The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

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WPM

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33. Who binds and imprisons satan in the pit?


Amillennialism sometimes teaches that Christ binds and imprisons Satan in the pit but is that accurate?


Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Revelation 12 proves satan is upon the Earth and cannot return to heaven so his binding is here upon the Earth where the pit is said to be located. The pit is a spiritual place not a geographic place but is said to be in the vicinity of the Earth because to get to the pit an angel must leave heaven and come to the Earth.


Christ could not be the one to bind Satan because Christ would have to leave heaven to accomplish that which would have been a second coming. Since we know he only returns one final time since leaving we know it was indeed an actual angel which bound satan. Anyone that believes Christ bound Satan accidentally believes in a second and a third coming because that's the only way Christ could have bound satan himself.

This is talking about His First Advent.
 

ewq1938

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34. What does "beheading" mean in Revelation 20?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Some Amillennialist's actually reinterpret this to mean being beheaded is Jesus killing off their own sinful selves and causing a re-birth or being "born again" through a symbolic beheading.

The truth is the people beheaded in Revelation 20 are the victims of murder! The beast slays them because they had the testimony of Jesus and refused the mark of the beast. They were born again Christians before they were horribly murdered. Here Amillennialism wrongly and disturbingly changes a horrific murder of Christians during the great tribulation into the wonderful and glorious time when a person is born again. Truly disturbing!
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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34. What does "beheading" mean in Revelation 20?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Some Amillennialist's actually reinterpret this to mean being beheaded is Jesus killing off their own sinful selves and causing a re-birth or being "born again" through a symbolic beheading.

The truth is the people beheaded in Revelation 20 are the victims of murder! The beast slays them because they had the testimony of Jesus and refused the mark of the beast. They were born again Christians before they were horribly murdered. Here Amillennialism wrongly and disturbingly changes a horrific murder of Christians during the great tribulation into the wonderful and glorious time when a person is born again. Truly disturbing!
How many Amils even believe this? Likely only a few. No one here does that I know of. Is it really worth your time to refute what only a few people even believe? I don't believe so.

Are you trying to make all Amils look bad just because a few Amils believe things like this? That would be like making an argument against Premil by arguing against things that mid-tribs believe even though most Premils are not mid-tribs and are pre-tribs or post-tribs instead.
 
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Timtofly

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How many Amils even believe this? Likely only a few. No one here does that I know of. Is it really worth your time to refute what only a few people even believe? I don't believe so.

Are you trying to make all Amils look bad just because a few Amils believe things like this? That would be like making an argument against Premil by arguing against things that mid-tribs believe even though most Premils are not mid-tribs and are pre-tribs or post-tribs instead.
All Amils avoid the point. Who actually claims beheaded OT saints are resurrected to live on earth for the last 1992 years. What is a resurrection to begin with?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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All Amils avoid the point. Who actually claims beheaded OT saints are resurrected to live on earth for the last 1992 years. What is a resurrection to begin with?
Are you unable to follow a discussion? I was talking about post #922 specifically and I'm saying that most Amils do not deny that it's talking about believers who have been physically martyred. That's the only point I was making there, so there's no need to bring up anything else.
 

Timtofly

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Are you unable to follow a discussion? I was talking about post #922 specifically and I'm saying that most Amils do not deny that it's talking about believers who have been physically martyred. That's the only point I was making there, so there's no need to bring up anything else.
Yes, the point was about those beheaded in The 42 months leading up to Armageddon.

You deny and avoid the time frame involved. How many OT saints were martyred in the days leading up to the first advent? Were they resurrected when Jesus was born, baptized, during His earthly ministry, etc.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Yes, the point was about those beheaded in The 42 months leading up to Armageddon.
That point was not made in post #922. The point made there is that some Amils (very few) believe that it's not talking about physical martyrdom in Revelation 20:4, which I and most Amils disagree with. Please learn how to read.
 

ewq1938

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How many Amils even believe this?


