The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[Truth7t7]

Yes.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.




Of course, more than one even:

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev_22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.





Yes, the thousand years is all about them!

Second coming:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The verb RULE here is in the future tense so it happens after the events of Armageddon are completed.

After the second coming:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Even Daniel saw beasts still alive after the destruction of the ten horned beast and beasts are kingdoms full of people! That further proves a thousand years of ruling over people!

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The peoples who made up these beasts will live on for a season and a time, and that TIME is the thousand years.


Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

And guess what we have here? Christ comes after the ten horned beast is destroyed and he is given a kingdom! That kingdom begins at the start of the thousand years just as Premillennialism teaches. All of this proves Amillennialism to be false.




That's laughable and sad because the claims are scriptural.

Not one word provided shows a Kingdom on this earth, with mortal humans present In Revelation 20:1-6

 

[Truth7t7]

This is false.
Revelation 20 is the only book to tell us how much time is between the resurrection of the saved VS. the resurrection of the unsaved. It shows that there is a thousand years inbetween the two mass resurrections.

Rev 20 speaks of two groups of the dead that resurrect/live again.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of this first group of the dead because they resurrect first. The rest have to wait for their resurrection:

"the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev 20:5)

This is the last resurrection of those who are dead. One group resurrected and "the rest" or the remaining ones did not resurrect when the others did.

This proves they partake of the second resurrection also known as the last resurrection because no one is still physically dead after they "live again". This proves without a doubt that there are two separate days of resurrections separated by a thousand years.

The first group resurrects before the thousand years begins and the second/last group resurrects after the end of the thousand years.




The resurrection of life is the first resurrection of Revelation 20 that happens BEFORE the thousand years. The resurrection of damnation is the resurrection that is AFTER the thousand years mentioned by Revelation 20:5.





Obviously this is speaking of the resurrection to life, eternal life. The unsaved dead are not mentioned because they are not part of that resurrection.





This also addresses only those of the resurrection to eternal life, the first resurrection group of Revelation 20.






That is the day of the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) which is the last day of this Earth before the new Earth is seen in Revelation 21.

I strongly disagree, there is one future resurrection of all that have lived,this takes place on the last day at the Lord's second coming (The End)

 

[Truth7t7]

lol! Being raised from the dead IS A RESURRECTION! Sheesh! See, if I add this to my list someone is going to say I am lying about an Amillennialist saying that because no one could be so "uninformed".

Being raised from the dead is not a resurrection

There is one future resurrection of all, this takes place on the last day at the Lord's second coming (The End)

 

[ewq1938]

I strongly disagree, there is one future resurrection of all that have lived,this takes place on the last day at the Lord's second coming (The End)

Then you reject the scripture:

"the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev 20:5)

 

[ewq1938]

Being raised from the dead is not a resurrection

Yes it is. Don't you have a dictionary? Concordance?



G386
ἀνάστασις
anastasis
an-as'-tas-is
From G450; a standing up again, that is, (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, general or by implication (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth): - raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.
Total KJV occurrences: 42



Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again (G386 anastasis): and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection (G386 anastasis):

Here we have both wordings in the same verse!

This won't convince you that you are wrong though.

 

[Truth7t7]

Then you reject the scripture:

"the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev 20:5)

Yes the resurrection takes place at the end of the 1,000 year reign

Yes the 1,000 year reign is taking place now in the Lord's spiritual realm, and it will end at the second coming of Jesus Christ (The End)

 

[Truth7t7]

Then you reject the scripture:

"the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev 20:5)

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes the resurrection takes place at the end of the 1,000 year reign

It says the remainder of those who are dead resurrect after the thousand years so there was a resurrection before it. That proves there are two resurrections separated by many many years. That proves a core part of Amillennialism to be wrong. You are dodging what the text tells us because you know it destroys your doctrine.

 

[Timtofly]

What is your question here exactly? I can't make sense of it.

