The Mid Tribulation Rapture

[Eric E Stahl]

I am a pre Tib believer. I would like you to help me understand why you are a mid trib believer.

 

[iamlamad]

This should be interesting. lamad

 

[Eric E Stahl]

This should be interesting. lamad

[SIZE=12pt]The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation 11:3,7-14 KJV[/SIZE],
the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. Revelation 14:1-4 KJV,
and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4 KJV

I can't find any passages that indicate that the church age believers will be raptured then.

I know some think the last trumpt judgment is the last trump of God spoken of in 1Corinthians 15:52 but I don't because that is when the people I listed are being called up.

2 Timothy 4:1 speaks of two judgments.
1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

I believe His appearing is the pre trib rapture of the church age believers spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

and His kingdom is the mid trib taking back of the kingdoms of this world Revelation 11:15 because of Revelation 12:7-14 at the 7th trumpet judgment.

 

[daq]

[SIZE=12pt]The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation 11:3,7-14 KJV[/SIZE],
the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. Revelation 14:1-4 KJV,
and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4 KJV

I can't find any passages that indicate that the church age believers will be raptured then.

I know some think the last trumpt judgment is the last trump of God spoken of in 1Corinthians 15:52 but I don't because that is when the people I listed are being called up.

2 Timothy 4:1 speaks of two judgments.
1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

I believe His appearing is the pre trib rapture of the church age believers spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

and His kingdom is the mid trib taking back of the kingdoms of this world Revelation 11:15 because of Revelation 12:7-14 at the 7th trumpet judgment.

This reply is somewhat fascinating seeing how you are a Baptist. You have basically suggested a form of soul sleep, (the calling up of "the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation" at "mid-trib") but make no reference to the same when you quote 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 in support of a "pre-trib" rapture which surely concerns "them which are asleep" (which are "members" of our own households). Yet if indeed you understood the full context of the 1Thessalonians4 passage and the cutting off of sin from your own vessel, (as in "mortify your members which are upon the earth") you would be in the process of cutting off all those "members" which offend you, (like a wondering right eye, or a right hand with too much power, or an evil foot running quickly into mischief). And then, indeed, knowing that some members of your own household had been put to sleep; you would likewise be engaged in "baptizing for the dead", (for the members of your own household which you were forced to put to sleep) as even Paul says we do; for the man is the house with its various members. And when the Master returns he will bring with him those which are asleep and restore those members to the good and faithful servant who was forced to put them to sleep to begin with. Then all of the members of your household would be raised up, your mortal body quickened, and employed in the Kingdom of God working righteousness in Messiah to the glory of God. Have you not read how Saul was used in the beginning for to baptize the entire household of Stephanas? And then likewise Saul was converted to Paul. :)

 

[afaithfulone4u]

There are only 3 accounts the term CAUGHT UP appear in the Bible and they all mean caught up to heaven.
Revelation is given to John of things to COME from that point on by the ALREADY RESURRECTED Jesus, so the birth of the MAN CHILD(Children of God, sons of God, body of Christ as in MEMBERS) in Rev 12:5 being caught up to God's throne is NOT the ASCENTION of Jesus our savior, but those who are the living stones of the temple who are of his holy(ones) body the 144,000.

2 Cor 12:2-4
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
KJV

1 Thess 4:17-18
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV

Rev 12:5-6
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
KJV

Now this caught up to God's throne could mean in governmental positions on earth so that they are not destroyed in the fires of war,tornados, hurricanes, famine, diseases etc... but it does say their days of the elect shall be shortened. But the church is not all going to be worthy of escape so God has a place for them to go and be fed SPIRITUALLY and physically to get them to a further growth in Christ/the Word for 3-1/2 yrs, because those led of their flesh can not inherit the kingdom of God.

You will notice that in this verse below that the term Man Child refers to CHILDREN as in a nation born in one day
Isa 66:6-10
6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
7 Before (Caught up to escape)she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem(HEAVENLY), and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her(NATURAL JERUSALEM):
KJV
And this nation will be a holy nation of 144,000 kings and priests made in the image of Christ/The Word who inherit the Bride(heavenly Jerusalem) the 12 tribes of RESTORED Israel in which were in the natural born of Jews and Gentiles(mothers), but one Jewish father, so are they of Jew and & Gentile in Christ (The SEED of God)were made into the One new Man by the Spirit being a holy nation that will be born in one day. Just as Jacob(sons) is also called Israel(the Woman) so shall the reborn sons of the Spirit marry the land(heavenly Jerusalem our mother) with one Father(God)

Isa 62:4-7
4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzi-bah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,
7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
KJV

 

[iamlamad]

[SIZE=12pt]The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation 11:3,7-14 KJV[/SIZE],
the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. Revelation 14:1-4 KJV,
and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4 KJV

I can't find any passages that indicate that the church age believers will be raptured then.

I know some think the last trumpt judgment is the last trump of God spoken of in 1Corinthians 15:52 but I don't because that is when the people I listed are being called up.

2 Timothy 4:1 speaks of two judgments.
1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

I believe His appearing is the pre trib rapture of the church age believers spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

and His kingdom is the mid trib taking back of the kingdoms of this world Revelation 11:15 because of Revelation 12:7-14 at the 7th trumpet judgment.

Sorry, but you have not understood John's chronology. Rev. 11:4-13 is a parenthesis.

The two witnesses show up to begin their testimony 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint, the 7th trumpet. They testify for 1260 days which takes them almost to the 7th vial that ends the week. They are killed and lay dead for 3 1/2 days and are resurrected with the rest of the Old Testament saints at the 7th vial, which is the "last day," of the age.

However, I believe the 144,000 are caught up at the midpoint. They are shown in chapter 14 around the throne in heaven.

Lamad

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Sorry, but you have not understood John's chronology. Rev. 11:4-13 is a parenthesis.

The two witnesses show up to begin their testimony 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint, the 7th trumpet. They testify for 1260 days which takes them almost to the 7th vial that ends the week. They are killed and lay dead for 3 1/2 days and are resurrected with the rest of the Old Testament saints at the 7th vial, which is the "last day," of the age.

However, I believe the 144,000 are caught up at the midpoint. They are shown in chapter 14 around the throne in heaven.

Lamad

Revelation 11:3-14
3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundre
d and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

The second woe and 6th trumpet judgment are finished after the two witnesses have finished their 1260 day testamony during the first half of the tribulation.

 

[veteran]

Wrong.

God's two witnesses finish their testimony at the ending of the LAST HALF of Daniel's "one week".

The 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period flows all the way from Rev.9:13 to Rev.11:14, with the final 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe signaling the time of Christ's coming to gather His Church and end the tribulation and reign of the wicked on earth.



6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe Timing:


Rev 11:1-18
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

That temple will be the new temple the orthodox Jews plan to build today in Jerusalem. They will be worshipping in it, and deceived Gentiles will tread its courts and the city for... 42 months, the SAME timing of reign given in Rev.13:5 of 42 months. That 1260 days that God's two witnesses are given to prophesy is equal to that same 42 months timing.

So... 42 months dragon reigning, 1260 days God's witnesses prophesying, equal SAME period.


4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

God's two witnesses cannot be harmed during their 1260 given days of prophesying.



7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


The "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" is the devil himself, that's one of his many title descriptions. At the end of the two witnesses' testimony, the devil will kill them and leave their bodies laying in the plaza of Jerusalem for 3.5 days. The nations will 'see' their dead bodies in Jerusalem, pointing to modern media technology.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.


In the "same hour" those events happen at the ending of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe begins.


15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

When it says the kingdoms of THIS world then become those of The LORD and of His Christ, it means that's the start of Christ's future reign on earth over the nations. It means His second coming happened on that 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe. In Rev.16:15 He gives a warning to His Church still on earth at the 6th Vial to remain steadfast waiting for Him. The 7th Vial is the same timing as this 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period.

 

[iamlamad]

Revelation 11:3-14
3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundre
d and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

The second woe and 6th trumpet judgment are finished after the two witnesses have finished their 1260 day testamony during the first half of the tribulation.

Like I say, you missed the fact that verses 4 through 13 are written as a parenthesis. (I colored that part) Notice that if they show up here at their first mention, and testify for 1260 days, they MUST BE close to the end of the week, for John is very close to the midpoint here. Notice 12:6 shows those in Judea fleeing, which, according to Jesus will be the very moment they saw the abomination. Therefore the abomination happened seconds before 12:6 but John did not see it.

Backing up from 12:6 we find another parenthesis in 12:1-5. so they don't count in chronology. Backing up into chapter 11, we find worship and prophecy by the 24 elders, and then before that we see the 7th trumpet has sounded. Therefore I submit that the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven to MARK the time of the abomination on earth.

Further proof, God spoke to me and said that the midpoint was clearly marked, and said once I find that I would find the entire 70th week clearly marked. I knew in my spirit the instant He said that, He was using the same "marker." So the entire 70th week is marked by 7's, the 7th seal officially opens the 70th week and day of the Lord with the 30 minutes of silence, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends the week with "it is done."

Further proof, when God said I could find the midpoint clearly marked, and I ask Him how, He said that every time He mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end, He included the period of 3 1/2 years. When I find these mentions, the exact midpoint would be very close. These five mentions are all in chapters 11-13 making these midpoint chapters.