When someone posts something unbiblical and it's not already on my list I add it. Some are beliefs held by most, some held by less. That has already been addressed in this thread multiple times.
 

Timtofly

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That point was not made in post #922. The point made there is that some Amils (very few) believe that it's not talking about physical martyrdom in Revelation 20:4, which I and most Amils disagree with. Please learn how to read.
I pointed out, when in the OT prior to the first advent all this martyrdom took place, and the resurrection was prior to the first advent where they have been resurrected for the last 1992 years. Certainly, according to Amil they were not martyred during the indefinite Millennium reign of Christ. They were martyred and resurrected prior to this reign.

Are you saying they were spiritually beheaded? No. The when is just as relative as the how. It was physical during Satan's 42 months.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I pointed out, when in the OT prior to the first advent all this martyrdom took place, and the resurrection was prior to the first advent where they have been resurrected for the last 1992 years. Certainly, according to Amil they were not martyred during the indefinite Millennium reign of Christ. They were martyred and resurrected prior to this reign.

Are you saying they were spiritually beheaded? No. The when is just as relative as the how. It was physical during Satan's 42 months.
I don't know what you're talking about. You're impossible to follow.
 

Phoneman777

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(Each of these issues have been presented in threads in various forums by people who believe in Amillennialism. These may or may not be held by every individual of that doctrine.)

Each person who believes in Amillennialism is a good person with good intent regarding scriptural interpretation but Premillennialism very much disagrees with their doctrine, their way of interpretation, and their exegesis of various scriptures. In this list you will see the many problems contained within Amillennialism.


1. Time no longer?

Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

The "time will stop existing" theory is based on misunderstanding some translations archaic wording. Here "time no longer" simply means there will no longer be a delay before certain events begin to occur not that time somehow actually stops.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Scripture never claims that time ends, in fact the eternity is never ending time with a new fruit on the tree of life every month (30 days of time).

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

World here is AION which is an age or period of time. Usually it speaks of an everlasting period of time. Here the verse not only uses AION but adds "without end" to make clear that time never ends.

Barnes:

“time shall be no longer” - means properly, according to Robinson (Lexicon), “yet, still”; implying:
(1) Duration - as spoken of the present time; of the present in allusion to the past, and, with a negative, no more, no longer;
(2) Implying accession, addition, yet, more, further, besides. According to Buttmann, Grammatical section 149, vol. i. p. 430, it means, when alone, “yet still, yet further; and with a negative, no more, no further.” The particle occurs often in the New Testament, as may be seen in the Concordance. It is more frequently rendered “yet” than by any other word (compare Mat_12:46; Mat_17:5; Mat_19:20; Mat_26:47; Mat_27:63; Mar_5:35; Mar_8:17; Mar_12:6; Mar_14:43 - and so in the other Gospels, the Acts , and the Epistles); in all, 50 times. In the Book of Revelation it is only once rendered “yet,” Revelation_6:11, but is rendered “more” in Revelation_3:12; Revelation_7:16; Revelation_9:12; Revelation_12:8; Revelation_18:21-22 (three times), Revelation_18:23 (twice); Revelation_20:3; Revelation_21:1, Revelation_21:4 (twice); “longer” in Revelation_10:6; “still” in Revelation_22:11 (four times). The usage, therefore, will justify the rendering of the word by “yet,” and in connection with the negative, “not yet” - meaning that the thing referred to would not occur immediately, but would be hereafter. In regard to the general meaning, then, of this passage in its connection, we may remark:
(a) That it cannot mean, literally, that there would be time no longer, or that the world would then come to an end absolutely, for the speaker proceeds to disclose events that would occur after that, extending far into time future Revelation_10:11, and the detail that follows Revelation. 11 before the sounding of the seventh trumpet is such as to occupy a considerable period, and the seventh trumpet is also yet to sound. No fair construction of the language, therefore, would require us to understand this as meaning that the affairs of the world were then to terminate.

