The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

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Spiritual Israelite

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These are the only 2 verse you base your entire conjecture on. You complain that some posters base their whole theology on one chapter. You base your whole theology on a few verses and not even the whole chapter these verses are found in. All other Scriptures prove there is more than one single mass resurrection. You should probably stick to your own standards, instead of just accusing other posters.
This is a lie. I do not base my doctrine on just a few verses. That could not be further from the truth and I think you know it.

Revelation 20 contains two times when the dead stand in Judgment.
No, it does not. Please stop making things up. Unless you want to keep making yourself look bad. In that case, keep doing it, I guess.

This does not contradict John 5:28-29. The hour started on the Cross, and even started with Lazarus prior to the Cross. Using that interpretation, does not contradict Paul nor John. You have to explain Scripture away or twist it to fit. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul gives us 3 times humans are presented to God as redeemed by the Atonement. A resurrection at the Cross. Matthew 27. At the Second Coming. Then at the end of the 1,000 years, when all is handed back to God. That is including all Scripture with no contradictions or even "overselling" one's theology.
You stretch a coming hour/time to 1,000+ years. That is nonsense. In no way, shape or form did Jesus give the impression that He was talking about a long time period during which all of the dead wold be raised.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Wrong, it's found in Revelation 20. The fabrication is that kingdom/rule happening now.
Fabrication? Are the following verses in your Bible?

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Acts 2:32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’ 36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.

All of these talk about how Jesus reigns as King now and has been since His resurrection. It's folly to think that He can't be reigning unless everyone is obeying Him. Since when is someone not a king of his kingdom unless those he has authority over always do everything he says?
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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26. How many armies are in Revelation 19-20?

Revelation 19-20 speaks of three armies. One of that belongs to the beast which is defeated by Christ at Armageddon, then a thousand years later after satan is released from the pit he raises a new army which does not face an army of God or Christ but is destroyed by fire from God the Father in heaven. Amillennialism typically teaches there are only two armies which contradicts what we are given.

The beast's Revelation 19 army is defeated by God the Son who has an army but satan's Revelation 20 army is defeated by God the Father with no army.

The first battle happens before the thousand years and the second happens after the thousand years has ended.
Parallel sections of the book of Revelation don't contain all of the same details. This is not a contradiction, this is simply a case of not all the same details being shared in each description of the same event. You proved nothing here just like you've proven nothing with any of the previous 25 supposed contradictions.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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27. The Battle of Armageddon (in the valley of Megiddo) is the same battle found in Revelation 20:8-9? (Gog Magog at Jerusalem)

Amillennialism typically teaches these are the same battle yet they clearly are not:

In Revelation 19, a battle involving two armies is fought at Armageddon (in the valley of Megiddo) .

One army is led by the Revelation 13:1 beast and the false prophet, and the other is led by Christ at his second coming. Christ destroys the enemy army and the beast and FP are cast into the lake of fire. All this happens before Revelation 20's "a thousand years" even begins.

After the end of the "a thousand years", Revelation 20:8-9 shows an army led by satan (the beast and false prophet already having been defeated and are in the lake of fire) surrounding Jerusalem and facing no opposing army. Instead of Christ defeating this army, God the Father rains fire from heaven and destroys them. This second battle happens just outside of Jerusalem which is about 66 miles away from the valley of Megiddo.

Satan is then cast into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet already are proving they were cast into the lake of fire at an earlier time further proving the two battles are not the same battle repeated twice.

At Armageddon, a symbolic sword is used to kill.
At Jerusalem, fire from God the Father is used to kill.

Clearly two different places and two different battles and two different timeframes where an enemy army is destroyed.
Again, not all the same details are given in parallel accounts of the same event in the book of Revelation. There's nothing contradictory about that. It's ridiculous to think that parallel accounts of the same event should contain all of the same details about it.

Also, your inability to discern that a SYMBOLIC sword should not be taken literally is just unbelievable to me. Why do you interpret a SYMBOLIC sword as being used in a literal way? In Revelation 19 the destruction that occurs when Christ returns is described SYMBOLICALLY and not literally while it is described LITERALLY in Revelation 20:8-9.

