The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[Timtofly]

What is the earth that is referenced in 2 Peter 3:10 that Peter said will be burned up? Is it something besides the planet earth?

What was the earth flooded in Noah's day?

As in Noah's day water destroyed everything but the earth, so at the Second Coming fire will do the same thing. The earth did not cease to exist or flee away. That only happens over 1,000 years later, give or take 42 months.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This thread is not about how God is going to bring an end to the current order but about whether or not the thousand years mentioned in the Revelation will follow it.

I don't particularly look forward to the Day of the LORD, but I do look forward to what will follow it. I've provided ample proof that the New Testament never uses the word zao (used in Revelation 20:4) in reference to people who are not alive in their bodies, and I've provided ample proof that the word anastasis used in reference to those who are zao after their beheading, is always and only used in reference to the bodily Resurrection in the New Testament.

The thousand years in Revelation 20 is said in that context.

I could also provide ample scriptural quotes that teach us that Satan, though utterly defeated at Calvary, is no more bound (yet) than he is thrown into the lake of fire yet.

@ewq1938 has also provided ample proof that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is literal.

The proof is flatly ignored by those who must interpret Peter's thousand years and Revelation's thousand years metaphorically or symbolically, i.e for the sake of Amillennialism.

PS: How much exactly does any of this matter to us now? Will it matter to us in the New Heavens and New Earth?

Neither of you have come anywhere near explaining how 2 Peter 3:3-13 can possibly fit with Premillennialism, so please do not act as if you've provided airtight arguments in favor of Premillennialism when you have provided no convincing arguments at all for how 2 Peter 3 can possibly be reconciled with Premil. And when you are provided scriptures like John 5:28-29 that show all the dead being raised at generally the same time and scriptures like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, and Matthew 25:31-46 which show all people being judged at the same time you just brush those aside in favor of a literal interpretation of Revelation 20.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

False. "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years" proves a time of a thousand years is inbetween the first group to resurrect and the second group.

So, do you think Jesus was mistaken by saying that a time (singular - not two times) is coming when all of the dead will be raised?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What was the earth flooded in Noah's day?

What is your question here exactly? I can't make sense of it.

As in Noah's day water destroyed everything but the earth, so at the Second Coming fire will do the same thing.

It destroyed everything on the earth except for those who were saved and that is what will happen at the second coming, only this time by fire. That is my argument based on what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:5-7 and what Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-39. I'm not arguing that the earth will be completely annihilated and replaced by a completely different "new earth" and I pointed this out already before. I believe the entire surface of the planet earth that we're living on now will be burned up and renewed at the second coming of Christ, resulting in the new earth.

 

[Timtofly]

But, what can be said about those martyrs before they died? According to Revelation 1:5-6, Jesus IS "the ruler of the kings of the earth" and His people ARE "a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father". Does that change when believers physically die? No. So, that has to be taken into account when interpreting Revelation 20:4-6.

This is not an ongoing phenomenon.

Sure there are Christians today in this age who have years as royal priesthood both now and after physical death.

But your definition places these as living prior to the first century, the OT in Abraham's bosom. You have to be caiming that having one's head chopped off is symbolic of the whole OT redeemed. Why did the church go with David's examples in the Psalms, instead of adopting Revelation 20:4 as describing all the OT redeemed?

Why are Amil today being so dogmatic that Revelation 20:4 only means the OT redeemed?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is not an ongoing phenomenon.

Sure there are Christians today in this age who have years as royal priesthood both now and after physical death.

But your definition places these as living prior to the first century, the OT in Abraham's bosom. You have to be caiming that having one's head chopped off is symbolic of the whole OT redeemed. Why did the church go with David's examples in the Psalms, instead of adopting Revelation 20:4 as describing all the OT redeemed?

Why are Amil today being so dogmatic that Revelation 20:4 only means the OT redeemed?

This post here really illustrates just how clueless you really are. No Amil says that Revelation 20:4 only describes "the OT redeemed". Just please stop replying to me if this is the kind of nonsense that you're going to respond with.

 

[Timtofly]

What does that even mean, to "stay with God's Word as written"? Such a meaningless thing to say. That usually means someone is interpreting everything in a wooden, literal fashion without using any spiritual discernment and without any regard for context or the style of writing (literal, symbolic, metaphorical, poetic, apocalyptic, etc.)