Clarke:

That there should be time no longer - That the great counsels relative to the events already predicted should be immediately fulfilled, and that there should be no longer delay.

E.W. Bullinger:

Literally that time shall be no longer. i.e. no more delay in executing final vengeance. See Revelation_6:10, Revelation_6:11.



Other translations:


(ASV) and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created the heaven and the things that are therein, and the earth and the things that are therein, and the sea and the things that are therein, that there shall be delay no longer:

(BBE) And took his oath by him who is living for ever and ever, who made the heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there would be no more waiting:

(CEV) He made a promise in the name of God who lives forever and who created heaven, earth, the sea, and every living creature. The angel said, "You won't have to wait any longer.

(Darby) and swore by him that lives to the ages of ages, who created the heaven and the things that are in it, and the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be no longer delay;

(EMTV) and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it, the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there should be no more delay;

(ERV) The angel made a promise by the power of the one who lives forever and ever. He is the one who made the skies and all that is in them. He made the earth and all that is in it, and he made the sea and all that is in it. The angel said, "There will be no more waiting!

(ESV) and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay,

(GNB) and took a vow in the name of God, who lives forever and ever, who created heaven, earth, and the sea, and everything in them. The angel said, "There will be no more delay!

(GW) He swore an oath by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it. He said, "There will be no more delay.

(ISV) He swore an oath by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: "There will be no more delay.

(LEB) and swore by the one who lives [forever and ever], who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, "There will be no more delay!

(TLV) and swore by the One who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay.

(TPT) and swore an oath by him who lives for an eternity of eternities, the Creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them: No more delay!

(WEB) and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there will no longer be delay,

(WEBA) and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there will no longer be delay,

(Williams) and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heavens and all that they contain, the earth and all that it contains, and the sea and all that it contains, that there should be no more delay,
Interesting
 
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Phoneman777

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(Each of these issues have been presented in threads in various forums by people who believe in Amillennialism. These may or may not be held by every individual of that doctrine.)

Each person who believes in Amillennialism is a good person with good intent regarding scriptural interpretation but Premillennialism very much disagrees with their doctrine, their way of interpretation, and their exegesis of various scriptures. In this list you will see the many problems contained within Amillennialism.


1. Time no longer?

Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

The "time will stop existing" theory is based on misunderstanding some translations archaic wording. Here "time no longer" simply means there will no longer be a delay before certain events begin to occur not that time somehow actually stops.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Scripture never claims that time ends, in fact the eternity is never ending time with a new fruit on the tree of life every month (30 days of time).

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

World here is AION which is an age or period of time. Usually it speaks of an everlasting period of time. Here the verse not only uses AION but adds "without end" to make clear that time never ends.

Barnes:

“time shall be no longer” - means properly, according to Robinson (Lexicon), “yet, still”; implying:
(1) Duration - as spoken of the present time; of the present in allusion to the past, and, with a negative, no more, no longer;
(2) Implying accession, addition, yet, more, further, besides. According to Buttmann, Grammatical section 149, vol. i. p. 430, it means, when alone, “yet still, yet further; and with a negative, no more, no further.” The particle occurs often in the New Testament, as may be seen in the Concordance. It is more frequently rendered “yet” than by any other word (compare Mat_12:46; Mat_17:5; Mat_19:20; Mat_26:47; Mat_27:63; Mar_5:35; Mar_8:17; Mar_12:6; Mar_14:43 - and so in the other Gospels, the Acts , and the Epistles); in all, 50 times. In the Book of Revelation it is only once rendered “yet,” Revelation_6:11, but is rendered “more” in Revelation_3:12; Revelation_7:16; Revelation_9:12; Revelation_12:8; Revelation_18:21-22 (three times), Revelation_18:23 (twice); Revelation_20:3; Revelation_21:1, Revelation_21:4 (twice); “longer” in Revelation_10:6; “still” in Revelation_22:11 (four times). The usage, therefore, will justify the rendering of the word by “yet,” and in connection with the negative, “not yet” - meaning that the thing referred to would not occur immediately, but would be hereafter. In regard to the general meaning, then, of this passage in its connection, we may remark:
(a) That it cannot mean, literally, that there would be time no longer, or that the world would then come to an end absolutely, for the speaker proceeds to disclose events that would occur after that, extending far into time future Revelation_10:11, and the detail that follows Revelation. 11 before the sounding of the seventh trumpet is such as to occupy a considerable period, and the seventh trumpet is also yet to sound. No fair construction of the language, therefore, would require us to understand this as meaning that the affairs of the world were then to terminate.