Finally, when John wrote of the 42 months of trampling, we don't assume the next verse is 42 months later: we understand the 42 month count will begin there. When John wrote of the 1260 days of fleeing, we don't assume the next verse is 1260 days later: we understand the 1260 days count will begin there. When John wrote of the time, times and half of time of protection, we don't assume the next verse is 3 1/2 years later: we understand the 3 1/2 year count will begin there. When John wrote of the 42 months of authority, we don't assume the next verse is 42 months later: we understand the 42 month count will begin there.

Therefore, it is just good exegesis to consider that when John mentions the 1260 days of testifying that his meaning is NOT that those 1260 days play out in chapter 11, and that verse 14 is now 1260 days later. No, verses 4 through 13 are written as a parenthesis with no bearing on chronology. John just chose to write a Side Journey or rabbit trail down the path of the two witnesses. Make no mistake, they begin their testimony 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint, testify for 1260 days, are put to death and lay dead for 3 1/2 days, then are raised at the 7th vial that ends the week.

So the chronology is this:

The man of sin arrives in Jerusalem perhaps a week before the abomination with his Gentile armies. (Verses 1& 2.)

The two witnesses show up 3 1/2 days before the midpoint and begin their testimony. (Verse 3)

The 7th trumpet sounds, marking the exact midpoint of the week. (Verse 15)

Those living in Judea flee for their lives one or two seconds after they see the abomination. (12:6)

Michael goes after Satan and all his devils to cast them down, for Adam's lease (6000 years) has ended at the 7th trumpet (the mystery) and suddenly Satan has no more legal ground: he usurped Adam's lease and it is now expired: so Michael casts him down. (12:7)

Finally, 3 1/2 years later, the two witnesses are killed. Notice there is an earthquake when they rise? It is the SAME EARTHQUAKE we see at the 7th vial.

John is very very careful in His chronology! It is correct as written. There is never a need to rearrange it.

In your theory, the woman (those living in Judea) are fleeing sometime far into the last half of the week. That is not the Author's intent.

Lamad

 

[veteran]

Like I say, you missed the fact that verses 4 through 13 are written as a parenthesis. (I colored that part) Notice that if they show up here at their first mention, and testify for 1260 days, they MUST BE close to the end of the week, for John is very close to the midpoint here. Notice 12:6 shows those in Judea fleeing, which, according to Jesus will be the very moment they saw the abomination. Therefore the abomination happened seconds before 12:6 but John did not see it.

No, those Rev.11:4-13 verses are not... written as a parenthesis, simply because it's giving specific events to occur involving those two witnesses and those in Jerusalem.

The MIDPOINT of Daniel's final "one week" had already... begin when those two witnesses show up in Jerusalem. You're trying to move that period just to suit your false doctrines.



Backing up from 12:6 we find another parenthesis in 12:1-5. so they don't count in chronology. Backing up into chapter 11, we find worship and prophecy by the 24 elders, and then before that we see the 7th trumpet has sounded. Therefore I submit that the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven to MARK the time of the abomination on earth.

Whilie Rev.12:1-5 indeed is a type of summary covering a long period, the Rev.11 chapter is NOT!

The Rev.11 chapter is covering events to occur within the latter part of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, and then the final 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period. In other words, that's DEFINITELY about... chronological order of events.


Further proof, God spoke to me and said that the midpoint was clearly marked, and said once I find that I would find the entire 70th week clearly marked. I knew in my spirit the instant He said that, He was using the same "marker." So the entire 70th week is marked by 7's, the 7th seal officially opens the 70th week and day of the Lord with the 30 minutes of silence, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends the week with "it is done."

God didn't speak you, you deceiver. What baloney will you try to make up when He returns to silence your falseness?

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Wrong.

God's two witnesses finish their testimony at the ending of the LAST HALF of Daniel's "one week".

The 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period flows all the way from Rev.9:13 to Rev.11:14, with the final 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe signaling the time of Christ's coming to gather His Church and end the tribulation and reign of the wicked on earth.



6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe Timing:

Rev 11:1-18
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

That temple will be the new temple the orthodox Jews plan to build today in Jerusalem. They will be worshipping in it, and deceived Gentiles will tread its courts and the city for... 42 months, the SAME timing of reign given in Rev.13:5 of 42 months. That 1260 days that God's two witnesses are given to prophesy is equal to that same 42 months timing.

So... 42 months dragon reigning, 1260 days God's witnesses prophesying, equal SAME period.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

God's two witnesses cannot be harmed during their 1260 given days of prophesying.


7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


The "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" is the devil himself, that's one of his many title descriptions. At the end of the two witnesses' testimony, the devil will kill them and leave their bodies laying in the plaza of Jerusalem for 3.5 days. The nations will 'see' their dead bodies in Jerusalem, pointing to modern media technology.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.


In the "same hour" those events happen at the ending of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe begins.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

When it says the kingdoms of THIS world then become those of The LORD and of His Christ, it means that's the start of Christ's future reign on earth over the nations. It means His second coming happened on that 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe. In Rev.16:15 He gives a warning to His Church still on earth at the 6th Vial to remain steadfast waiting for Him. The 7th Vial is the same timing as this 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period.

The kingdoms of this world become the property of the Lord and his Christ at the 7th trumpet judgment but they don't occupy the earth till after Armageddon. God judges the fallen angels with the rebellious men on the earth for 3.5years.

Isaiah 24:21-23
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish (((Revelation 12:7-14))) the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days(((3.5 years))) shall they be visited.
23Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

 

[iamlamad]

Like I say, you missed the fact that verses 4 through 13 are written as a parenthesis. (I colored that part) Notice that if they show up here at their first mention, and testify for 1260 days, they MUST BE close to the end of the week, for John is very close to the midpoint here. Notice 12:6 shows those in Judea fleeing, which, according to Jesus will be the very moment they saw the abomination. Therefore the abomination happened seconds before 12:6 but John did not see it.

No, those Rev.11:4-13 verses are not... written as a parenthesis, simply because it's giving specific events to occur involving those two witnesses and those in Jerusalem.

The MIDPOINT of Daniel's final "one week" had already... begin when those two witnesses show up in Jerusalem. You're trying to move that period just to suit your false doctrines.



Backing up from 12:6 we find another parenthesis in 12:1-5. so they don't count in chronology. Backing up into chapter 11, we find worship and prophecy by the 24 elders, and then before that we see the 7th trumpet has sounded. Therefore I submit that the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven to MARK the time of the abomination on earth.

Whilie Rev.12:1-5 indeed is a type of summary covering a long period, the Rev.11 chapter is NOT!

The Rev.11 chapter is covering events to occur within the latter part of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, and then the final 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period. In other words, that's DEFINITELY about... chronological order of events.


Further proof, God spoke to me and said that the midpoint was clearly marked, and said once I find that I would find the entire 70th week clearly marked. I knew in my spirit the instant He said that, He was using the same "marker." So the entire 70th week is marked by 7's, the 7th seal officially opens the 70th week and day of the Lord with the 30 minutes of silence, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends the week with "it is done."

God didn't speak you, you deceiver. What baloney will you try to make up when He returns to silence your falseness?

When will you learn, I back up EVERYTHING I say with scripture, rightly divided and understood. I wished you did. We would not be disagreeing if you did.

Were YOU THERE When He spoke to me? I guess not! Did you never read, "My sheep hear my voice?" Now I am beginning to see why your doctrines are always off. He doesn't speak to you.

What did Jesus say? I will find them for you:

Mat. 24
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

What do these verses tell you? Those living in Judea will flee within SECONDS of seeing the abomination.

Rev. 12
6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Therefore, Rev. 12:6 is only SECONDS after the abomination. So your goofy theory is OFF, as usual. THE event that marks the exact midpoint and the time of the abomination is the 7th trumpet.

Therefore, the starting of the two witnesses testimony is only 3 1/2 days BEFORE the exact midpoint. The starting of the trampling is perhaps a WEEK before the exact midpoint. These two things are BEFORE the abomination.

Is Rev 11:3 42 months after Rev. 11:2?
Is Rev 12:7 1260 days after 12:6?
Is Rev 12:15 3 1/2 years after 12:14?
Is Rev. 13:6 42 months after 13:5?

Of course the answer to all of these is NO! It is understood that this is the time the counting STARTS. The entire time is not included in the verse.

Well, neither is it meant to be included with the two witnesses either. They begin their testimony just before the exact midpoint, the abomination, and they are killed just before the END of the week, just before the 7th vial.

So Rev.11:4-13 IS A PARENTHESIS.

If it is not, then you have the woman fleeing about 3 1/2 days before the week ends. And you have pushed the midpoint to the END of the week. Now you have a week that is 1260 in the first half, and 84 months in the second half. Sorry, it won't work. It IS a parenthesis whether or not you can see it.

Veteran, you are the school yard BULLY here. If anyone disagrees with you, they are hearing doctrines of man, or something worse. It is pathetic, for it is you who is frequently wrong. I have caught you wrong time and time again. And here in Rev. 11 is one more time you are dead wrong. I got my doctrine straight from heaven. I did not listen to anyone else. You are wrong about the first seals. The first five seals were broken as soon as Jesus ascended into heaven, about 32 AD. Did you never read John: "I looked... ...in the midst of the elders stood a Lamb as though it had been slain." John saw the instant Jesus ascended.

Lamad

 

[veteran]

When will you learn, I back up EVERYTHING I say with scripture, rightly divided and understood. I wished you did. We would not be disagreeing if you did.

You're about as full of horse dung as anyone I've ever spoken to. And I've spoken to some really shinning winners!



Were YOU THERE When He spoke to me? I guess not! Did you never read, "My sheep hear my voice?" Now I am beginning to see why your doctrines are always off. He doesn't speak to you.


He doesn't speak to you. You're listening to another spirit, not Him. If you listened to Him, then you would seek His Truth in His Word instead of butchering it just so you can follow what men say instead.



What did Jesus say? I will find them for you:

Mat. 24
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

What do these verses tell you? Those living in Judea will flee within SECONDS of seeing the abomination.

Flee to the mountains, NOT TO Heaven. Being on the housetop for what reason? To watch; that's a Biblical symbol for the watchman. This is NOT a Rapture.




Rev. 12
6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Therefore, Rev. 12:6 is only SECONDS after the abomination. So your goofy theory is OFF, as usual. THE event that marks the exact midpoint and the time of the abomination is the 7th trumpet.

WHOAH! How did you get from Matt.24 all the way to Rev.12 so fast? What was that you said that you rightly divide The Scriptures??

Do you really think you can link every word like 'flee' in God's Word to the SAME event??? That's CRAZY!

What you're doing is playing Russian roulette with God's Word! No wonder He has closed off your understanding!

Obviously, you don't understand how that first mention of 1260 days in Rev.12:6 is about the FIRST HALF of Daniel's symbolic "one week", and NOT the last half, nor even the MIDPOINT!

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I am a pre Tib believer. I would like you to help me understand why you are a mid trib believer.

I am pre-trib but I can see merit in the mid trib position as well ..... mostly I see it as pre wrath .... in the sense that the endtimes wrath is designated for the unbelieving world ...... it is not directed toward the church Jesus has built.

The worst of the wrath appears to begin around mid trib.

As a side note .... I try to ponder other reasons God may use the rapture ...... not only to keep His followers safe , it would also be a dramatic notice to the world that something new is taking place ...... in other words I do not feel it will be a gentle start to the 7 year period .... it will be sudden and abrupt ..... yet a bit of breathing room will remain (3 1/2 years) for some late-comers to convert before the full wrath comes.

The rapture of all the Christians would certainly be a big event and put the world on notice.

Those are just some thoughts and speculation on my part.

I also feel that most Christians have a hard time distinguishing between the remaining "elect of Israel" and "saved Christians" during end times revelation

Even the scholars swim in murky water on that subject ....... i feel if we can clearly distinguish between the church and Israel we can clarify most of the book revelation.

 

[Brothertom]

I also believe in a Post-Trib, but Pre-Wrath rapture. There definitly IS a day of Wrath appointed for the wicked on this Earth:

"And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders,the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks,

“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”.........and .Christians are not appointed to Wrath. This is what confuses so many in Christian circles: They confuse Tribulation & Persecution with wrath; It is not.

The Lord has rolled up time, & sits upon His Throne on this day, & then rises to gird Himself for battle. At that time the Tribulation ends for all true believers: they have been gathered into His Heavenly Barn, in the twinkling of an eye! Yes, there has been Martyr-dom & suffering for the church...but....

"And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God!"

And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

John, knew what a brother was, & the difference: " I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ."....& the great apostle Paul writes:

"But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—.....what persecutions I endured.........

And out of them all the Lord delivered me.

Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus Will suffer persecution!! "

And let us consider the Hall of Fame of faith!...Hebrews 11:
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted,[ were slain with the sword.
They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us."

& I believe that this is a picture of the End-Time church, the Remnant Bride, A Prophetic picture of what we must expect in this coming Tribulation....so close........

I have travelled , by the Word of the Lord, to the true "underground" Church deep into the interior of Communist China, to minister to them. I call them the "Hunted church", unable to function without being arrested, & worse. They came to me by night, with sentrys warning them with cell phones...fearful. They were mostly women...the men had gone into deep hiding....a place where there were no names....& no money changing hands....just needy faith.

When the mark of the beast [ Osama Bin Laden ]* comes, true Christians will be be-headed for refusing to worship him...worldwide....with MILLIONS BEING Martyred...with no way out except to overcome by death....& there will be a remnant who does overcome....This is not wrath....it has always been so toward the holy Church...Always.....with brief "breathers" through out the centuries.
CAREFULLY READ THIS PASSAGE, AS IT WRAPS THE TRIBULATION PERSECUTION TOGETHER WITH THE WRATH PART....DESCRIBING WHAT THE RAPTURE & WRATH IS ALL ABOUT.

