The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[Spiritual Israelite]

28. Was satan bound and imprisoned at the cross or when Christ resurrected?

Not according to Revelation 12. Amillennialism teaches satan was bound at the cross or when Christ resurrected yet we read in Revelation 12 that after the ascension, satan is cast out of heaven with his angels and then we read, "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

There is no binding or imprisoning at all! In Revelation 12 he proceeds to "persecute the woman which brought forth the man child" and after that he continues his rampage, "went to make war with the remnant of her seed". The context of Revelation 12-13 shows that satan is more powerful and has been given more authority to persecute and kill members of the Church! That is the OPPOSITE of being bound.

Furthermore, Christ certainly didn't say the binding and imprisonment in the pit was going to happen anywhere near the cross or Ascension. What he did say about when he would be gone is that the ruler of the world, satan, would be coming. That is the opposite of what happens in the Millennium.

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the ruler of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Where does it say that Satan would be bound from persecuting believers? I'm not seeing that anywhere. Looks like you're adding something regarding his binding that scripture itself never teaches.

 

[Zao is life]

Of course. But, it's all very important as far as I'm concerned. The way people view eschatology can and often does affect the way they live their lives. Especially when it comes to how people view modern day Israel, but in other ways as well.

In fact, 2 Peter 3:10-12 should be having an effect on how we live our lives. If we properly understand that it at least potentially relates to a literal, physical global destruction event that could happen in our lifetimes (instead of it being figurative or it being literal but not happening until 1,000+ years later) then it should lead us "to live holy and godly lives".

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

We don't want to be among those who are killed by the fire that will come down upon the earth on the day Christ returns, which will result in "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "will not escape" (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3). So, that should motivate us to make an effort "to live holy and godly" lives while we look forward to that day.

Yes, 2 Peter 3:11-12 & 14 is part of 2 Peter 1:5-11. Peter hasn't forgotten the opening of his epistle by the time he closes it.

 

[Zao is life]

but you stubbornly just dismiss it without ..

Being a defender of the faith is not equal to being a defender of Amillennialism. Maybe you and @ewq1938 are both correct in certain respects and both wrong in certain respects.

For example, note that the Greek noun used in Revelation 20:5-6 for "the first resurrection" is ho anástasis: "the (bodily) resurrection".

Speaking only about those who believe in Him, Jesus said,

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life." (John 5:24).

Then He said,

"Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming and now [νῦν nŷn] is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they who hear shall live." (John 5:25)

nŷn means "now", of this present time".

Acts 2:27-31 tell us that when Christ died, His soul went to hades, and Peter tells us that by the Spirit Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19).

"Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28-29).

Matthew 27:52-53 records the following where the death of Christ is recorded: "Many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep arose, and coming out of the tomb after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many."

The resurrection spoken about in John 6:39-40, 44 & 54; 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17; and Revelation 20:4-6 is talking only about the resurrection of those who died in Christ. These verses say nothing about a general resurrection of all the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:17-18 says,

"And if Christ is not raised, your faith is foolish; you are yet in your sins. Then also those that fell asleep in Christ were lost."

Again, speaking of those who fell asleep in Christ. Then Paul continues,

"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruit of those who slept. For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:19-22).

Then he says,

"But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming." (1 Corinthians 15:19-23).

It's speaking only of the resurrection of those who are Christ's at His coming.

It's only "those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands." who are said to reign with Christ a thousand years. No mention is made of all the other saints who had died in Christ. No mention is made of those who were not even in Christ through faith in Christ.

Revelation 20:4 speaks about those who are living (záō), and relates it to the anastasis (bodily resurrection) but Revelation 20:12-13 speaks not about the living (záō) standing before God to be judged by what is written in the books, but the dead (nekrós).

In my opinion there is no 'resurrection' whatsoever implied in that statement. John is describing how he saw death and hades delivering up the ghosts (souls) in them for God's Great White Throne judgment. Nekros = dead, and the passage says the dead will stand before God's great white throne to be judged by what is written in the books, not the zao (the living).

So we do not have enough evidence for ANYTHING we claim regarding the timing of the resurrection of the just and the unjust. It may have happened way back in the first century (I said MAY HAVE), and those who have died without Christ since then remain dead until the dead stand before the GWT of God.

Maybe the witnesses who were killed for their testimony mentioned in Revelation 20 are "the two witnesses" who were killed by the beast for their testimony and rose from the dead, and may they will reign over all the other resurrected saints for a thousand years in a new heavens and new earth, and there will be no mortals or anyone else except resurrected saints.

Maybe the close of Revelation Chapter 20 is the complete circle from Genesis Chapter 3 where after God had breathed eternal life into Adam, Adam & Eve were living forever in paradise during the sabbath rest of God, and Satan was released and Adam fell. Maybe the first time God's grace promised the Messiah, but the second and last time there will be no more grace for anyone who follows Satan's rebellion, no 2nd sacrifice, and no 2nd resurrection from the 2nd death.

Maybe, maybe, maybe. But like yourself and @ewq1938 (even though you don't know it because you believe you have the puzzle all fitting together nice and neatly), I don't have enough evidence for ANYTHING I say, except for when I say that defending the gospel is not equal to defending Amillennialism or Premillennialism.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Being a defender of the faith is not equal to being a defender of Amillennialism.

I never said it was.

Maybe you and @ewq1938 are both correct in certain respects and both wrong in certain respects.

For example, note that the Greek noun used in Revelation 20:5-6 for "the first resurrection" is ho anástasis: "the (bodily) resurrection".

Speaking only about those who believe in Him, Jesus said,

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life." (John 5:24).

Then He said,

"Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming and now [νῦν nŷn] is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they who hear shall live." (John 5:25)

nŷn means "now", of this present time".

Acts 2:27-31 tell us that when Christ died, His soul went to hades, and Peter tells us that by the Spirit Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19).

"Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28-29).

Matthew 27:52-53 records the following where the death of Christ is recorded: "Many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep arose, and coming out of the tomb after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many."

The resurrection spoken about in John 6:39-40, 44 & 54; 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17; and Revelation 20:4-6 is talking only about the resurrection of those who died in Christ. These verses say nothing about a general resurrection of all the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:17-18 says,

"And if Christ is not raised, your faith is foolish; you are yet in your sins. Then also those that fell asleep in Christ were lost."

Again, speaking of those who fell asleep in Christ. Then Paul continues,

"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruit of those who slept. For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:19-22).

Then he says,

"But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming." (1 Corinthians 15:19-23).

It's speaking only of the resurrection of those who are Christ's at His coming.

It's only "those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands." who are said to reign with Christ a thousand years. No mention is made of all the other saints who had died in Christ. No mention is made of those who were not even in Christ through faith in Christ.

Revelation 20:4 speaks about those who are living (záō), and relates it to the anastasis (bodily resurrection) but Revelation 20:12-13 speaks not about the living (záō) standing before God to be judged by what is written in the books, but the dead (nekrós).

In my opinion there is no 'resurrection' whatsoever implied in that statement. John is describing how he saw death and hades delivering up the ghosts (souls) in them for God's Great White Throne judgment. Nekros = dead, and the passage says the dead will stand before God's great white throne to be judged by what is written in the books, not the zao (the living).

Then what do you make of what Jesus said here:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

When else will "those who have done what is evil...rise to be condemned" than at the great white throne judgment? Just because Revelation 20:12-13 does not specifically reference their resurrection doesn't mean they are not resurrected. Not all passages about the day of judgment contain all of the details about it.

So we do not have enough evidence for ANYTHING we claim regarding the timing of the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

I think we do, but you're free to think otherwise, of course.

It may have happened way back in the first century (I said MAY HAVE), and those who have died without Christ since then remain dead until the dead stand before the GWT of God.

I know you're only saying that MAY HAVE happened, but I woudn't even allow for that possibility because scripture indicates that God has appointed one day (a one time event) when He will judge everyone (Acts 17:30-31).

Maybe the witnesses who were killed for their testimony mentioned in Revelation 20 are "the two witnesses" who were killed by the beast for their testimony and rose from the dead, and may they will reign over all the other resurrected saints for a thousand years in a new heavens and new earth, and there will be no mortals or anyone else except resurrected saints.