It destroyed everything on the earth except for those who were saved and that is what will happen at the second coming, only this time by fire. That is my argument based on what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:5-7 and what Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-39. I'm not arguing that the earth will be completely annihilated and replaced by a completely different "new earth" and I pointed this out already before. I believe the entire surface of the planet earth that we're living on now will be burned up and renewed at the second coming of Christ, resulting in the new earth.

Then this cannot be Revelation 20:11

"And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;"

It can apply to Revelation 6:12-14

"And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and lo, a great earthquake came, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood, and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth -- as a fig-tree doth cast her winter figs, by a great wind being shaken -- and heaven departed as a scroll rolled up, and every mountain and island -- out of their places they were moved;"

Not even the mountains were annihilated.

Do you deny that creation is literally annihilated at the GWT event outside of time and creation?

Obviously you deny dispensations and claim creation is one single time frame. The next time frame is not the Second Coming. The next time frame is a totally different creation. Do you think this same creation is also the next one?

That is still dispensational. You allow a different dispensation in the same creation. Your time is over at the GWT, I agree. But this earth is literally gone, and not by fire. This verse does not claim all creation consumed by fire:

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

How can this be literally or figurative of this:

"from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

When the fire came down and devoured a huge number of people, did it also cause heaven itself to dissappear? This is all a leap in logic.

If you reject that the NHNE is not an entirely different reality, how do you justify your rejection of dispensations?

You point out I do not make sense when there was a new heaven and earth after the Flood. Just stating a new heaven and earth is pointless without context. Especially if you don't think the world is ever annihilated. I would not put words in your mouth that the earth is dissolved. Yet that is exactly your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:8

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

This cannot be the end at the GWT, if you claim the earth is not annihilated. Believe it or not but there cannot be two earths. That should be evident to one who claims a single time, a single hour, or even a single day, as in 24 hours.

If you claim the earth is not annihilated, how can there be a different reality? If there is not another reality, why are you not dispensational?

 

[Truth7t7]

It says the remainder of those who are dead resurrect after the thousand years so there was a resurrection before it. That proves there are two resurrections separated by many many years. That proves a core part of Amillennialism to be wrong. You are dodging what the text tells us because you know it destroys your doctrine.

We disagree, I have shown you the last day resurrection of all several times, it takes place at the second coming of Jesus Christ (The End)

 

[ewq1938]

We disagree, I have shown you the last day resurrection of all several times, it takes place at the second coming of Jesus Christ (The End)

This is going on my list! This is a first for you, Earburner has two on my list. You need to catch up!


There are two different days of resurrection, one before the Millennium and one after. Only the first one takes place at the second coming. Even the second one is after the second coming in Amillennialism:

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them (Amillennialism's second coming).
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


As you can see, the resurrection of the unsaved dead does not occur at the second coming as you claim. It is an unknown amount of time between
verse 9 and verse 12. Either way, it is after the second coming.



Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

 

[Timtofly]

This post here really illustrates just how clueless you really are. No Amil says that Revelation 20:4 only describes "the OT redeemed". Just please stop replying to me if this is the kind of nonsense that you're going to respond with.

Well certainly no one post the Cross had even died yet. The OT is the only period where death existed. Your excuse of nonsense to avoid a decent conversation is telling.

If you don't have any answers to your own claims, and or paranoid you may be wrong, and thus cherry pick your objections, why even have conversations in these forums?

Now is the resurrection in Revelation 20:4 at the start of your own alledged Millennium or not? It is a simple yes or no answer.

Of course if you claim it is even a resurrection would that not force you to point out more than one? Probably should just keep up the personal attacks and insults. They are more genuine than Amil theology.

 

[Zao is life]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see where you ever answered my question regarding what "the earth" refers to in 2 Peter 3:10. Do you believe it refers to the planet earth or something else? I still don't really know how exactly you currently interpret 2 Peter 3:10-12. I know you said you're not sure, but you seemed to indicate that you currently see it as being figurative language. I don't see how that can be the case, especially if it's referring to the literal heavens and literal planet earth (the surface of earth, at least).

You asked me a question twice that needs a long answer so please don't complain re the length of my reply.

I believe it's very, very important to consider both the context of 2 Peter 3, and the meaning of Greek words.

1.THE GREEK WORD arérchomai (Strong's Greek Dictionary #3928, from 3844: pará; and 2064: érchomai) can mean to come near, or to pass nearby, or to have passed. or to go away:

It can mean to come near:

Luke 12:37 Updated KJV
36 And all of you yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he comes and knocks, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he comes shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to food, and will come forth [parérchomai] and serve them.

Luke 12:37 YLT
37 `Happy those servants, whom the lord, having come, shall find watching; verily I say to you, that he will gird himself, and will cause them to recline (at meat), and having come near [parérchomai], will minister to them;

Acts 24:7
7 But the chief captain Lysias came upon us [parérchomai], and with great violence took him away out of our hands.

Luke 17:7 Updated KJV
7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he has come from the field, Go [parérchomai] and sit down to food?

Luke 17:7 YLT
7 `But, who is he of you--having a servant ploughing or feeding--who, to him having come in out of the field, will say, Having come near [parérchomai], recline at meat?

It can mean to pass by closely:

Luke 18:37
37 And they told him, that Jesus of Nazareth passes by [parérchomai].

Matthew 8:28
28 And when He had come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, two demon-possessed ones met Him, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one might pass by [parérchomai] that way.

It can mean to have passed:

Matthew 14:15
15 And when it was evening, his disciples came to him, saying, This is a desert place, and the time is now past [parérchomai]; send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves victuals.

Acts 27
9 And much time having been used up, and the voyage already being dangerous, because the Fast was now already past [parérchomai], Paul warned them.

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away [parérchomai]; behold, all things are become new.

Matthew 24
33 So likewise all of you, when all of you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass [parérchomai], till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away [parérchomai], but my words shall not pass away [parérchomai].

It can mean to go away or be removed:

Matthew 26:39
39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me [parérchomai]: nevertheless not as I will, but as you will.

Matthew 5:18
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass [parérchomai], one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass [parérchomai] from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Revelation 21:1
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away [parérchomai]; and there was no more sea.

2. THE GREEK WORD Gē ("EARTH")

The Greek word gē (earth) can refer to a country or region, or to the entire planet, example:

Land, country or region:

Matthew 2:6
6 And you Bethlehem, in the land [gē] of Juda, are not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of you shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Matthew 9:31
31 But they, when they were departed, spread abroad his fame in all that country [gē].

Matthew 9:26
26 And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land [gē].

Entire planet:

Matthew 5
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth [gē]; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

THE CONTEXT OF 2 PETER 3​

The chapter divisions in the New Testament (including the book of Revelation) were only inserted in the year 1227 A.D. Before this, there were no chapter divisions.

The context of 2 Peter chapter 2 is the wicked works of men. That's the introduction to what Peter is saying in chapter 3 about the day that Christ comes in judgment. The word stoicheîon (elements) employed in 2 Peter 3:10 & 12 refers to the works of men in Galatians 4:3 & 9; Colossians 2:8 & 20; and Hebrews 5:12, not to the elements of the earth.

(I'm not asking questions here because I want you to answer them, but to make a point):

Question: Is the Day of Christ the day of His coming in judgment? Will His perousia burn up the works of men? Is heaven/the heavens coming near [parérchomai] or going away [parérchomai] when Christ appears?

So let's have a look at the meaning of some more Greek words in this passage:

"Dissolved":
03089 λύω lýō, loo'-o
a primary verb;
to "loosen" (literally or figuratively):--break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-)loose, melt, put off.
Compare 4486.

"Fire":
04448
πυρόω pyróō, poo-ro'-o
from 4442;
to kindle, i.e. (passively) to be ignited, glow (literally), be refined (by implication), or (figuratively) to be inflamed (with anger, grief, lust):--burn, fiery, be on fire, try.

"Burned up":
02618
κατακαίω katakaíō, kat-ak-ah'-ee-o
from 2596 and 2545;
to burn down (to the ground), i.e. consume wholly:--burn (up, utterly).

