coming does not require belief in Imminency in the sense he can "come at any moment," nor in the sense that he "must come before the Tribulation." There are a lot of reasons Jesus may have used the word "watch." For one, in watching for his Coming we will also watch for anything that may distract us from preparing for his Coming. We can watch out for distractions, for false representations of his Kingdom, etc. So you have no real argument here with respect to the word "watch." It does *not* require Pretribulational expectation.
The argument is that you want me to provide evidence that pinpoints His coming when the fact is the only way we will know when He comes is to watch.
It most certainly does, if indeed my statement is entirely logical and true. Again, you may say you believe in both a Pretribulational Coming and a Postribulational Coming--I have no argument with that, logically. But when you try to indicate you belong to both *schools,* I do have a logical problem with that.
Again. That defies logic. He comes for the Church before the seals are opened as evidenced by 24 elders with crowns. You do not get crowns until Jesus comes.
He comes for the harvest of the 12 tribes across at the 6th seal before the day of wrath...........immediately after the tribulation as evidenced by those raptured singing the song of Moses.
Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
You can tap dance around the facts all you want, it does not change a thing whether you understand or not.
It is very much true that you cannot belong to both "schools," since they are indeed mutually exclusive, or incompatible. Why you think not troubles me with respect to your reasoning ability? Maybe you just misunderstood me?
No. I understand you perfectly. My logic is very sound. Pre trib for the Church. Post trib for the seed of the woman Israel, the twelve tribes across the earth. The 144,000 first fruits are evidence of this harvest.
You're completely missing my point, which is that the Pretrib argument that Revelation shows the Church is in heaven *before* recounting the Tribulation is not decisive--it is part of an unproven theory, and certainly does not indicate explicit biblical theology.
1) The Church in heaven can be viewed as a prolepsis, a picture of the Church's ultimate place in heaven after the Tribulation.
2) The departed saints are already in heaven, which does not prove a Pretrib Rapture. They have been there since Adam.
3) The Revelation is apocalyptic language, which is highly symbolic, not indicating a specific chronology from vision to vision.
Your argument falls apart when there are crowns on the 24 elders. You don't get crowns before Jesus comes. And this occurs before the seals are opened.
Again, you're trying to prove things using symbolism, which lacks biblical theology. And if it lacks biblical theology, one cannot base their theology, legitimately, on symbolism alone, because symbols can be manipulated to mean whatever a person wants them to mean.
The Holy Spirit speaks clearly when He wishes to establish something *doctrinally.* You base your certainty on something very tenuous if it is based on symbolic passages of Scriptures.
I just understand what I am reading. For example, when I see 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes, I know the 1st harvest has occurred and these are the first fruits of the second harvest. Then when that harvest occurs, they are singing the song of Moses. That doesn't mean anything to you, but it tells me exactly what is happening.
'The fact I don't understand these things?" I think I've likely studied them well before you have? I have no problem at all understanding them!
How is it that you think that the tribulation and the wrath of God are the same thing when I have Biblically proven that they are not. Do I need to go through it again? Of did you get it?
If you dig into the past, you will find that many popular theories come and go. Build your doctrines on something solid, and if it is still unclear, try to recognize the reasons there are long-held disagreements.
I don't care about theories. I'm more interested in what does the Word of God say.
Most Christians are indeed interested in getting it right, and they can only go on what they presently know. So search for evidence that is convincing. By all means, get your doctrine from explicit biblical teaching, or question it until you find satisfaction.
Simply put, you don't understand the order of Revelation. If you understood the order of Revelation you would see that it all fits together perfectly and there are two harvests.