Maybe the close of Revelation Chapter 20 is the complete circle from Genesis Chapter 3 where after God had breathed eternal life into Adam, Adam & Eve were living forever in paradise during the sabbath rest of God, and Satan was released and Adam fell. Maybe the first time God's grace promised the Messiah, but the second and last time there will be no more grace because there will be no resurrection from the 2nd death.

Maybe, maybe, maybe. But like yourself and @ewq1938 (even though you don't know it because you believe you have the puzzle all fitting together nice and neatly), I don't have enough evidence for ANYTHING I say, except for when I say that defending the gospel is not equal to defending Amillennialism or Premillennialism.

You shouldn't have a problem with it if someone has more confidence in what they believe than what you have in what you believe. There's nothing wrong with that. Yet, you seem to be offended at how confident I am about what I believe. Oh well. I can't help that.

As far as your last statement goes, of course that's true. I don't believe that defending Amillennialism is more important than defending the gospel.

 

[Zao is life]

I never said it was.

Then what do you make of what Jesus said here:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

When else will "those who have done what is evil...rise to be condemned" than at the great white throne judgment? Just because Revelation 20:12-13 does not specifically reference their resurrection doesn't mean they are not resurrected. Not all passages about the day of judgment contain all of the details about it.

I think we do, but you're free to think otherwise, of course.

I know you're only saying that MAY HAVE happened, but I woudn't even allow for that possibility because scripture indicates that God has appointed one day (a one time event) when He will judge everyone (Acts 17:30-31).

You shouldn't have a problem with it if someone has more confidence in what they believe than what you have in what you believe. There's nothing wrong with that. Yet, you seem to be offended at how confident I am about what I believe. Oh well. I can't help that.

As far as your last statement goes, of course that's true. I don't believe that defending Amillennialism is more important than defending the gospel.

I'm not offended. I just don't understand why you would accuse someone else who has as much confidence as you (but disagrees with you) of being stubborn.

As long as you believe you definitely have all the pieces fitting all neatly together, you will never question, for example, if there is a difference between the one judgment day and the other in the verses below:

Acts 17
30 Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now He strictly commands all men everywhere to repent,
31 because He has appointed a day in which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by a Man whom He appointed, having given proof to all by raising Him from the dead.

John 12
31 Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself.
33 But He said this, signifying what kind of death He was about to die.

God's judgment was decreed 120 years before the flood came upon the world, but like flood coming upon the ark, Jesus, the ark of our covenant, bore the world's judgment upon Himself, and was lifted up from the world.

The judgment has already been carried out. Jesus said those who believe in Him shall not perish but those who do not believe are condemned already. Their unbelief has condemned them already:

Hebrews 11:7
"By faith Noah, having been warned by God of things not yet seen, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

So how is the one judgment that is still coming the same as the judgment that has already come?

Psalm 50
4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, so that He may judge His people.
5 Gather My saints to Me; and those who cut My covenant by sacrifice.
6 And the heavens shall declare His righteousness; for God Himself is judge. Selah.
7 Hear, My people, and I will speak, O Israel, and I will testify against you; I am God, your God.

Psalm 9
7 But the LORD shall endure forever; He has prepared His throne for judgment.
8 And He shall judge the world in righteousness; He shall judge the peoples in uprightness.

Your puzzle may have pieces in places where they don't fit. How sure are you sure they all fit? Can you learn that you may have some pieces where they don't fit when you're 100% convinced your pieces all fit?

 

[Earburner]

I'm not offended. I just don't understand why you would accuse someone else who has as much confidence as you (but disagrees with you) of being stubborn.

As long as you believe you definitely have all the pieces fitting all neatly together, you will never question, for example, if there is a difference between the one judgment day and the other in the verses below:

Acts 17
30 Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now He strictly commands all men everywhere to repent,
31 because He has appointed a day in which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by a Man whom He appointed, having given proof to all by raising Him from the dead.

John 12
31 Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself.
33 But He said this, signifying what kind of death He was about to die.

God's judgment was decreed 120 years before the flood came upon the world, but like flood coming upon the ark, Jesus, the ark of our covenant, bore the world's judgment upon Himself, and was lifted up from the world.