2 Peter 3
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [parousía]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall [parérchomai] with a great noise, and the [stoicheîon] shall melt with fervent heat, the earth [gē] also and the works that are therein shall be burned up [2618 katakaíō].

Compare the above with the following, bearing in mind that the context of 2 Peter 2-3 is the wicked works of men:

1 Corinthians 3:15
15 If any man's work shall be burned [katakaíō], he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire [pŷr].

Revelation 18:8
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned [katakaíō] with fire [pŷr]: for strong is the Lord God who judges her.

Matthew 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather all of you together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn [2618 katakaíō] them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

2 Peter 3
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved [lýō], what manner of persons ought all of you to be in all holy conversation and godliness.

2 Peter 3
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens [3772 ouranós] being on fire [4448 pyróō] shall be dissolved [lýō], and the [stoicheîon] shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness.

In the Greek text of the above it says simply, (the coming of the day of God wherein) ouranós pyróō lýō.

It could just as well mean heaven will dissolve the wicked works of men by fire.

Question: Does the earth have works? Do rocks have works? The only way they can have works is if someone picks up a rock and throws it at you. Even then, it will be the works of men.

So in my opinion, it's far more likely that:

The context of 2 Peter 2-3 is the wicked works of men being burned up when heaven comes near in the day of Christ's perousia.

 

[Timtofly]

Lazarus was "Raised From The Dead" no resurrection took place as you claim

John 12:9KJV
9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.

Explain how one is not a resurrection and the other is not a resurrection:

Not one word provided shows a Kingdom on this earth, with mortal humans present In Revelation 20:1-6

Not one Amil here will explain how souls resurrected in Revelation 20 just remain souls with no physical body. They were physically killed on earth, so why not raised to earth like Lazarus? Was John the Baptist the only individual "not resurrected" because he was the only one beheaded? The rest would not be resurrected until fire comes down from heaven killing only people? Then those consumed by fire are resurrected? Amil literally makes no sense cause no one is ever resurrected in their scenarios. A soul resurrected remaining a soul is your only resurrection? The dead being cast into the LOF is your only resurrection? Then those in Matthew 27 never came out of their graves?

 

[Zao is life]

Neither of you have come anywhere near explaining how 2 Peter 3:3-13 can possibly fit with Premillennialism, so please do not act as if you've provided airtight arguments in favor of Premillennialism when you have provided no convincing arguments at all for how 2 Peter 3 can possibly be reconciled with Premil. And when you are provided scriptures like John 5:28-29 that show all the dead being raised at generally the same time and scriptures like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, and Matthew 25:31-46 which show all people being judged at the same time you just brush those aside in favor of a literal interpretation of Revelation 20.

Matthew 13:39 just confirms what I said in my previous post #633.

02618
κατακαίω katakaíō, kat-ak-ah'-ee-o
from 2596 and 2545;
to burn down (to the ground), i.e. consume wholly:--burn (up, utterly).

Matthew 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather all of you together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn [katakaíō] them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

1 Corinthians 3:15
15 If any man's work shall be burned [katakaíō], he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire [pŷr].

Revelation 18:8
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned [katakaíō] with fire [pŷr]: for strong is the Lord God who judges her.

Matthew 4
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven [ouranós] is at hand.

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which [ouranós] shall [parérchomai] with a great noise, and the [stoicheîon] shall melt with fervent heat, [gē] also and the works that are therein shall [ katakaíō].

[parérchomai] can mean to come near, to pass closeby, to have passed, to be removed.

(i) It can mean to come near, for example in Luke 12:37; Acts 24:7 & Luke 17:17

(ii) It can mean to pass by closeby, for example in Luke 18:37 & Matthew 8:28.

(iii) It can mean to have passed, for example in Matthew 14:15; Acts 27:9; 2 Corinthians 5:17 and Matthew 24:34-35.

(iv) It can mean to go away or be removed, for example Matthew 26:39; Matthew 5:18 & Revelation 21:1.

