The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[Timtofly]

If it was Jerusalem wouldn’t the bible say so? The city God loves now the the true Jerusalem the church.

You all don't take 1,000 literal. Why would you take Jerusalem as literal? The camp of the saints is the symbolic term along with the beloved city, for Jerusalem.

The church is not even on the earth between the 6th Seal and New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. The camp of the saints is the camp of the 144k. After chapter 7, the 144k are mentioned using the term saints. They are those in Revelation 12:17. Then Revelation 13:7. And they leave earth until they return in Revelation 19:14. Then they are on the earth for 1,000 years as the camp of the saints. They are called out as disciples, and the last two uses are as military terms. The first two uses were as disciples. At the 7th Trumpet when Satan is allowed 42 months, they retreat to heavenly mount zion, until after the 42 months, when they return to Armageddon, with Christ.

 

[Timtofly]

That is not what Jesus said.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

This current creation is fallen and death ridden...not what God created from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

The goats do not even continue in this current creation as this current creation passes away before the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Rev 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I would like to point out that this earth has been prepared and around since this earth was created.

Are you saying God cannot create a new creation at any second, but has another creation waiting in the wings? Your point would mean nothing is created as the new heavens and earth then. Both creations were created at the same time. The other one has just been sitting empty while this one is being used.

The natural interpretation is that this earth is what was created at the beginning of this earth.

So this earth was created for their inheritance, but sin has corrupted this earth for almost 6,000 years. At the Second Coming this earth will be renovated, and sin will be eradicated. That is the 1,000 years of their inheritance in Revelation 20.

 

[jeffweeder]

I would like to point out that this earth has been prepared and around since this earth was created.

Are you saying God cannot create a new creation at any second, but has another creation waiting in the wings? Your point would mean nothing is created as the new heavens and earth then. Both creations were created at the same time. The other one has just been sitting empty while this one is being used.

The natural interpretation is that this earth is what was created at the beginning of this earth.

So this earth was created for their inheritance, but sin has corrupted this earth for almost 6,000 years. At the Second Coming this earth will be renovated, and sin will be eradicated. That is the 1,000 years of their inheritance in Revelation 20.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be discovered.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which there are some things that are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unscrupulous people and lose your own firm commitment, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

 

[jeffweeder]

Also Tim

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give water to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life, without cost. 7 The one who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

This what we inherit from the foundation of the world ....at his coming.

 

[Timtofly]

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be discovered.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which there are some things that are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unscrupulous people and lose your own firm commitment, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

So do you also believe the wicked are destroyed as in total annihilation, or simply destroyed in the LOF, to constantly be tormented?

Your verses do not declare total annihilation. Your translation says earth will be discovered. Some say laid bare. This is indication that all of man's works will be removed to show God's original creation.

This is not the point of heaven and earth passing away, just like souls destroyed in sheol since the Flood are not annihilated.

The last 1,000 years will be the earth created after the above destruction. Then after Jesus hands back creation will it be returned to God and no longer exist.

There is a huge difference between fire destroying the earth, and God absorbing current reality back into His being, as it no longer would be in existence. A burned up earth still exist. The heavens will dissolve. That is because all the stars come to earth as angels. Without God creation would not exist. Reality would cease to exist. That will be what happens when Christ hands back the kingdom. But fire is not involved in that exchange.

Amil conflate several different events into their own science fiction singularity. A point in time found no where in Scripture. Only in human imagination.

Also Tim

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give water to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life, without cost. 7 The one who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

This what we inherit from the foundation of the world ....at his coming.

What the sheep inherit is the earth. The church inherits the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is a 1200 square mile city. Yes 1200 miles into the sky above the the new earth. 1200 miles wide and 1200 miles in length. Not a figurative nor symbolic 1200 miles. Not each physical human. Certainly that is not describing earthly Jerusalem, nor the one in the Millennium to come.

 

[Marty fox]

You all don't take 1,000 literal. Why would you take Jerusalem as literal? The camp of the saints is the symbolic term along with the beloved city, for Jerusalem.

The church is not even on the earth between the 6th Seal and New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. The camp of the saints is the camp of the 144k. After chapter 7, the 144k are mentioned using the term saints. They are those in Revelation 12:17. Then Revelation 13:7. And they leave earth until they return in Revelation 19:14. Then they are on the earth for 1,000 years as the camp of the saints. They are called out as disciples, and the last two uses are as military terms. The first two uses were as disciples. At the 7th Trumpet when Satan is allowed 42 months, they retreat to heavenly mount zion, until after the 42 months, when they return to Armageddon, with Christ.

