The Mark of the Beast (what it really is explained)

[Truther]

... how Scripture written so apparent can be missed by someone who calls himself a "teacher". Yep, that one is beyond my comprehension.

Bobby Jo

Bobby Jo, if you miss this....

4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


...you will be in real bad shape from that point on..

 

[Bobby Jo]

Bobby Jo, if you miss this....

You know one thing I won't miss? -- YOU!

On IGNORE,
Bobby Jo

 

[michaelvpardo]

I am under the impression that "6" is the number of man; "7" is the number of perfection"; and 10 is the number of completion.

For example there are SEVEN WORLD EMPIRES:

1. Gold, Babylon
2. Silver, Medo/Persia
3. Bronze, Greece
4. Iron, Rome
-- Clay, "Divided Kingdom"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard (actually a TIGER), China
-- 8. Dreadful, United Nations -- "was and is not" because it has NO Geography, NO Populous, NO Army, etc.
9. Millennial Kingdom
10. Eternity in Heaven​

Thus it's Perfectly (-seven-) Complete (-ten-).
Bobby Jo

I've heard this before as well, but according to scripture, that which is perfect has not yet come, but will with Christ's return and the institution of the millennial kingdom. (The interpretation of the relevant scripture is debatable, but I haven't seen anything close to perfection in this world.) I think a lot of the numerological interpretations of scripture have their root in free masonry (which places more emphasis on biblical symbolism than actual textual content.) Masonic influences on modern theology have been around for at least a few hundred years, so I'm leary of isogetical treatment of scripture from extrabiblical beliefs. It tends to be the basis for the foundation of cults and the Bible itself is pretty straightforward. To quote one of my favorite biblical teachers "The main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main." Unfortunately , our minds, our thinking, is formed by the world we know and are educated in and none of us possess the same experience and knowledge of the biblical writers that we might understand exactly everything that they were communicating. That's why I rely heavily on the teaching of the Holy Spirit (and the confirmation found in other Christian writings or preaching.) I don't disagree with the numbers being significant, but I hesitate to make them more significant than what is plainly stated.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I used to think that 7 was the number of completion and probably because esoteric teachings said so, but all creation was completed in the sixth day, not the seventh: 31And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. The beginning of the 2nd chapter of Genesis goes on to say that God finished His work on the seventh day and rested, but the implication of those verses is that the last part of God's work was not the creation (which in the sixth day was "very good.") Kinda makes you wonder what He was doing in those dark hours before the dawn of the seventh day.

I still believe the number seven stands for God righteous standards of completeness. How other choose to believe is their choice.

 

[JunChosen]

I am under the impression that "6" is the number of man; "7" is the number of perfection"; and 10 is the number of completion.

I totally agree.

For example there are SEVEN WORLD EMPIRES

I agree with the first four but you will never prove there is going to be a millennial kingdom even using Revelation 20.

To God Be The Glory

 

[JunChosen]

Then you are wrong.

You could not even make it through the 6th chapter...

FYI, The Book of Revelation is NOT chronically in order.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Then you are wrong.

You could not even make it through the 6th chapter...


6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Unless you can see into the future you can only present your interpretation of the tribulation....the 3 different interpretations of the "rapture" can supply scripture just as you did....even the same ones.
So pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib have never been able to disprove one another's interpretation of when the tribulation occurs and if the church will be here or not.
Today Israel signed a peace agreement with their adversary....it was prophesied that Israel would do this and that for 3.5 years there would be peace and prosperity....then Israel commits the abomination of desolation and sudden destruction comes, for 3.5 years death and famine and war would reign against them.
If this is the beginning of the 7 years then we should be leaving anytime now if pre-trib is true.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... I don't disagree with the numbers being significant, but I hesitate to make them more significant than what is plainly stated.

I agree, and really only arrived to that conclusion when numbering the Dan. 2 sequence. But given other input, it does make sense that in GOD's design "7" is "perfect" (whether a "week" or the "world empires"), and in a decimal system where "10" is "complete".

But all in all, it's nothing I obsess about!
Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

... If this is the beginning of the 7 years then we should be leaving anytime now if pre-trib is true.

And if it indeed is as some would purport, then Rev. 6 is lacking:

Rev. 6:13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

Obviously it SHOULD stipulate that these are the RAPTURED CHURCH, -- but it doesn't. Instead it suggests that these are those who are martyred for refusing to receive the mark of the beast:

Rev. 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​

But we often believe and defend what we're told, and not necessarily what Scripture actually says.
Bobby Jo

 

[michaelvpardo]

Unless you can see into the future you can only present your interpretation of the tribulation....the 3 different interpretations of the "rapture" can supply scripture just as you did....even the same ones.
So pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib have never been able to disprove one another's interpretation of when the tribulation occurs and if the church will be here or not.
Today Israel signed a peace agreement with their adversary....it was prophesied that Israel would do this and that for 3.5 years there would be peace and prosperity....then Israel commits the abomination of desolation and sudden destruction comes, for 3.5 years death and famine and war would reign against them.
If this is the beginning of the 7 years then we should be leaving anytime now if pre-trib is true.

I agree, and really only arrived to that conclusion when numbering the Dan. 2 sequence. But given other input, it does make sense that in GOD's creation "7" is "perfect" (whether a "week" or the "world empires"), and in a decimal system that "10" is "complete".