How can you think you're making a valid argument when one of the two passages you're referencing doesn't even describe how the destruction occurs in a literal way and only describes it symbolically? A symbolic sword cannot literally kill people. Why can't you understand that simple concept? Since it's not a literal sword causing the destruction, we have to look elsewhere to see what literally causes it. And 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 20:9 indicate that it will literally be caused by fire.
 

Timtofly

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More often than not, you interpret literal text figuratively and figurative text literally. It's why you are wrong about almost everything.

What does this offhand remark have to do with furthering a conversation?

Did Jesus say the meek will inherit the earth (as in this earth) or a completely separate earth from this one (not even this earth renewed)?

The earth is still the earth figuratively and literally. It does not change into a totally different idea or phenomenon it is not. So whatever happens on what God defines as the creation earth, that definition will never change. Now if God changes earth and gives it a new name, definition, then certainly we will know about it. This earth, that earth, new earth, and even a totally different reality earth; it is still from God's perspective what we know as earth.

You could have saved yourself some time and admitted that there is no scripture which describes heaven and earth after the flood as a new heaven and new earth. Instead, you just rambled on without saying anything of substance without providing any scripture which called it a new heaven and new earth after the flood.

Do you not understand change? It is you that demands a literal interpretation, for if there are no literal words, you cannot even see a figurative application.
 

ewq1938

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Again, not all the same details are given in parallel accounts of the same event in the book of Revelation. There's nothing contradictory about that. It's ridiculous to think that parallel accounts of the same event should contain all of the same details about it.


That isn't the issue. It's the contradictory details that are given which tells us the battle at Armageddon and the battle at Jerusalem are different battles. None of the details match.
 

Zao is life

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Let me remind you again that you said most Bible transalators and scholars believed that text shouldn't be there in Revelation 20:5a when in reality it's just a few of them.
Keep running. I admitted that I had wrongly assumed it was the majority of scholars who considered it spurious, but Tischendorf was considered an authority in his time (unlike you).

According to the scholars who produced the Novum Testamentum Greace Nestle-Aland, it's spurious. Out of 181 Greek manuscripts, 71 of them do not contain the phrase "The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished," It doesn't exist in the Peshito either, and in some early commentaries of Revelation like Victorius from Pettau and Oecumenius, this sentence exists in a comment, but not in the cited Revelation text.

Texts that do not have that sentence are : Codex Sinaiticus (early to mid 4th c.); Codex Ephraimi (6th c.); Majority of witnesses of second order; In addition, the phrase appears in the majority of early Latin manuscripts, but not in Syriac or Coptic.

The above paragraph is cited from:
Can Revelation 20:5 "the rest of the dead..." rightfully claim to be part of the original text?

The fact of the matter is scholars (almost all scholars) are fully aware that there is some reason to question whether or not that sentence in Revelation 20:5a belongs there, and some doubt it does belong in the text.

So keep running with your false flag. It's speaks volumes about you.
 
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Timtofly

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This is a lie. I do not base my doctrine on just a few verses. That could not be further from the truth and I think you know it.

If it is a lie then quote 1 more text that states 1 general resurrection for every single human who has ever lived.


No, it does not. Please stop making things up. Unless you want to keep making yourself look bad. In that case, keep doing it, I guess.

First judgment:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:"

Second judgment:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

You stretch a coming hour/time to 1,000+ years. That is nonsense. In no way, shape or form did Jesus give the impression that He was talking about a long time period during which all of the dead wold be raised.

No I don't. I don't include the 1,000 years at all in a resurrection. John never stated a resurrection in Revelation 20:11-15

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

You already acknowledged this was outside of time and creation. They are dead, they remain dead. Since you claim the word resurrection has to appear in the text, it is your own metric you are refuting. There is no resurrection here. The dead are dumped out of reality, stand before the GWT, and cast into the LOF still dead.

Actually I stretch out the hour in the here and now just like Amil stretch out time in the here and now. You stretch out a future 1,000 years. I stretch out the fact that since the Cross, and even before at the tomb of Lazarus, Jesus proved He is the Resurrection and the Life. Surely being the Resurrection and the Life is not nonsense to you?

Also, your inability to discern that a SYMBOLIC sword should not be taken literally is just unbelievable to me. Why do you interpret a SYMBOLIC sword as being used in a literal way? In Revelation 19 the destruction that occurs when Christ returns is described SYMBOLICALLY and not literally while it is described LITERALLY in Revelation 20:8-9.
There is no Second Coming mentioned at all in Revelation 20. You are literally making that up, based on human conjecture. When Elijah called down fire from heaven, you call that a literal Second Coming? Fire from heaven is fire from heaven. It literally consumed humans and even objects. It is not a figurative nor literal Second Coming. It is a literal fire.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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What does this offhand remark have to do with furthering a conversation?
It has to do with how you should take a step back and try to figure out why you interpret figurative things literally and literal things figuratively.

Do you not understand change? It is you that demands a literal interpretation, for if there are no literal words, you cannot even see a figurative application.
Where again did you say it describes heaven and earth as a new heaven and new earth after the flood? I must have missed that. That's what I was talking about and this is all you respond with (no scripture backing up your claim).
 

Spiritual Israelite

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That isn't the issue. It's the contradictory details that are given which tells us the battle at Armageddon and the battle at Jerusalem are different battles. None of the details match.
No, there are no contradictions. There are just false interpretations and assumptions by you. Both passages refer to the destruction of all unbelievers after they oppose Christ and His church. Are all unbelievers in the world going to be destroyed two different times in the future? I see no reason why that would be the case. Christ will destroy all of His enemies at His return. Why would He wait until a much later time to do that?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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If it is a lie then quote 1 more text that states 1 general resurrection for every single human who has ever lived.
I was talking about my Amil belief in general. I certainly use far more than just a few verses to back up my belief. And LOL at the idea that you can only support your doctrine with verses that explicitly state things. Things can be implicitly stated as well.

Anyway, you asked for 1 more text which talks about 1 general resurrection for everyone. Here you go:

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Paul wrote about one resurrection event that will include "the just and unjust". Just like Jesus talked about.

First judgment:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:"
That is referring to authority being given to believers. No actual judgment is happening there in terms of anyone giving an account of themselves and eternal destinies being determined. Who is judging and what are they judging exactly? Where is this judgment referenced elsewhere in scripture?

No I don't. I don't include the 1,000 years at all in a resurrection. John never stated a resurrection in Revelation 20:11-15
Then why do you interpret John 5:28-29 the way you do? Do you believe there is one time coming at which time all of the dead will be resurrected as Jesus said in John 5:28-29 or not?

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

You already acknowledged this was outside of time and creation. They are dead, they remain dead. Since you claim the word resurrection has to appear in the text, it is your own metric you are refuting. There is no resurrection here. The dead are dumped out of reality, stand before the GWT, and cast into the LOF still dead.
I'm not the one who needs everything spelled out to me in order to discern what a passage is about. John 5:28-29 makes it clear that unbelievers will be resurrected first before being judged, so that has to be taken into account when interpreting a passage like Revelation 20:11-15. Just because that passage doesn't specifically refer to their resurrection, doesn't mean they are not resurrected at that time. We know in Revelation 20:5 that it talks about the rest of the dead being resurrected after the thousand years, so when else would they be resurrected after the thousand years are over than at the GWTJ?

Actually I stretch out the hour in the here and now just like Amil stretch out time in the here and now. You stretch out a future 1,000 years. I stretch out the fact that since the Cross, and even before at the tomb of Lazarus, Jesus proved He is the Resurrection and the Life. Surely being the Resurrection and the Life is not nonsense to you?
I don't try to claim that a coming hour is an ongoing long period of time. When Jesus talked about something like that, He said "the house is coming, AND NOW IS" like He did in John 5:24-25, but He didn't say that in John 5:28-29.