Is the Day of Christ the day of His coming in judgment? Will His parousía burn up the works of men? Is heaven/the heavens coming near [parérchomai] or going away [parérchomai] when Christ appears?

3 (a) The Greek word gē (earth) can refer to a land, or a country or a region, for example in Matthew 2:6; Matthew 9:26 &31.

(b) It can refer to the entire planet, for example in Matthew 5.

So 2 Peter 3 is only talking about what Revelation (close of Chs. 11, 13, 16, 19) and Matthew 24:29-31 are talking about. And none of those passages are saying anything more than that Christ is coming in judgment, in flaming fire taking vengeance on His enemies, as Paul puts it in 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

 

[Zao is life]

Neither of you have come anywhere near explaining how 2 Peter 3:3-13 can possibly fit with Premillennialism, so please do not act as if you've provided airtight arguments in favor of Premillennialism when you have provided no convincing arguments at all for how 2 Peter 3 can possibly be reconciled with Premil. And when you are provided scriptures like John 5:28-29 that show all the dead being raised at generally the same time and scriptures like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, and Matthew 25:31-46 which show all people being judged at the same time you just brush those aside in favor of a literal interpretation of Revelation 20.

But you brush aside the fact that zao is never used in the New Testament in reference to someone who is not alive and living in their bodies. And you brush aside the fact that zao is used in Revelation 20:4-6 alongside the word anastasis which is only used in reference to the bodily resurrection in the New Testament. And you brush aside that this is said in connection with them having been beheaded. And you brush aside that this is said in connection with their refusal to have worshiped (it's said in the past tense) the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name.

And all 2 Peter 3 is doing is confirming that our Lord is returning in judgment and will in flaming fire take vengeance on His enemies. It's said in the context of Peter talking about the wicked works of men, esp of those who claim to be saints.

 

[ewq1938]

And all 2 Peter 3 is doing is confirming that our Lord is returning in judgment and will in flaming fire take vengeance on His enemies.

Here's how I see it:


2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

The world in general does not believe God is coming to make changes to this world. They believe it will continue like it has been since the beginning. These people also have no understanding of a "second coming". They simply deny that God will come at all to punish them. From a Christian's perspective this starts with the second coming and the destruction of the Beast's rule over this world which includes destruction of his army which enabled and enforced that global rule. That leaves the world ready to be ruled by Christ and His heavenly army of angels and immortal saints, leaving the nations unable and unwilling to resist a new rule. Eventually Satan will be released and God will destroy this last rebellion and cast Satan and the unrighteous into the LOF and that's when the biggest change to this world and the Heavens begins, found in Revelation 21. Peter will start discussing that in the next verses:


2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

This is a reference to the day of the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) and the LOF and not the second coming. The second coming involved the resurrection of the dead in Christ, rapture, and judgment of the righteous. The above verse speaks of the judgment of the unrighteous who will all be dead then will be resurrected to be judged and then sentenced to perish a second time ie: the lake of fire second death.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This is commonly mistaken for being the second coming but it is a different "day of the Lord". A quick search of the bible will reveal that many different days of the Lord, sometimes called the day of the Lord, other times we see the day of the Lord Jesus, and sometimes "the day of God". A day of the Lord/God is a day when something big/important happens. It is not only the second coming which comes like a thief in the night.


2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Here "the day of God" is used and it refers to the New Heaven and new Earth in Revelation 21 which is long after the second coming is completed. The GWTJ happens BEFORE the New Heaven and new Earth. It does not happen at or during the second coming. It is a separate and different day altogether. Once the judging and punishing is finished, then will the New Heaven and new Earth arrive.

We can be sure the burning and melting of the Earth and Heaven does not happen at the second coming because no second coming passage has any of that happening thus it is a misinterpretation to think the above verses about that fire are related to the second coming.