We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your PERSECUTIONS and TRIBULATIONS that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for WHICH YOU ALSO SUFFER; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the WHEN THE LORD JESUS IS REVEALED from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking VENGEANCE on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, [ simultaneously ]
,....AT THE SAME TIME!!...] ....to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.


So, it is very clear that this is at the End of the Tribulation Persecution & the end of the Anti-Christ's reign, & the "Wrath of the Lamb!"...& our gathering together unto Him...The Rapture....when He appears, & stops time.

 

[veteran]

I am pre-trib but I can see merit in the mid trib position as well ..... mostly I see it as pre wrath .... in the sense that the endtimes wrath is designated for the unbelieving world ...... it is not directed toward the church Jesus has built.

The worst of the wrath appears to begin around mid trib.

As a side note .... I try to ponder other reasons God may use the rapture ...... not only to keep His followers safe , it would also be a dramatic notice to the world that something new is taking place ...... in other words I do not feel it will be a gentle start to the 7 year period .... it will be sudden and abrupt ..... yet a bit of breathing room will remain (3 1/2 years) for some late-comers to convert before the full wrath comes.

The rapture of all the Christians would certainly be a big event and put the world on notice.

Those are just some thoughts and speculation on my part.

I also feel that most Christians have a hard time distinguishing between the remaining "elect of Israel" and "saved Christians" during end times revelation

Even the scholars swim in murky water on that subject ....... i feel if we can clearly distinguish between the church and Israel we can clarify most of the book revelation.

If you'd actually studied God's OT prophets, and linked that study with Christ's and His Apostle's agreement with those OT Scriptures, you would not be Pre-Trib nor Mid-Trib, period.

I also believe in a Post-Trib, but Pre-Wrath rapture. There definitly IS a day of Wrath appointed for the wicked on this Earth:

"And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders,the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks,

“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”.........and .Christians are not appointed to Wrath. This is what confuses so many in Christian circles: They confuse Tribulation & Persecution with wrath; It is not.

The Lord has rolled up time, & sits upon His Throne on this day, & then rises to gird Himself for battle. At that time the Tribulation ends for all true believers: they have been gathered into His Heavenly Barn, in the twinkling of an eye! Yes, there has been Martyr-dom & suffering for the church...but....

"And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God!"

And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

John, knew what a brother was, & the difference: " I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ."....& the great apostle Paul writes:

"But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—.....what persecutions I endured.........

And out of them all the Lord delivered me.

Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus Will suffer persecution!! "

And let us consider the Hall of Fame of faith!...Hebrews 11:
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted,[ were slain with the sword.
They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us."

& I believe that this is a picture of the End-Time church, the Remnant Bride, A Prophetic picture of what we must expect in this coming Tribulation....so close........

I have travelled , by the Word of the Lord, to the true "underground" Church deep into the interior of Communist China, to minister to them. I call them the "Hunted church", unable to function without being arrested, & worse. They came to me by night, with sentrys warning them with cell phones...fearful. They were mostly women...the men had gone into deep hiding....a place where there were no names....& no money changing hands....just needy faith.

When the mark of the beast [ Osama Bin Laden ]* comes, true Christians will be be-headed for refusing to worship him...worldwide....with MILLIONS BEING Martyred...with no way out except to overcome by death....& there will be a remnant who does overcome....This is not wrath....it has always been so toward the holy Church...Always.....with brief "breathers" through out the centuries.
CAREFULLY READ THIS PASSAGE, AS IT WRAPS THE TRIBULATION PERSECUTION TOGETHER WITH THE WRATH PART....DESCRIBING WHAT THE RAPTURE & WRATH IS ALL ABOUT.

We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your PERSECUTIONS and TRIBULATIONS that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for WHICH YOU ALSO SUFFER; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the WHEN THE LORD JESUS IS REVEALED from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking VENGEANCE on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, [ simultaneously ]
,....AT THE SAME TIME!!...] ....to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.


So, it is very clear that this is at the End of the Tribulation Persecution & the end of the Anti-Christ's reign, & the "Wrath of the Lamb!"...& our gathering together unto Him...The Rapture....when He appears, & stops time.

Like I've said many times before in many posts, the events to occur on the day of Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord" take up many, many more pages than the time it takes for them to occur.

The way to know that is to stay focused on the symbolic links He gave between all the many descriptions of those events in different Books of God's Word.

Christ's coming in the clouds, His sending His angels to gather His Church, the battle of Armageddon, God's wrath poured out upon the wicked, God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth and great shaking of the earth, hills and mountains made into plains, the great earthquake in Jerusalem, Paul's change at the twinkling of an eye on the last trump, etc., ALL... occur within the same 'hour' of His coming back to this earth at the Mount of Olivet.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Wrong.

God's two witnesses finish their testimony at the ending of the LAST HALF of Daniel's "one week".

The 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period flows all the way from Rev.9:13 to Rev.11:14, with the final 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe signaling the time of Christ's coming to gather His Church and end the tribulation and reign of the wicked on earth.



6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe Timing:

Rev 11:1-18
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

That temple will be the new temple the orthodox Jews plan to build today in Jerusalem. They will be worshipping in it, and deceived Gentiles will tread its courts and the city for... 42 months, the SAME timing of reign given in Rev.13:5 of 42 months. That 1260 days that God's two witnesses are given to prophesy is equal to that same 42 months timing.

So... 42 months dragon reigning, 1260 days God's witnesses prophesying, equal SAME period.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

God's two witnesses cannot be harmed during their 1260 given days of prophesying.


7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


The "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" is the devil himself, that's one of his many title descriptions. At the end of the two witnesses' testimony, the devil will kill them and leave their bodies laying in the plaza of Jerusalem for 3.5 days. The nations will 'see' their dead bodies in Jerusalem, pointing to modern media technology.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.


In the "same hour" those events happen at the ending of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe begins.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

When it says the kingdoms of THIS world then become those of The LORD and of His Christ, it means that's the start of Christ's future reign on earth over the nations. It means His second coming happened on that 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe. In Rev.16:15 He gives a warning to His Church still on earth at the 6th Vial to remain steadfast waiting for Him. The 7th Vial is the same timing as this 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period.

Veteran,

The 7th trumpet and third woe are the Devil who will persecute the woman Israel for 3.5 years or the last half of the tribulation.

Revelation 12:7-14
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe(third) to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

 

[veteran]

"Veteran,

The 7th trumpet and third woe are the Devil who will persecute the woman Israel for 3.5 years or the last half of the tribulation."


The 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period is the hour of Christ's coming per the Rev.11 Scripture.
Rev 11:11-15
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
(KJV)


The particular "Woe" you mention back at Rev.12:12 is right AFTER... the devil and his angels are cast down to this earth to begin the great tribulation. Per Rev.9:11 to Rev.11:14, that is about the SECOND Woe period, i.e., the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe.

 

[iamlamad]

When will you learn, I back up EVERYTHING I say with scripture, rightly divided and understood. I wished you did. We would not be disagreeing if you did.

You're about as full of horse dung as anyone I've ever spoken to. And I've spoken to some really shinning winners!



Were YOU THERE When He spoke to me? I guess not! Did you never read, "My sheep hear my voice?" Now I am beginning to see why your doctrines are always off. He doesn't speak to you.


He doesn't speak to you. You're listening to another spirit, not Him. If you listened to Him, then you would seek His Truth in His Word instead of butchering it just so you can follow what men say instead.

Be careful what you say about this. Be wise. There are many people filled with the Holy Spirit that disagree with you. WHO are you maligning?

What did Jesus say? I will find them for you:

Mat. 24
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

What do these verses tell you? Those living in Judea will flee within SECONDS of seeing the abomination.

Flee to the mountains, NOT TO Heaven. Being on the housetop for what reason? To watch; that's a Biblical symbol for the watchman. This is NOT a Rapture.

Where did you EVER get that idea? OF COURSE flee to the mountains. My point was not about a rapture, it was that the abomination had to be just a few seconds before this verse - but I see that went right over your head. Where is Foghorn Leghorn?


Rev. 12
6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Therefore, Rev. 12:6 is only SECONDS after the abomination. So your goofy theory is OFF, as usual. THE event that marks the exact midpoint and the time of the abomination is the 7th trumpet.

WHOAH! How did you get from Matt.24 all the way to Rev.12 so fast? What was that you said that you rightly divide The Scriptures??

Do you really think you can link every word like 'flee' in God's Word to the SAME event??? That's CRAZY!

What you're doing is playing Russian roulette with God's Word! No wonder He has closed off your understanding!

Obviously, you don't understand how that first mention of 1260 days in Rev.12:6 is about the FIRST HALF of Daniel's symbolic "one week", and NOT the last half, nor even the MIDPOINT!

Again, you are dreaming: ALL mentions of the 3 1/2 year period of time, whether in years, months or days, are for the SECOND half. IF you think 12:6 is NOT about them fleeing because they have seen the abomination, perhaps you can come up with something better? If the abomination is NOT in chapter 11, perhaps you can show us where it really is?

Perhaps you need remedial Math: 101. When God speaks of days, as in 1260 days, that means this time period is going to be accurate to the exact day. If we subtract 1260 (the time of the fleeing as in 12:6) from 1260 (the length of the second half of the week) we get ZERO days. What does this mean? It means the abomination MUST TAKE PLACE immediately before 12:6. Not one day before, not one week before, not one month before, but SECONDS before. Therefore this fleeing is the EXACT FLEEING Jesus spoke about in Matt. 24.

In Rev. 11:2, that 42 months is going to be accurate to the very month, but perhaps not exactly to the day. That tells me that even at 11:2, and 11:3, John is VERY CLOSE to the exact midpoint and abomination. Again, the 1260 days (verse 3) must be accurate to the exact day. But they lay dead for 3 1/2 days. Therefore, they SHOW UP exactly 3 1/2 days before the abomination. It is beginning arithmetic. Lamad

 

[veteran]

When will you learn, I back up EVERYTHING I say with scripture, rightly divided and understood. I wished you did. We would not be disagreeing if you did.

You're about as full of horse dung as anyone I've ever spoken to. And I've spoken to some really shinning winners!



Were YOU THERE When He spoke to me? I guess not! Did you never read, "My sheep hear my voice?" Now I am beginning to see why your doctrines are always off. He doesn't speak to you.


He doesn't speak to you. You're listening to another spirit, not Him. If you listened to Him, then you would seek His Truth in His Word instead of butchering it just so you can follow what men say instead.

Be careful what you say about this. Be wise. There are many people filled with the Holy Spirit that disagree with you. WHO are you maligning?

What did Jesus say? I will find them for you:

Mat. 24
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

What do these verses tell you? Those living in Judea will flee within SECONDS of seeing the abomination.

Flee to the mountains, NOT TO Heaven. Being on the housetop for what reason? To watch; that's a Biblical symbol for the watchman. This is NOT a Rapture.

Where did you EVER get that idea? OF COURSE flee to the mountains. My point was not about a rapture, it was that the abomination had to be just a few seconds before this verse - but I see that went right over your head. Where is Foghorn Leghorn?


Rev. 12
6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Therefore, Rev. 12:6 is only SECONDS after the abomination. So your goofy theory is OFF, as usual. THE event that marks the exact midpoint and the time of the abomination is the 7th trumpet.

WHOAH! How did you get from Matt.24 all the way to Rev.12 so fast? What was that you said that you rightly divide The Scriptures??

Do you really think you can link every word like 'flee' in God's Word to the SAME event??? That's CRAZY!

What you're doing is playing Russian roulette with God's Word! No wonder He has closed off your understanding!

Obviously, you don't understand how that first mention of 1260 days in Rev.12:6 is about the FIRST HALF of Daniel's symbolic "one week", and NOT the last half, nor even the MIDPOINT!

Again, you are dreaming: ALL mentions of the 3 1/2 year period of time, whether in years, months or days, are for the SECOND half. IF you think 12:6 is NOT about them fleeing because they have seen the abomination, perhaps you can come up with something better? If the abomination is NOT in chapter 11, perhaps you can show us where it really is?

Perhaps you need remedial Math: 101. When God speaks of days, as in 1260 days, that means this time period is going to be accurate to the exact day. If we subtract 1260 (the time of the fleeing as in 12:6) from 1260 (the length of the second half of the week) we get ZERO days. What does this mean? It means the abomination MUST TAKE PLACE immediately before 12:6. Not one day before, not one week before, not one month before, but SECONDS before. Therefore this fleeing is the EXACT FLEEING Jesus spoke about in Matt. 24.

In Rev. 11:2, that 42 months is going to be accurate to the very month, but perhaps not exactly to the day. That tells me that even at 11:2, and 11:3, John is VERY CLOSE to the exact midpoint and abomination. Again, the 1260 days (verse 3) must be accurate to the exact day. But they lay dead for 3 1/2 days. Therefore, they SHOW UP exactly 3 1/2 days before the abomination. It is beginning arithmetic. Lamad

The abomination is not setup until the Rev.12:7-9 verses occur. It's the section past Rev.12:7-9 that's about the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week".


Rev 12:13-14
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
(KJV)

Do you see that "from the face of the serpent" there? Do you see verse 13 about the dragon seeing he's cast to the earth, and then going after the symbolic woman to persecute? THAT's about the latter half of Daniel's "one week".

You can count can't you? That's a SECOND mention in that Rev.12 chapter about the woman fleeing. With the first one do you see anyone persecuting the woman, or her having to flee "from the face of the serpent"? No, those parameters are not their in the first mention at Rev.12:6!

Moreover, this fleeing here IS NOT A LITERAL FLEEING anyway!

Are you a Messianic too? You sound like it, struggling with treating symbology as literal, and literal things as symbology. That's who is busy today pushing the fleeing to the desert ideas today (not the mountains).


Here's what's meant by that fleeing in Rev.12...


Rev 12:15-16
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
(KJV)

Do floods of waters really come out one's mouth??? NO! of course not. Not even that serpent's mouth. It's a SYMBOL for something else... that comes out of his mouth.

Let's see, what does... come out one's mouth? tic-tock, tic-tock