Clarke:

That there should be time no longer - That the great counsels relative to the events already predicted should be immediately fulfilled, and that there should be no longer delay.

E.W. Bullinger:

Literally that time shall be no longer. i.e. no more delay in executing final vengeance. See Revelation_6:10, Revelation_6:11.



Other translations:


(ASV) and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created the heaven and the things that are therein, and the earth and the things that are therein, and the sea and the things that are therein, that there shall be delay no longer:

(BBE) And took his oath by him who is living for ever and ever, who made the heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there would be no more waiting:

(CEV) He made a promise in the name of God who lives forever and who created heaven, earth, the sea, and every living creature. The angel said, "You won't have to wait any longer.

(Darby) and swore by him that lives to the ages of ages, who created the heaven and the things that are in it, and the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be no longer delay;

(EMTV) and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it, the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there should be no more delay;

(ERV) The angel made a promise by the power of the one who lives forever and ever. He is the one who made the skies and all that is in them. He made the earth and all that is in it, and he made the sea and all that is in it. The angel said, "There will be no more waiting!

(ESV) and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay,

(GNB) and took a vow in the name of God, who lives forever and ever, who created heaven, earth, and the sea, and everything in them. The angel said, "There will be no more delay!

(GW) He swore an oath by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it. He said, "There will be no more delay.

(ISV) He swore an oath by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: "There will be no more delay.

(LEB) and swore by the one who lives [forever and ever], who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, "There will be no more delay!

(TLV) and swore by the One who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay.

(TPT) and swore an oath by him who lives for an eternity of eternities, the Creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them: No more delay!

(WEB) and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there will no longer be delay,

(WEBA) and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there will no longer be delay,

(Williams) and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heavens and all that they contain, the earth and all that it contains, and the sea and all that it contains, that there should be no more delay,
"Time no longer" means "prophetic time no longer". Of course "time" will remain for eternity because each weekly Sabbath in heaven and each monthly bloom of the Tree of Life will mark time!
 

ewq1938

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"Time no longer" means "prophetic time no longer".

Not exactly. Prophecies of the eternity exist in the bible so "prophetic time" never ends either. As explained, "time no longer" simply means no more delay before certain events would take place.

Of course "time" will remain for eternity because each weekly Sabbath in heaven and each monthly bloom of the Tree of Life will mark time!


There is no "weekly Sabbath" in the eternity but you are correct about a monthly event related to the tree of life, which is written to be a new fruit.
 

ewq1938

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35. Revelation 19:15: Does the RULE over the nations take place during the events of Armageddon?

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth(PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Amillennialism teaches the smiting and the treading of the winepress happens at the same time this ruling occurs. While the verb tenses for the smiting and treading are present tense/present tense meaning, the verb for RULE is in the future tense proving that there is a rule over the nations after the second coming and after the killing at Armageddon is completed.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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35. Revelation 19:15: Does the RULE over the nations take place during the events of Armageddon?