There is no Second Coming mentioned at all in Revelation 20. You are literally making that up, based on human conjecture. When Elijah called down fire from heaven, you call that a literal Second Coming? Fire from heaven is fire from heaven. It literally consumed humans and even objects. It is not a figurative nor literal Second Coming. It is a literal fire.
You clearly don't grasp the concept of interpreting scripture with scripture. If things are completely spelled out to you then you are unable to discern what any given verse or passage is about. Revelation 20:9 is referring to the same event as 2 Peter 3:10-12 which will occur at the second coming of Christ. We know that because in 2 Peter 3:13 Peter indicates that we are looking forward to new heavens and a new earth according to the promise of His second coming as a result of what is described in Peter 3:10-12.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Keep running. I admitted that I had wrongly assumed it was the majority of scholars who considered it spurious, but Tischendorf was considered an authority in his time (unlike you).
Maybe you should just slow things down a bit so that you aren't in a rush to try to refute Amil. It only results in you making yourself look bad by making false claims without doing enough research first.

According to the scholars who produced the Novum Testamentum Greace Nestle-Aland, it's spurious. Out of 181 Greek manuscripts, 71 of them do not contain the phrase "The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished," It doesn't exist in the Peshito either, and in some early commentaries of Revelation like Victorius from Pettau and Oecumenius, this sentence exists in a comment, but not in the cited Revelation text.

Texts that do not have that sentence are : Codex Sinaiticus (early to mid 4th c.); Codex Ephraimi (6th c.); Majority of witnesses of second order; In addition, the phrase appears in the majority of early Latin manuscripts, but not in Syriac or Coptic.

The above paragraph is cited from:
Can Revelation 20:5 "the rest of the dead..." rightfully claim to be part of the original text?

The fact of the matter is scholars (almost all scholars) are fully aware that there is some reason to question whether or not that sentence in Revelation 20:5a belongs there, and some doubt it does belong in the text.

So keep running with your false flag. It's speaks volumes about you.
I hope it does speak volumes about me that I don't have to resort to things like this to keep my doctrine afloat.
 

Zao is life

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Maybe you should just slow things down a bit so that you aren't in a rush to try to refute Amil. It only results in you making yourself look bad by making false claims without doing enough research first.

I hope it does speak volumes about me that I don't have to resort to things like this to keep my doctrine afloat.
2 Peter 1:5-11 is far more important to us than 2 Peter 3:10-12. So is 1 Corinthians 13:2.
 

ewq1938

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No, there are no contradictions. There are just false interpretations and assumptions by you. Both passages refer to the destruction of all unbelievers after they oppose Christ and His church. Are all unbelievers in the world going to be destroyed two different times in the future?


No, that only happens once, at the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ). In Revelation 19, Jesus only destroys an army and it's leaders not a global slaughter. The area of Armageddon is not large enough to fit a 10th of the world's population either so those who claim all people are there are also wrong.
 

Earburner

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So if you can tell me how the resurrected body will be tangible but not the NHNE, and if you can tell me exactly who those outside of New Jerusalem are that are spoken about in Revelation 21:26 and Revelation 22:15, and who the kings are who bring their honor into New Jerusalem, then you can convince me that you have sufficient knowledge and understanding for me to pay attention to what you're arguing against.
I can answer with one word: Jesus.
Jesus, who is now seated at the right hand of the Father. But, as we all know, He Ascended into Heaven physically, but can be Spirit at will.
So, while Jesus is now seated at God's right hand, is He Spirit, or is He physical? The answer I am sure is "Spirit".

As for the kings of this world, who are orchestrated and influenced by the prince of this world, there is no glory of mere men of flesh and blood that is honorable to the Father.
Nor will they ever be accepted by Him, unless they are Born again by His Holy Spirit, while they still have breath, during His present Age of Grace, ever since Pentecost.
 

ewq1938

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28. Was satan bound and imprisoned at the cross or when Christ resurrected?