 

[Zao is life]

Here's how I see it:


2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

The world in general does not believe God is coming to make changes to this world. They believe it will continue like it has been since the beginning. These people also have no understanding of a "second coming". They simply deny that God will come at all to punish them. From a Christian's perspective this starts with the second coming and the destruction of the Beast's rule over this world which includes destruction of his army which enabled and enforced that global rule. That leaves the world ready to be ruled by Christ and His heavenly army of angels and immortal saints, leaving the nations unable and unwilling to resist a new rule. Eventually Satan will be released and God will destroy this last rebellion and cast Satan and the unrighteous into the LOF and that's when the biggest change to this world and the Heavens begins, found in Revelation 21. Peter will start discussing that in the next verses:


2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

This is a reference to the day of the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) and the LOF and not the second coming. The second coming involved the resurrection of the dead in Christ, rapture, and judgment of the righteous. The above verse speaks of the judgment of the unrighteous who will all be dead then will be resurrected to be judged and then sentenced to perish a second time ie: the lake of fire second death.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This is commonly mistaken for being the second coming but it is a different "day of the Lord". A quick search of the bible will reveal that many different days of the Lord, sometimes called the day of the Lord, other times we see the day of the Lord Jesus, and sometimes "the day of God". A day of the Lord/God is a day when something big/important happens. It is not only the second coming which comes like a thief in the night.


2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Here "the day of God" is used and it refers to the New Heaven and new Earth in Revelation 21 which is long after the second coming is completed. The GWTJ happens BEFORE the New Heaven and new Earth. It does not happen at or during the second coming. It is a separate and different day altogether. Once the judging and punishing is finished, then will the New Heaven and new Earth arrive.

We can be sure the burning and melting of the Earth and Heaven does not happen at the second coming because no second coming passage has any of that happening thus it is a misinterpretation to think the above verses about that fire are related to the second coming.

I used to believe that until I noticed the description of the blessedness and privilege of those who came out from the great tribulation (and are now zao after the first anastasis), is the same as the description of the NHNE in Revelation 21:

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?
14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them. Revelation 7:15
Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. Revelation 21:3
For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. Revelation 7:17
And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away. Revelation 21:4
To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely. Revelation 21:6

He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. Revelation 21:7-8
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. Revelation 20:5-6

That caused me to realize that there's more to this than I thought.

In Revelation 21 the kings of the earth shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into New Jerusalem, but nothing that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life will enter into New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24-27).

Isaiah 60
1 Arise, shine; for your light has come, and the glory of the LORD has risen on you.

because the abundance of the sea shall turn to you, the wealth of the nations will come to you. Isaiah 60:5
and the kings of the earth do bring their glory (dóxa) and honour (timḗ) into it. Revelation 21:24
Therefore your gates will always be open; they will not be shut day nor night, to bring to you the wealth of the nations, and their kings may be led. Isaiah 60:11
And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory (dóxa) and honour (timḗ) of the nations into it. Revelation 21:25-26.
Your sun will no more go down, nor your moon withdraw; for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and the days of your mourning will be ended. Isaiah 60:20
And the city had no need of the sun, nor of the moon, that they might shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it, and its lamp is the Lamb. And the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. Revelation 21:23-24.

The second death is mentioned in Revelation 21 but not in Revelation 22.

Revelation 22
2 In the midst of its street, and of the river, from here and from there, was the Tree of Life, which bore twelve fruits, each yielding its fruit according to one month. And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And every curse will no longer be;

In Revelation 20 they will reign for a thousand years but in Revelation 22 they will reign for ever and ever:

βασιλεύσει (He will reign) forever and ever: Revelation 11:15 (Christ).
βασιλεύσουσιν (they will reign) on the earth: Revelation 5:10 (those who overcome).
βασιλεύσουσιν (they will reign) with Christ a thousand years: Revelation 20:6 (those who overcame).
βασιλεύσουσιν (they will reign) forever and ever: Revelation 22:5.

 

[ewq1938]

I used to believe that until I noticed the description of the blessedness and privilege of those who came out from the great tribulation (and are now zao after the first anastasis), is the same as the description of the NHNE in Revelation 21:

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?
14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7 is describing the eternity. I wrote something detailing the chronology of Revelation. This is part of it:

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Here is a major jump in chronology. John now sees a huge multitude of people, all arrayed in white robes which symbolizes righteousness and that they are in spiritual bodies. They have come through "great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" which places this past the tribulation period and into the eternity. This multitude has overcome and have been judged to life.

Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

As you can see, the throne is not empty. God the Father is there upon it, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is next to Him and He will be on the right side of the throne.

This is a major "clue" to documenting just when this happens, for there are only certain times that the full Godhead (where they are, the Holy Spirit is naturally present) will be together like this, especially with a numberless crowd in the white robes of righteousness standing before them and giving praise. In short, this is definitely not happening right after the tribulation but a time after that. The next verses will help to establish just when this actually is.

Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Again, this would not be happening directly after the tribulation had ended, which would be the beginning of the millenium for at that time Christ leaves heaven and takes most if not all of heavens angels and returns to the Earth at the 7th trump. Either this verse happens before that happens in heaven, or this is happening the next time Christ is together with God the father which wouldn't be until judgement day, and all time after that.

Revelation 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

This is comparable to this:

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Ok, this is where it gets interesting.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

It is commonly assumed that this coming out "of great tribulation" is a reference to the tribulation of the antichrist and refers to no other tribulation. It actually means any and all tribulations, that these overcame all of them rather than a specific one. There are several "tribulations" that these shall endure through in order to be standing here in white robes praising God. The first one shall be that tribulation hour of the antichrist, then any who took satan's mark will suffer through God's tribulation, which will be all peoples except the elect which is a considerably smaller number than this multitude, and then there is that last testing of satan when he is released from the pit at the end of the millenium and will convince and persuade a great numberless multitude to follow him to war with God. Unfortunately if they choose satan at that time, they shall be judged according to that decision for judgement starts right after that.

So, there are several times of tribulation, and even that 1000 year period could be considered another time of tribulation for those who must endure through the teaching and the disciplining.

tribulation
2347

2347 thlipsis {thlip'-sis}

from 2346; TDNT - 3:139,334; n f

AV - tribulation 21, affliction 17, trouble 3, anguish 1,
persecution 1, burdened 1, to be afflicted + 1519 1; 45

1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
2) metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits

Tribulation is just a really rough time, of varying degrees. A time of distress, a time of stress, pressure and so forth.

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

That is God's tribulation and its something to be avoided.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

If this supposedly happens right after the end of the first tribulation of the antichrist, then this is within the time of the millennium, the 1000 year reign of Christ. Do that many people have access to the temple in the millennium? I'm afraid not, for only the priests of the Zadok shall have access to the temple during that time. There shall not be such a large number of people who can approach the throne, in front of the full Godhead who are clothed as they are being symbolic of purity and righteousness. It also says the one on the throne dwells among them. When does God the Father dwell among mankind like this? The Eternity!

Rev_21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

This should sound familiar. When is there a time that we should not hunger nor thirst anymore?

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

In chapter 21 we have passed the time of judgement are are now being given a glimpse of the eternity in the new age with the new Heaven and the new Earth ages beginning.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

This is why we thirst no more. Christ gives unto us the water of life, and it will quench our thirst forever.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And
let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

This is something available to those who overcome and are that bride of Christ.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

This is the tree of life and we shall partake of it's fruits and there will be no hunger. The famine of the end times is for hearing the word of God, but at this time the word of God will be with us forever and we shall never hunger again.

Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Again, this is something that only takes place during the eternity.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for
the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Amen, let there be light, the light of Christ.

Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

He shall feed us and give us to drink from the waters of life.

Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

There is only one time that God dwells with us and wipes away our tears my friends:

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is
with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

There shall be no tears or sorrow at that time because they are of the things that are passed away and do not exist anymore. This only exists during the eternity.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all
nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the
Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This also happens in the eternity.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Revelation 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

The nations come before the throne to honor God.

In conclusion, Revelation 7:9-end is a glimpse of the eternity as are the latter chapters of Revelation, and this great multitude is there before the throne not simply after the tribulation, but after all tribulations have ended. They have overcome all tribulations they have faced and have been judged to life and are free to worship God forever and partake of all the wonderful things promised to us by God.