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth(PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Amillennialism teaches the smiting and the treading of the winepress happens at the same time this ruling occurs. While the verb tenses for the smiting and treading are present tense/present tense meaning, the verb for RULE is in the future tense proving that there is a rule over the nations after the second coming and after the killing at Armageddon is completed.
What you don't get is that the same ones it says He will smite and tread in "the winepress or the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" are the ones He will rule (Psalm 2:9 says "break") with a rod of iron. How exactly can He rule over people that He just destroyed? That makes no sense. It makes sense that He will "break" them as it says in Psalms 2:9. It clearly portrays Him as destroying His enemies at His return, just like other scripture like Matt 24:37-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:3-13. He has no interest in ruling over His enemies the way you think He will. He is coming to take vengeance on them.
 

ewq1938

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What you don't get is that the same ones it says He will smite and tread in "the winepress or the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" are the ones He will rule (Psalm 2:9 says "break") with a rod of iron. How exactly can He rule over people that He just destroyed? That makes no sense. It makes sense that He will "break" them as it says in Psalms 2:9. It clearly portrays Him as destroying His enemies at His return, just like other scripture like Matt 24:37-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:3-13. He has no interest in ruling over His enemies the way you think He will. He is coming to take vengeance on them.

No, the ones he kills are not the same ones he rules over. Revelation 19 is clear that the ruling is FUTURE TENSE to the smiting and killing at Armageddon. Ignoring the verb tense is causing errors.
 

Earburner

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Time existed before the universe did.
By which sun (star), and in which solar system?
Even in our own solar system, none of the planets have the same time of rotation or revolution to our sun. Time is only relative to a sun and it's solar system of each of it's planets.
Outside of a solar system, time does not exist in infinity.
 

ewq1938

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36. Revelation 19:15: Is the RULE over the nations a violent rule ending in death?

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Amillennialism teaches to RULE with the rod of iron means to violently kill the people of the nations yet that is not what the word RULE means:

G4165
poimaino
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.


To tend as a shepherd is to take care of them! A supervisor watches over his employees, not kill them! A shepherd controls and protects his flock and that is the type of rule that shall be rather NOT the slaughter of the wicked. It is clear error to mix the concept of ruling and shepherding with killing.

The smiting of the nations means their governments and militaries will be destroyed but the civilians will remain alive to be ruled by shepherds.

False doctrines often re-define what a word means so it has a different and opposite meaning, changing the meaning of an entire passage. This is a red flag to be aware of.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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36. Revelation 19:15: Is the RULE over the nations a violent rule ending in death?

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Amillennialism teaches to RULE with the rod of iron means to violently kill the people of the nations yet that is not what the word RULE means:

G4165
poimaino
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.


To tend as a shepherd is to take care of them! A supervisor watches over his employees, not kill them! A shepherd controls and protects his flock and that is the type of rule that shall be rather NOT the slaughter of the wicked. It is clear error to mix the concept of ruling and shepherding with killing.

The smiting of the nations means their governments and militaries will be destroyed but the civilians will remain alive to be ruled by shepherds.

False doctrines often re-define what a word means so it has a different and opposite meaning, changing the meaning of an entire passage. This is a red flag to be aware of.
Why would you not refer to the Old Testament prophecy that is being referenced there to see what it means?

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Does this look like a description of tending to them like a shepherd? Hardly. This is a description of destruction which fits with the context of Revelation 19:15. The definition of pomaino you gave is in relation to ruling over people or feeding cattle, but ruling with a rod of iron obviously means something different than that, which you can easily see by simply looking at the prophecy in Psalm 2:7-9 that it's based on, which you failed to do.

All of these supposed errors and contradictions in Amil that you're posting are weak arguments that are easily refuted. You have provided 36 arguments so far, none of which are convincing, at least as far as the ones against things that most Amils believe are concerned. I agree with the arguments made against the things that just a few Amils believe.
 

ewq1938

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Let the reader notice that the poster is trying to shift focus away from Revelation 19:15 (a diversionary tactic) and does not comment on the Greek meaning of poimaino. The issue here is how Amillennialism wrongly interprets the RULE in Revelation 19 and how it ignores the true meaning of the word. Rule/poimaino is not violent.