Not according to Revelation 12. Amillennialism teaches satan was bound at the cross or when Christ resurrected yet we read in Revelation 12 that after the ascension, satan is cast out of heaven with his angels and then we read, "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

There is no binding or imprisoning at all! In Revelation 12 he proceeds to "persecute the woman which brought forth the man child" and after that he continues his rampage, "went to make war with the remnant of her seed". The context of Revelation 12-13 shows that satan is more powerful and has been given more authority to persecute and kill members of the Church! That is the OPPOSITE of being bound.

Furthermore, Christ certainly didn't say the binding and imprisonment in the pit was going to happen anywhere near the cross or Ascension. What he did say about when he would be gone is that the ruler of the world, satan, would be coming. That is the opposite of what happens in the Millennium.

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the ruler of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
 
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Earburner

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28. Was satan bound and imprisoned at the cross or when Christ resurrected?

Not according to Revelation 12. Amillennialism teaches satan was bound at the cross or when Christ resurrected yet we read in Revelation 12 that after the ascension, satan is cast out of heaven with his angels and then we read, "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

There is no binding or imprisoning at all! In Revelation 12 he proceeds to "persecute the woman which brought forth the man child" and after that he continues his rampage, "went to make war with the remnant of her seed". The context of Revelation 12-13 shows that satan is more powerful and has been given more authority to persecute and kill members of the Church! That is the OPPOSITE of being bound.

Furthermore, Christ certainly didn't say the binding and imprisonment in the pit was going to happen anywhere near the cross or Ascension. What he did say about when he would be gone is that the ruler of the world, satan, would be coming. That is the opposite of what happens in the Millennium.

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the ruler of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Surely you don't believe that satan has been in Heaven for the past 2000+ years. Such a belief is ludicrous and beyond the simple truth of Christ's teaching in the Gospels and Epistles.
John.12[31] Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

You have not understood yet that the Mind of God thinks and speaks in the past, the present and the future all at the same time.
The book of Revelation needs to be read and interpreted by the Mind (Spirit) of Christ, not by the scholarly wisdom of men and their doctrines.

Isa.55[8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

1Cor.2[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but [rather] in the power of God.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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2 Peter 1:5-11 is far more important to us than 2 Peter 3:10-12. So is 1 Corinthians 13:2.
Of course. But, it's all very important as far as I'm concerned. The way people view eschatology can and often does affect the way they live their lives. Especially when it comes to how people view modern day Israel, but in other ways as well.

In fact, 2 Peter 3:10-12 should be having an effect on how we live our lives. If we properly understand that it at least potentially relates to a literal, physical global destruction event that could happen in our lifetimes (instead of it being figurative or it being literal but not happening until 1,000+ years later) then it should lead us "to live holy and godly lives".

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

We don't want to be among those who are killed by the fire that will come down upon the earth on the day Christ returns, which will result in "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "will not escape" (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3). So, that should motivate us to make an effort "to live holy and godly" lives while we look forward to that day.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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No, that only happens once, at the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ).
I was talking in terms of those who are alive on earth being physically destroyed. That is portrayed in both Revelation 19:17-18 and Revelation 20:9. Is it going to happen twice or are those speaking of the same event? It's clear to me that they are the same event and history is not going to basically repeat itself 1,000+ years after Christ returns.

In Revelation 19, Jesus only destroys an army and it's leaders not a global slaughter.
You're not reading the text carefully enough. I have pointed this out to you before, but you stubbornly just dismiss it without excepting what this says.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

ewq1938 says: "In Revelation 19, Jesus only destroys an army and it's leaders not a global slaughter".

Revelation 19 itself says: Jesus will destroy not only "the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders", but "the flesh of ALL PEOPLE, free and slave, great and small".

The area of Armageddon is not large enough to fit a 10th of the world's population either so those who claim all people are there are also wrong.
You're not recognizing that, in Revelation, Armageddon is a figurative reference and not a literal, physical place where people will literally gather together to battle. It's not any more literal than mystery Babylon, for example. Or any more literal than the sword coming out of Christ's mouth. When Revelation refers to Babylon it's not talking about the literal, physical Babylon we know about from the Old Testament, but rather about a figurative or spiritual Babylon. The same is true for Armageddon.
 
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