This is the most hypocritical ridiculous point. As written is not being wooden. As written includes all the above. As written is to determine the context, the words, the style, etc.

What you are avoiding is that Amil pick and choose instead of "as written". If the words don't back up their views, they complain they are too figurative. If verses do not have the exact same words, and they don't fit Amil, such verses are tossed out as irrelevant.

Some posters accept the good with the bad because they are just pointing out the Word of God and no theological agenda to defend.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is the most hypocritical ridiculous point.

LOL. Oh, really? And why is that?

As written is not being wooden.

That's how he appeared to mean it. Do you speak for him?

As written includes all the above. As written is to determine the context, the words, the style, etc.

Yeah, you and I may recognize that, but does Davy? How do you know that is what he meant? What is even the point of saying something like that? We all think we interpret it as written. It serves no purpose to say that.

What you are avoiding is that Amil pick and choose instead of "as written".

Amil interprets passages like John 5:28-29 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 literally as it is written and Revelation 20 figuratively as it is written. So, I completely disagree with you on that.

If the words don't back up their views, they complain they are too figurative. If verses do not have the exact same words, and they don't fit Amil, such verses are tossed out as irrelevant.

You have nothing to support your view, so all you can do is resort to making false accusations. Just like most premils do.

 

[Timtofly]

You missed the point. Do you even make any effort at all to understand what others are saying? What I'm saying is that word is not used to refer to the act of being resurrected itself. But the word anazao is. So, why wasn't the word anazao used in Revelation 20:4 like it was in verse 5 to describe the rest of the dead living again?

Interesting question, but living again would be physical not spiritual, because spiritual is in Paradise not on earth.

Even you argue this point claiming Lazarus only lived again and was not resurrected. Being resurrected would indicate never dying again in Paradise. Living again would indicate they never actually died and the soul was never in Paradise. The same point you are avoiding, for various reasons. Where were these souls between physical death and living again?

You cannot answer that, because if they were in Paradise why is there a first resurrection? They were already in Paradise, no? Now you claim a resurrection is just a soul in Paradise remaining in Paradise? How is that a change?

Now you can say these were the entire OT redeemed removed from Abraham's bosom. How did they come out of their tombs with physical bodies then? You can never declare there is never a physical resurrection. A first resurrection is only the physical and never the spiritual. It is the physical body that lives again, period.

After 4 days of decay, and since Lazarus was a leper, his body was in very bad shape. He would have looked like a walking zombie, unless his whole physical body was restored as if it had never had any decay at all, ie incorruptible. Your Lazarus example fails the process of being called out of one's grave to receive the Resurrection and the Life. You claim the soul only enjoyed Paradise.

I will stick with the implication that Lazarus experienced the total package: the Resurrection and the Life. That is the promise Jesus made and kept.

Is living again physical and on earth?
Is a resurrection the entrance into Paradise?

Jesus said one time is coming when all of the dead will be raised, not two. You are choosing to twist John 5:28-29 to fit your view of Revelation 20 instead of allowing the very straightforward text of John 5:28-29 to aid your understanding of Revelation 20.

How can time be plural? Jesus did not say time nor day. Jesus said hour. Yes we can have multiple times. We can have multiple days. We can have multiple hours. You reject that hour is the Cross, because your Amil theology forbids the Cross as the hour to come.

Your phrase makes more sense this way: the time is coming. The one time is coming is your own imagination. Adding the word "one" is twisting Scripture as Amil bias.

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,"

Even the Greek states "is coming" "an hour". The word "one" or "single" is not found in the text. I have no issue with "the time is coming", but you add the word "one".

There is no reason to reject the fact this was fulfilled in Matthew 27. There is no reason to apply this to Revelation 20:4 or the event at the GWT. The only reason why Amil change all context and the reasonable fulfillment beingvthe Cross, is their agenda and bias. Amil add words to the text, lean on human opinion known as recapitulation, and totally deny that many did indeed come out of their graves at the Cross. Quite a lot of hoops and red flags.

 

[Truth7t7]

Explain to me how Revelation 20 is not physical.

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Timtofly]

That's correct, there is one future time that all the dead will be resurrected, there are two groups on this last day resurrection, 1. saved righteous, 2. unsaved wicked

Opinion, and no Scripture.

 

[Truth7t7]

Isaiah 65 has death. The Millennium is Isaiah 65. It has all those nice things you describe.