The judgment has already been carried out. Jesus said those who believe in Him shall not perish but those who do not believe are condemned already. Their unbelief has condemned them already:

Hebrews 11:7
"By faith Noah, having been warned by God of things not yet seen, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

So how is the one judgment that is still coming the same as the judgment that has already come?

Psalm 50
4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, so that He may judge His people.
5 Gather My saints to Me; and those who cut My covenant by sacrifice.
6 And the heavens shall declare His righteousness; for God Himself is judge. Selah.
7 Hear, My people, and I will speak, O Israel, and I will testify against you; I am God, your God.

Psalm 9
7 But the LORD shall endure forever; He has prepared His throne for judgment.
8 And He shall judge the world in righteousness; He shall judge the peoples in uprightness.

Your puzzle may have pieces in places where they don't fit. How sure are you sure they all fit? Can you learn that you may have some pieces where they don't fit when you're 100% convinced your pieces all fit?

Most Christians forget that that God has already issued two judgments.
1. The judgment of eternal death.
2. The judgment of eternal life.
John.3[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God's first judgment of man was the issuance of death, through Adam.
However, most Christians are unaware that
God's second judgment of man, was for the Gift of eternal life through faith in Jesus.

1John.5[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


Whoever does not come to repentance towards God, through faith in Jesus, remains condemned under the first judgment.

 

[ewq1938]

I was talking in terms of those who are alive on earth being physically destroyed. That is portrayed in both Revelation 19:17-18 and Revelation 20:9.

No. Revelation 189 shows an army being destroyed, and a different army being destroyed in Revelation 20. Neither is a global slaughter.

Is it going to happen twice or are those speaking of the same event? It's clear to me that they are the same event and history is not going to basically repeat itself 1,000+ years after Christ returns.

One army is killed by a symbolic sword from Christ 66 miles from Jerusalem, the other is killed by God the father using fire at Jerusalem. How is that the same battle?

You're not reading the text carefully enough. I have pointed this out to you before, but you stubbornly just dismiss it without excepting what this says.

No, YOU aren't reading the text carefully enough and are ignoring context.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

ewq1938 says: "In Revelation 19, Jesus only destroys an army and it's leaders not a global slaughter".

Revelation 19 itself says: Jesus will destroy not only "the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders", but "the flesh of ALL PEOPLE, free and slave, great and small".

Obviously that is all of that army. The passage never ventures to the whole world. Anyone who can read can see that. You are making it a global slaughter to support your doctrine.

You're not recognizing that, in Revelation, Armageddon is a figurative reference and not a literal, physical place where people will literally gather together to battle.

You aren't recognizing it is a real place where battle were fought in the past and will be a literal place where another battle shall take place.

It's not any more literal than mystery Babylon, for example. Or any more literal than the sword coming out of Christ's mouth. When Revelation refers to Babylon it's not talking about the literal, physical Babylon we know about from the Old Testament, but rather about a figurative or spiritual Babylon. The same is true for Armageddon.

Babylon is symbolic of religiously deceived people, not a real city. Armageddon is a real place.

Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

See? The army is gathered there. Obviously this is a literal place. Symbolizing everything guts the true meaning from scripture. One must be able to recognize when things are clearly symbolic like the sword and Babylon, but recognize the literal like Armageddon and the resurrection.

 

[ewq1938]

Where does it say that Satan would be bound from persecuting believers? I'm not seeing that anywhere. Looks like you're adding something regarding his binding that scripture itself never teaches.

How can I add something that you invented out of thin air? Strawman fallacy much?

 

[Zao is life]

Most Christians forget that that God has already issued two judgments.
1. The judgment of eternal death.
2. The judgment of eternal life.
John.3[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God's first judgment of man was the issuance of death, through Adam.
However, most Christians are unaware that
God's second judgment of man, was for the Gift of eternal life through faith in Jesus.

1John.5[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Whoever does not come to repentance towards God, through faith in Jesus, remains condemned under the first judgment.

I agree but we need to define the word "judgment" because there was also a universal judgment in the days of Noah, and there will be another universal judgment when fire comes down from God out of heaven and destroys the armies of Gog & Magog.

In-between there have been a lot of local judgments, for example upon the house of Israel (the Northern kingdom of Israel), later upon Judah and Jerusalem, later upon the Babylonian Empire, which covered much of the entire known world in its day, later still upon Judah and Jerusalem in 70 A.D. There will be another judgment of the armies of the beast ("Armageddon"), and after the final universal judgment of Gog & Magog, one final great white throne judgment.

The first judgment that you call "the judgment of eternal death" was not so much of a judgment as it was the consequence of Adam's unbelief of the Word of God after the serpent had said "You will not surely die":

1. Adam's death, which came to all mankind.

2. Christ's (the last Adam's) Resurrection from the dead after His sacrifice for Adam's and all the sons of Adam's sin. Christ IS the Resurrection and the Life. He will raise all those who belong to Him at the last day.

3. The 2nd death. * There is no 2nd sacrifice for sin, and no 2nd resurrection following the 2nd death.

The resurrection spoken about in John 6:39-40, 44 & 54; 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17; and Revelation 20:4-6 is referring to a bodily resurrection and is talking only about the resurrection of those who died in (faith in) Christ.

So we need to define what we mean by the word "judgment".

 

[Earburner]

No. Revelation 189 shows an army being destroyed, and a different army being destroyed in Revelation 20. Neither is a global slaughter.

One army is killed by a symbolic sword from Christ 66 miles from Jerusalem, the other is killed by God the father using fire at Jerusalem. How is that the same battle?

No, YOU aren't reading the text carefully enough and are ignoring context.

Obviously that is all of that army. The passage never ventures to the whole world. Anyone who can read can see that. You are making it a global slaughter to support your doctrine.

You aren't recognizing it is a real place where battle were fought in the past and will be a literal place where another battle shall take place.

Babylon is symbolic of religiously deceived people, not a real city. Armageddon is a real place.

Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

See? The army is gathered there. Obviously this is a literal place. Symbolizing everything guts the true meaning from scripture. One must be able to recognize when things are clearly symbolic like the sword and Babylon, but recognize the literal like Armageddon and the resurrection.

Actually, what we are witnessing in Ukraine , is again another "purposeful demonstration" of the 2H Beast (US), orchestrating it's ability to make fire come down from heaven, in the sight of men and in the presence of the 10H Beast (Europe).
The results of that is shown in
Revelation 9:13-21, specifically verses [14] Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
[15] And the four angels* were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

The eventual and ultimate result of the present conflict in Ukraine will lead to a nuclear WW3, whereby 1/3 of men are slain/killed in ONE DAY. If you look closely at the words in verse 15, you will perceive that it is describing a date. 1/3 of men are destroyed in a single day.

*Note: there are four countries that literally border the Euphrates river. They are:
Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran.

Israel to simulate massive military strike on Iran as nuclear fears grow

 

[Earburner]

I agree but we need to define the word "judgment" because there was also a universal judgment in the days of Noah, and there will be another universal judgment when fire comes down from God out of heaven and destroys the armies of Gog & Magog.

In-between there have been a lot of local judgments, for example upon the house of Israel (the Northern kingdom of Israel), later upon Judah and Jerusalem, later upon the Babylonian Empire, which covered much of the entire known world in its day, later still upon Judah and Jerusalem in 70 A.D. There will be another judgment of the armies of the beast ("Armageddon"), and after the final universal judgment of Gog & Magog, one final great white throne judgment.

The first judgment that you call "the judgment of eternal death" was not so much of a judgment as it was the consequence of Adam's unbelief of the Word of God after the serpent had said "You will not surely die":

1. Adam's death, which came to all mankind.

2. Christ's (the last Adam's) Resurrection from the dead after His sacrifice for Adam's and all the sons of Adam's sin. Christ IS the Resurrection and the Life. He will raise all those who belong to Him at the last day.

3. The 2nd death. * There is no 2nd sacrifice for sin, and no 2nd resurrection following the 2nd death.

The resurrection spoken about in John 6:39-40, 44 & 54; 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17; and Revelation 20:4-6 is referring to a bodily resurrection and is talking only about the resurrection of those who died in (faith in) Christ.