I didn’t take Jerusalem literally that was my point.

let’s see what happens at the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11:15-18
The Seventh Trumpet
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

In verse 18 we see that it is the time of judging the dead and rewarding the saints. The 7th trumpet is at the end of the world and at the judgement day which is after the thousand years and satan casting into the lake of fire as shown in revelation chapter 20.

Where do you see satan is giving 42 months to do anything?

 

[ewq1938]

In verse 18 we see that it is the time of judging the dead and rewarding the saints. The 7th trumpet is at the end of the world and at the judgement day which is after the thousand years and satan casting into the lake of fire as shown in revelation chapter 20.

The 7th trumpet sounds before the thousand years start. It is when the dead and living saints are judged and rewarded. The unsaved living will face wrath and after that those alive will be ruled with a rod of iron which is part of the reward given at the 7th trump.

 

[jeffweeder]

So do you also believe the wicked are destroyed as in total annihilation, or simply destroyed in the LOF, to constantly be tormented?

Your verses do not declare total annihilation. Your translation says earth will be discovered. Some say laid bare. This is indication that all of man's works will be removed to show God's original creation.

This is not the point of heaven and earth passing away, just like souls destroyed in sheol since the Flood are not annihilated.

The last 1,000 years will be the earth created after the above destruction. Then after Jesus hands back creation will it be returned to God and no longer exist.

There is a huge difference between fire destroying the earth, and God absorbing current reality back into His being, as it no longer would be in existence. A burned up earth still exist. The heavens will dissolve. That is because all the stars come to earth as angels. Without God creation would not exist. Reality would cease to exist. That will be what happens when Christ hands back the kingdom. But fire is not involved in that exchange.

Amil conflate several different events into their own science fiction singularity. A point in time found no where in Scripture. Only in human imagination.



What the sheep inherit is the earth. The church inherits the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is a 1200 square mile city. Yes 1200 miles into the sky above the the new earth. 1200 miles wide and 1200 miles in length. Not a figurative nor symbolic 1200 miles. Not each physical human. Certainly that is not describing earthly Jerusalem, nor the one in the Millennium to come.

You have no clue what I or those scriptures are saying in unison . Goodbye Tim.

 

[Timtofly]

I didn’t take Jerusalem literally that was my point.

let’s see what happens at the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11:15-18
The Seventh Trumpet
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

In verse 18 we see that it is the time of judging the dead and rewarding the saints. The 7th trumpet is at the end of the world and at the judgement day which is after the thousand years and satan casting into the lake of fire as shown in revelation chapter 20.

Where do you see satan is giving 42 months to do anything?

A few verses later:

"and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

My point was even if John had put the literal word Jerusalem in Revelation 20:9, you still would not accept it as literal Jerusalem.

You don't even accept that the symbolic phrase used "beloved city" is referring to current Jerusalem.

 

[Timtofly]

You have no clue what I or those scriptures are saying in unison . Goodbye Tim.

I understand what those Scriptures say.

I am glad you think I have no part in this human imagined singularity you all keep going on and on about.

 

[jeffweeder]

I understand what those Scriptures say.

.

You clearly do not as you dont believe they all speak of final judgment.

add these to the list...,

Jesus told us exactly what happens when he comes.

The sheep inherit what was prepared from the foundation of the world , while the goats are thrown into the everlasting fire.
This is a post millennium event that occurs at his coming with all his Angels in great power and glory of the Father himself'



Jude

　14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”



Matt 16
Jesus said...,
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.


2Thess 1

This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.



Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;


sorry but I am done talking to you.

 

[Marty fox]

A few verses later:

"and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

My point was even if John had put the literal word Jerusalem in Revelation 20:9, you still would not accept it as literal Jerusalem.

You don't even accept that the symbolic phrase used "beloved city" is referring to current Jerusalem.

A few verses later that's 2 chapter later Revelation isn't written in chronological order did you see what verse 18 said?

18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

This is the same time as chapter 20:

The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[ewq1938]

A few verses later that's 2 chapter later Revelation isn't written in chronological order did you see what verse 18 said?

18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

This is the same time as chapter 20

That's not the same as found in Revelation 20. At the 7th trump the dead and living saved are rewarded before the thousand years. In Revelation 20 at the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) the unsaved dead are resurrected and then judged which is after the thousand years.

 

[Timtofly]

A few verses later that's 2 chapter later Revelation isn't written in chronological order did you see what verse 18 said?

18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

This is the same time as chapter 20:

The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

I am pretty sure chapter 13 comes before chapter 20. Chapter 12 goes back into the first century. Chapter 13 picks up where 11 stopped. So, yes, a few verses later.

 

[Marty fox]

The 7th trumpet sounds before the thousand years start. It is when the dead and living saints are judged and rewarded. The unsaved living will face wrath and after that those alive will be ruled with a rod of iron which is part of the reward given at the 7th trump.

The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

That's not the same as found in Revelation 20. At the 7th trump the dead and living saved are rewarded before the thousand years. In Revelation 20 at the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) the unsaved dead are resurrected and then judged which is after the thousand years.

But at the 7th trumpet it says

18The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

This is clearly the time of the judgement of the unsaved

 

[Marty fox]

I am pretty sure chapter 13 comes before chapter 20. Chapter 12 goes back into the first century. Chapter 13 picks up where 11 stopped. So, yes, a few verses later.

Maybe not because the 7th trumpet it says

18The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

This is clearly the time of the judgement of the unsaved

 

[ewq1938]

The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


But at the 7th trumpet it says

18The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

This is clearly the time of the judgement of the unsaved

It's clearly the judgement of the saved. It's the time for wrath towards the unsaved. Revelation 20 makes it clear by starting with the judging and resurrection of the saved (second coming - 7th trump timeframe), then a thousand years, a failed rebellion and THEN the resurrection and judgment of the unsaved.

Your error is a common one, mistaking the judgment of the dead at the 7th trump to be the unsaved dead when it is the judgment of the saved dead.

 

[Marty fox]

It's clearly the judgement of the saved. It's the time for wrath towards the unsaved. Revelation 20 makes it clear by starting with the judging and resurrection of the saved (second coming - 7th trump timeframe), then a thousand years, a failed rebellion and THEN the resurrection and judgment of the unsaved.

Your error is a common one, mistaking the judgment of the dead at the 7th trump to be the unsaved dead when it is the judgment of the saved dead.

Humm please read it again

18The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

So the saved dead are destroyed for destroying the earth and Gods wrath has come upon them?

 

[ewq1938]

Humm please read it again

18The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

So the saved dead are destroyed for destroying the earth and Gods wrath has come upon them?

No. You are mixing things together that shouldn't be. The passages speaks of 4 main things:

18The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,

Wrath, against the unsaved living.


And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,

Judging the dead.


And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,

Rewarding the saints

And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Destroying those who destroyed the Earth.

Clearly there are negative and positive things mentioned.


The wrath and destroying is for the unsaved, the judging and rewarding are for the saved. That matches what happens at the 7th trump second coming where the saved dead and living are rewarded, and the unsaved living face wrath and some- destruction.

The judging of the unsaved dead is not mentioned there because it doesn't happen at the 7th trump. Again, Revelation 20 spells all of this out nicely.

 

[Marty fox]

No. You are mixing things together that shouldn't be. The passages speaks of 4 main things:

18The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,

Wrath, against the unsaved living.


And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,

Judging the dead.


And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,

Rewarding the saints

And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Destroying those who destroyed the Earth.

Clearly there are negative and positive things mentioned.


The wrath and destroying is for the unsaved, the judging and rewarding are for the saved. That matches what happens at the 7th trump second coming where the saved dead and living are rewarded, and the unsaved living face wrath and some- destruction.

The judging of the unsaved dead is not mentioned there because it doesn't happen at the 7th trump. Again, Revelation 20 spells all of this out nicely.

But it says "that the time has come"

No. You are mixing things together that shouldn't be. The passages speaks of 4 main things:

18The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,

Wrath, against the unsaved living.


And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,

Judging the dead.


And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,

Rewarding the saints

And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Destroying those who destroyed the Earth.

Clearly there are negative and positive things mentioned.


The wrath and destroying is for the unsaved, the judging and rewarding are for the saved. That matches what happens at the 7th trump second coming where the saved dead and living are rewarded, and the unsaved living face wrath and some- destruction.

The judging of the unsaved dead is not mentioned there because it doesn't happen at the 7th trump. Again, Revelation 20 spells all of this out nicely.

But once again thats not what it says it says "And should destroy those who destroy the earth" the unsaved are judged here just in in chapter 20 thus these are one and the same events.

It doesn't say some of them you added "some destruction" you down played it to fit your view.