Explain to me how Revelation 20 is not physical. If you claim it as the here and now that is physical, no? You are being hypocritical if Revelation 20 is physical because it is now, and not physical after the Second Coming.

Isaiah 65 below represents the New Heaven and Earth, not a Millennium as you claim

Isaiah 65:17-19KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

 

[Timtofly]

So, do you think Jesus was mistaken by saying that a time (singular - not two times) is coming when all of the dead will be raised?

No, that time started at the Cross, and won't ever stop. I guess when time stops, and existence is no more, it will no longer apply.

 

[Truth7t7]

Opinion, and no Scripture.

The First Resurrection, On The Last Day Explained?

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[GEN2REV]

Can you show the verse that claims only one resurrection? Was Lazarus the only resurrection?

I could show you lots of verses that refer to "THE" resurrection, singular, but you wouldn't be impressed.
Verses with Jesus speaking that start with "In the resurrection" ... "At the resurrection" , etc.

If there were more than one, not counting Jesus' resurrection, Jesus would have spoken of resurrection(s) plural, at a minimum, when He spoke of the resurrection, but He is clearly speaking of the resurrection upon His return when He does speak of it.

If there were an additional one at a later date, surely He would've clearly addressed that in the Gospels.

He does not.

 

[Truth7t7]

Can you show the verse that claims only one resurrection? Was Lazarus the only resurrection?

Lazarus was "Raised From The Dead" no resurrection took place as you claim

John 12:9KJV
9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.

 

[ewq1938]

So, do you think Jesus was mistaken by saying that a time (singular - not two times) is coming when all of the dead will be raised?

Jesus did not ever say there was one time when all the dead are resurrected. He said there was a time when the righteous and unrighteous would resurrect but never did he say at the same time and day. He was clear in Revelation 20, which you apparently reject, that some of the dead would live, and "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" That automatically proves your position wrong. Was Christ wrong in Revelation 20? Why do the rest of the dead not resurrect when the others did??

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?

Yes.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

2.) Physical Earthly Throne?

Of course, more than one even:

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev_22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

Yes, the thousand years is all about them!

Second coming:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The verb RULE here is in the future tense so it happens after the events of Armageddon are completed.

After the second coming:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Even Daniel saw beasts still alive after the destruction of the ten horned beast and beasts are kingdoms full of people! That further proves a thousand years of ruling over people!

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The peoples who made up these beasts will live on for a season and a time, and that TIME is the thousand years.


Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

And guess what we have here? Christ comes after the ten horned beast is destroyed and he is given a kingdom! That kingdom begins at the start of the thousand years just as Premillennialism teaches. All of this proves Amillennialism to be false.

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

That's laughable and sad because the claims are scriptural.

 

[ewq1938]

The First Resurrection, On The Last Day Explained?

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

This is false.
Revelation 20 is the only book to tell us how much time is between the resurrection of the saved VS. the resurrection of the unsaved. It shows that there is a thousand years inbetween the two mass resurrections.

Rev 20 speaks of two groups of the dead that resurrect/live again.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of this first group of the dead because they resurrect first. The rest have to wait for their resurrection:

"the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev 20:5)

This is the last resurrection of those who are dead. One group resurrected and "the rest" or the remaining ones did not resurrect when the others did.

This proves they partake of the second resurrection also known as the last resurrection because no one is still physically dead after they "live again". This proves without a doubt that there are two separate days of resurrections separated by a thousand years.

The first group resurrects before the thousand years begins and the second/last group resurrects after the end of the thousand years.

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The resurrection of life is the first resurrection of Revelation 20 that happens BEFORE the thousand years. The resurrection of damnation is the resurrection that is AFTER the thousand years mentioned by Revelation 20:5.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Obviously this is speaking of the resurrection to life, eternal life. The unsaved dead are not mentioned because they are not part of that resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

This also addresses only those of the resurrection to eternal life, the first resurrection group of Revelation 20.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

That is the day of the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) which is the last day of this Earth before the new Earth is seen in Revelation 21.

 

[ewq1938]

Lazarus was "Raised From The Dead" no resurrection took place as you claim

John 12:9KJV
9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.

lol! Being raised from the dead IS A RESURRECTION! Sheesh! See, if I add this to my list someone is going to say I am lying about an Amillennialist saying that because no one could be so "uninformed".