So we need to define what we mean by the word "judgment".

Both of the judgments that I have described culminates on the Day of Jesus' Glorious return in flaming fire. At that time, all will have decided to either remain as a "goat", or will have converted as a "sheep".

The born again Saints of God will all be redeemed.
Unfortunately, the unconverted will be totally destroyed, having no escape from God's wrath.
You do know the scriptures that support it, but I perceive that the pre-mil view is giving you the opportunity to "scoff" at them.

 

[PinSeeker]

Both of the judgments that I have described culminates on the Day of Jesus' Glorious return in flaming fire.

Well, Jesus is the fire. Our God is a consuming fire, right?

As for the two judgments you described, I am assuming you mean the following, from your quote above:

God's first judgment of man was the issuance of death, through Adam... God's second judgment of man, was for the Gift of eternal life though faith in Jesus.

I would certainly agree with you regarding the first; the judgment issued is subjection to death, both spiritual in the subjection to spiritual death (immediately for Adam and Eve, as God said in Genesis 2:17, and from birth for all who have come after), and physical in the subjection to physical death (the first death). But there is a promise in that, too, that both spiritual life can be had in this life, and then eternal life even after the physical death, through the promised Savior, the first allusion to that being found in Genesis 3:15.

But the "second judgment" that you mention here is not a judgment at all, but a promise, again, first alluded to in Genesis 3:15, but repeated in various ways through all the prophets (Old Testament) and the gospels and apostles (New Testament). And like all God's promises, it finds its 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus.

The second judgment is the final Judgment, which will be executed by Jesus upon His return ~ depicted graphically in symbolic and literal ways by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46 and by John in his vision in Revelation 20:11-15.

"First" and "second" are used throughout the Bible regarding several things, and the first is the initial, and the second is the final and permanent. One prominent example is the first Adam (Adam, of course), and the second Adam, Jesus. There is also the first and second resurrection...

1. the first being spiritual, when, as Paul says in Romans 8 and Ephesians 2 among other places, we as believers, each at his/her appointed time in this life, are justified in our sin by God, are called inwardly by the Holy Spirit, and have our hearts changed from stone to flesh... thus we are born again of the Holy Spirit through God-given faith​

2. the second being physical, when, at the end of this age, we are bodily resurrected ~ along with everyone else but to the resurrection to eternal life rather than the resurrection to eternal judgment... Yes, at this time, all will have decided to either remain as a "goat", or will have been converted to Christ and been made to be one of His sheep.​

And the first and second death...

1. the first being physical, each of us at our appointed time, our departure from this life, and experienced by all​

2. the second being spiritual, which is the result of this second, final Judgment, and is the final, permanent state of condemnation under God's judgment, experienced forever and in permanent separation from the new heaven and new earth​

If you look at a.) the first and second resurrection and b.) the first and second death closely, I think you will see that the two (a and b) are the total reverse of each other in every aspect.

The born again Saints of God will all be redeemed.

Yes, I don't disagree, here, but this is kind of... well, incomplete. We, as born again saints of God, are redeemed now, even in this life. But we will be fully redeemed at the return of Christ and upon the final Judgment. This is what we call the "now-and-not-yet" of the Gospel.

Unfortunately, the unconverted will be totally destroyed, having no escape from God's wrath.

Okay, I agree with this, too, but I'm not sure what you mean by "totally destroyed." If you mean "totally destroyed" in the sense of totally and eternally ruined, and departing from the new heaven and new earth, having no hope of redemption and ever again experiencing God's grace but only judgment, then I'm tracking right with you. But if you mean "totally destroyed" in the non-biblical sense of non-existence and annihilation... not so much.

You do know the scriptures that support it, but I perceive that the pre-mil view is giving you the opportunity to "scoff" at them.

Ah, so not subscribing to the pre-mill view is a good thing. I'm not sure exactly where you stand, but I'm with you on that, at least.

Grace and peace to you, Earburner. And to all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not offended. I just don't understand why you would accuse someone else who has as much confidence as you (but disagrees with you) of being stubborn.

As long as you believe you definitely have all the pieces fitting all neatly together, you will never question, for example, if there is a difference between the one judgment day and the other in the verses below:

Acts 17
30 Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now He strictly commands all men everywhere to repent,
31 because He has appointed a day in which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by a Man whom He appointed, having given proof to all by raising Him from the dead.

John 12
31 Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself.
33 But He said this, signifying what kind of death He was about to die.

God's judgment was decreed 120 years before the flood came upon the world, but like flood coming upon the ark, Jesus, the ark of our covenant, bore the world's judgment upon Himself, and was lifted up from the world.

The judgment has already been carried out. Jesus said those who believe in Him shall not perish but those who do not believe are condemned already. Their unbelief has condemned them already:

Hebrews 11:7
"By faith Noah, having been warned by God of things not yet seen, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

So how is the one judgment that is still coming the same as the judgment that has already come?

Psalm 50
4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, so that He may judge His people.
5 Gather My saints to Me; and those who cut My covenant by sacrifice.
6 And the heavens shall declare His righteousness; for God Himself is judge. Selah.
7 Hear, My people, and I will speak, O Israel, and I will testify against you; I am God, your God.

Psalm 9
7 But the LORD shall endure forever; He has prepared His throne for judgment.
8 And He shall judge the world in righteousness; He shall judge the peoples in uprightness.

Your puzzle may have pieces in places where they don't fit. How sure are you sure they all fit? Can you learn that you may have some pieces where they don't fit when you're 100% convinced your pieces all fit?

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly or not. Do you not believe in a future judgment day which will occur when Christ returns with His angels (Matthew 25:31-46) and/or that occurs after the thousand years and Satan's little season?

In terms of John 12:31-33, I understand that Satan is already judged in the sense that his fate is already sealed. But, that doesn't mean that Revelation 20:10 has already occurred. Would you agree with that or not?

I'm not completely clear as to what you're trying to say in your post, so your answer to my questions might help clarify that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How can I add something that you invented out of thin air? Strawman fallacy much?

You are the one who is acting as if Satan's binding has something to do with him being bound from persecuting believers. If that's not what you were intending, then maybe you need to take a class on how to communicate more clearly.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. Revelation 189 shows an army being destroyed, and a different army being destroyed in Revelation 20. Neither is a global slaughter.

Your lack of willingness to address what the text actually says is unbelievable. Let me show you once again.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

In your Bible is verse 18 cut off at the word "riders"? You limit the destruction to the "kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders", but ignore that it expands the destruction out to "all people, free and slave, great and small". Why do you ignore that?

One army is killed by a symbolic sword from Christ 66 miles from Jerusalem, the other is killed by God the father using fire at Jerusalem. How is that the same battle?

How many times do I have to tell you that destruction with a SYMBOLIC sword does not describe the LITERAL method of destruction? Please tell me what is hard to understand about that. The method of destruction is not described literally in Revelation 19, but it is in Revelation 20. Very simple. In each case the destruction is global because they described the destruction of all unbelievers. And what is described in Revelation 20:9 lines up with what it says in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

And, you continue to not recognize that references to places like the Euphrates, Armageddon, Babylon and Magog in Revelation are figurative and are not referring to actual literal, physical locations. We can see in Revelation 20:7 that "Gog and Magog" figuratively represent "the nations in the four corners of the earth".

No, YOU aren't reading the text carefully enough and are ignoring context.

How so exactly? I don't ignore the fact that Revelation 19:18 refers to the destruction of "all people"

Obviously that is all of that army. The passage never ventures to the whole world. Anyone who can read can see that. You are making it a global slaughter to support your doctrine.

LOL. No, I'm taking it as global slaughter because it says "all people". Somehow, for you, "all people" only means some people in one location.

You aren't recognizing it is a real place where battle were fought in the past and will be a literal place where another battle shall take place.

No, it is not. Why would you assume that the reference to Armageddon should be taken literally as a physical battle where a battle was fought in the past when we know that other physical entities and places referenced in the book are only figurative references and not literal, such as Babylon and Magog?

Babylon is symbolic of religiously deceived people, not a real city. Armageddon is a real place.

No, Armageddon WAS a real place in the past just like Babylon WAS a real city in the past.

Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

See? The army is gathered there. Obviously this is a literal place.

Oh, really? So, do you think Magog a literal place in Revelation 20:7, too?

Revelation 20: When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

It should be clear that Magog is referenced figuratively here to represent "the nations in the four corners of the earth" rater than the literal place referenced in the Old Testament. The reference to Armageddon should be understood similarly.

Symbolizing everything guts the true meaning from scripture.

I don't symbolize everything. Exaggerate much? For example, I take Revelation 19:18 very literally to refer to the destruction of all people who are still on the earth when Christ returns (all except believers who are caught up to Him at that time, of course), but you don't.

Anyway, if it was true that symbolizing everything guts the true meaning from scripture, then it seems that symbolizing anything would gut the true meaning from scripture. But, neither is true. Just because something is symbolized doesn't mean it's fictional. It just means something real is being described symbolically. What is wrong with that? Nothing. Not anymore than there's anything wrong with Jesus's parables. They teach things that are true in reality, which is what matters. The way that those real things are described (via parables, symbolic references or literally) isn't what is important.

One must be able to recognize when things are clearly symbolic like the sword and Babylon, but recognize the literal like Armageddon and the resurrection.

Where does the text indicate that Babylon is symbolic? It doesn't state that anywhere explicitly. Yet, you're still able to discern that. Why are you not able to also discern that Armageddon is symbolic? Seems like doctrinal bias is the only reason.

 

[Earburner]

Luke.16[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Isaiah 55:8-9

 

[ewq1938]

Your lack of willingness to address what the text actually says is unbelievable. Let me show you once again.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

In your Bible is verse 18 cut off at the word "riders"? You limit the destruction to the "kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders", but ignore that it expands the destruction out to "all people, free and slave, great and small". Why do you ignore that?

Because of context which you ignore. All people is all of that army previously described.

How many times do I have to tell you that destruction with a SYMBOLIC sword does not describe the LITERAL method of destruction?

How many times do I have to tell you are wrong? A symbolic sword will result in the same physical damage a real sword does.

The method of destruction is not described literally in Revelation 19, but it is in Revelation 20.

No, this is horrible exegesis. Revelation 19's battle is at a different time at a different place. Revelation 19 has two armies meeting but in Revelation 20 it's one army meeting no one. Christ's sword in Revelation 19 is not God the Father's fire from heaven. You are embarrassing yourself by saying this nonsense.

I stopped reading here to spare myself from seeing this any further for fear that it might infect and harm my own thought process and ability to logically understand the scriptures.

 

[ewq1938]

Actually, what we are witnessing in Ukraine , is again another "purposeful demonstration" of the 2H Beast (US), orchestrating it's ability to make fire come down from heaven, in the sight of men and in the presence of the 10H Beast (Europe).

lol. I'd add this to my list but no one would believe an Amillennialist would say something so incredibly d***.
.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

This isn't conventional warfare but is a miracle as confirmed I the next verse:

Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Also the False Prophet is a man not a country.

 

[ewq1938]

And the first and second death...

1. the first being physical, each of us at our appointed time, our departure from this life, and experienced by all​

2. the second being spiritual, which is the result of this second, final Judgment, and is the final, permanent state of condemnation under God's judgment, experienced forever and in permanent separation from the new heaven and new earth​

​

The second death is physical and spiritual as the dead body is resurrected so a second death of the body can happen. It will be the first literal death of soul and spirit but is the second time the physical body will die. That's where the "second" of the second death comes from.

 

[ewq1938]

You are the one who is acting as if Satan's binding has something to do with him being bound from persecuting believers. If that's not what you were intending, then maybe you need to take a class on how to communicate more clearly.

Or you take a class on comprehending what others write.

Once believers are made immortal, they cannot be persecuted. Satan tries to persecute them but his army is destroyed as soon as the surround Jerusalem. They had no chance of accomplishing anything further. It's as impossible as we see in Revelation 19, a human army facing Christ and an angelic and immortal army. Satan's armies had zero chance of accomplishing anything but failure.

The only people that can be harmed in any sense by satan are the unsaved being ruled over.