But all in all, it's nothing I obsess about!
Bobby Jo

I haven't read the account for a while, but as I recall, Solomon's throne had 6 steps leading up to it. I was under the impression that 6 represented the completion of creation while 7 represented divine perfection. The scripture says a righteous man falls 7 times and the conventional interpretation is that a righteous man falls completely (and consequently depends upon the righteousness of God.) I believe that God's inspiration of scripture demands some consistency in the description of spiritual matters, and I make that principle a part of my exegesis. I'm certainly capable of being mistaken and have been at times, but I trust in the character and constancy of our God and would have difficulty believing Him if He didn't remain the same, yesterday, today, and forever That immutable constancy is pretty much the basis of my Faith.

 

[JunChosen]

I'll grant you that the scripture actually does describe both the spirit of antichrist and the spirit of error, the spirit of this age, etc., but nowhere in scripture is Satan given attributes like God's as in omnipresence, omniscience

If you want to quote what I've said then please quote what I've said rather than what you THINK I've said. I have never given Satan such adulation! If you didn't understand what I've said then don't quote me but ask.

Now back to the subject at hand.

You said the things above because apparently you have never read 1 John 4:3 which reads:
"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that of anti-Christ, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

If you don't understand this verse just ask!! The only entity that fits this bill that is to come yet already is in the world when John penned this passage IS none other than Satan!!!

To God Be The Glory

 

[Heart2Soul]

And if it indeed is as some would purport, then Rev. 6 is lacking:

Rev. 6:13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

Obviously it SHOULD stipulate that these are the RAPTURED CHURCH, -- but it doesn't. Instead it suggests that these are those who are martyred for refusing to receive the mark of the beast:

Rev. 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​

But we often believe and defend what we're told, and not necessarily what Scripture actually says.
Bobby Jo

The Holy Spirit opened my eyes in 1985 about the rapture teaching. There is no rapture before or during the tribulation.
I was studying Revelation and things just didn't add up...the first thing I noticed is the antichrist appears 1st and sits upon the Holy Seat declaring himself to be the Messiah...
And then it was scripture after scripture that contradicted the pre-trib rapture teaching.

 

[Bobby Jo]

The Holy Spirit opened my eyes in 1985 about the rapture teaching. There is no rapture before or during the tribulation. ...

I too came to the TRUTH the long way around, having believed what I was told and then discovered for myself what the Scriptures actually said.


So now should we also correct the errant "seven-year-tribulation" doctrine? Yeah, it's another teaching which contradicts Scripture:

Rev. 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months ...​

And I may still be ignorant on other subjects, -- but that too can be cured!
Bobby Jo

 

[Truther]

FYI, The Book of Revelation is NOT chronically in order.

You mean the end of the world in chapter 20 should be in the beginning at chapter 1?

 

[Truther]

Unless you can see into the future you can only present your interpretation of the tribulation....the 3 different interpretations of the "rapture" can supply scripture just as you did....even the same ones.
So pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib have never been able to disprove one another's interpretation of when the tribulation occurs and if the church will be here or not.
Today Israel signed a peace agreement with their adversary....it was prophesied that Israel would do this and that for 3.5 years there would be peace and prosperity....then Israel commits the abomination of desolation and sudden destruction comes, for 3.5 years death and famine and war would reign against them.
If this is the beginning of the 7 years then we should be leaving anytime now if pre-trib is true.

I can present the best case for the 3 concepts.

Pre trib is easy to debate against the others.

If a skilled eschatology teacher would like to, I would challenge him or her to a debate on the subject.

If someone teaches a subject, they should be ready to defend it.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I too came to the TRUTH the long way around, having believed what I was told and then discovered for myself what the Scriptures actually said.


So now should we also correct the errant "seven-year-tribulation" doctrine? Yeah, it's another teaching which contradicts Scripture:

Rev. 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months ...​

And I may still be ignorant on other subjects, -- but that too can be cured!
Bobby Jo

It wasn't a preacher or teacher who showed me this truth....it was the Holy Spirit....but I was seeker! I searched scriptures continuously looking for Truth....His Truth not religions.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I can present the best case for the 3 concepts.

Pre trib is easy to debate against the others.

If a skilled eschatology teacher would like to, I would challenge him or her to a debate on the subject.

If someone teaches a subject, they should be ready to defend it.

I suppose they should...I am not a teacher...I am a humble servant who continues to seek Truth...the Holy Spirit revealed this to me years ago that the rapture teaching began during a time that protestant faith was emerging. Darby I believe first presented his interpretation of scripture to mean the church would be raptured.
But I can't open anyone's eyes to see...I was blind too until He opened my eyes to see.

 

[Truther]

I suppose they should...I am not a teacher...I am a humble servant who continues to seek Truth...the Holy Spirit revealed this to me years ago that the rapture teaching began during a time that protestant faith was emerging. Darby I believe first presented his interpretation of scripture to mean the church would be raptured.
But I can't open anyone's eyes to see...I was blind too until He opened my eyes to see.

I thought Paul taught it first...

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


At least I am comforted.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I thought Paul taught it first...

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


At least I am comforted.

Maybe that's the scripture Darby was referencing when he interpreted that to say the church will be raptured before the tribulation.
But there has been many tribulations in history and the church wasn't raptured.
But if scripture says the antichrist will come first and sit upon the Holy Seat then how does the rapture get squeezed in.

 

[Truther]

Maybe that's the scripture Darby was referencing when he interpreted that to say the church will be raptured before the tribulation.
But there has been many tribulations in history and the church wasn't raptured.
But if scripture says the antichrist will come first and sit upon the Holy Seat then how does the rapture get squeezed in.

Scripture says that the Church(Holy Ghost) is holding the antichrist back....


7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: