The "Millenium Rule" SCRIPTURES ONLY thread

[PinSeeker]

there are not two physical resurrections.

Right. Good. If you had been more explicit in what you said, all of this could have been avoided.

I'm so glad we're friends.

Hmmm... not very convincing... LOL! Goodness gracious.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ewq1938]

that's pretty funny.

so you want to claim that where it says "out of HIS Kingdom" in Matt. 13:41-42 it actually means that Jesus plucked some random ne'er-do-wells from some random kingdom He'd just acquired the deed to and punished them?

Why insert "random" other than to practice mockery.

that's pretty good actually.

touche

completely unbiblical, but pretty resourceful.

nice shot, man.

Expected responses to solid biblical evidence.

 

[keithr]

your argument for Pre-Mil is like somebody having ...

I thought we were discussing whether or not there will be one resurrection or two resurrections, not the timing of when the first resurrection will occur relative to the Millenium.

there are not two physical resurrections.

Correct. The first resurrection (of Christians only) is a resurrection to a spiritual nature, not a physical nature.

1 Corinthians 15 (WEB):

(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.​

​

(50) Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.​

(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

 

[ewq1938]

I thought we were discussing whether or not there will be one resurrection or two resurrections, not the timing of when the first resurrection will occur relative to the Millenium.


Correct. The first resurrection (of Christians only) is a resurrection to a spiritual nature, not a physical nature.

It's still physical. The passage you quoted is about the physical resurrection of physically dead Christians.

Rev 20:4 is also about Christians that were killed by having their heads cut off, and how they live again in the first of two resurrections. The rest of the dead lived not until a thousand years after the first group of dead people lived again.

 

[M3n0r4h]

I thought we were discussing whether or not there will be one resurrection or two resurrections, not the timing of when the first resurrection will occur relative to the Millenium.


Correct. The first resurrection (of Christians only) is a resurrection to a spiritual nature, not a physical nature.

1 Corinthians 15 (WEB):

(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.​

​

(50) Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.​

(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

no.

 

[M3n0r4h]

The rest of the dead lived not until ...

... the first resurrection.

hmmm... that makes exactly zero sense.

 

[M3n0r4h]

The first resurrection (of Christians only) is a resurrection to a spiritual nature, not a physical nature.

and the first physical resurrection is the ONLY physical resurrection.

and takes place immediately after Christ's return and the end of the world.

that's funny, that's exactly what 1 Cor. 15:23-24 declares.

what a coincidence.

no thousand year period on this physical earth thereafter and no subsequent resurrection .... of any kind.

 

[ewq1938]

... the first resurrection.

hmmm... that makes exactly zero sense.

Of course not because that isn't what the bible tells us. The first resurrection is the first group of the dead to be resurrected. The rest of the dead aren't resurrected with the first group, but will live again after a thousand years. That proves two resurrections separated by a thousand years which proves Amill to be a false doctrine. The first known Amill didn't want Rev to be in the bible...I wonder why?? lol

 

[M3n0r4h]

The first resurrection is the first group of the dead to be resurrected. The rest of the dead aren't resurrected with the first group, but will live again after a thousand years.

look again:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
Rev. 20:5

it's very annoying that I've pointed this out many times now and you continue to ignore it and pretend it's not there, but the cool thing is that each time you make me re-post it, another brainwashed Pre-Mil, who's been lied to for many years by their pastors and church, wakes up to the actual Truth of the Bible.

Pre-Mil is a HUGE LIE.

That proves two resurrections separated by a thousand years which proves Amill to be a false doctrine.

jumped the gun there, didn't ya.

your proof collapsed with the mere posting of the verse in question.

ouch.

The first known Amill didn't want Rev to be in the bible...I wonder why?? lol

because it is used constantly by those who wish to do damage to the Truth of the scriptures.

it is a highly symbolic book of signs and symbols, just as it says it is in its KJV intro and just as Jesus declares it is in Rev. 1:1, and that makes it very easily twisted and distorted to suit the cause of those who wish to lead honest Christians astray.

 

[ElieG12]

Rev. 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while.
4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.
7 Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Maʹgog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. (...)

Anyone who reads the context realizes that the first resurrection occurs before the thousand years begin, because those resurrected have to be already alive to be kings and priests DURING the entire thousand years.

Let the dead bury their dead, said Jesus.

 

[ewq1938]

look again:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
Rev. 20:5

it's very annoying that I've pointed this out many times now and you continue to ignore it and pretend it's not there, but the cool thing is that each time you make me re-post it, another brainwashed Pre-Mil, who's been lied to for many years by their pastors and church, wakes up to the actual Truth of the Bible.

Maybe stop insulting people as "brainwshed"? You are misreading the verse. In no way is it saying the second resurrection is the first one.

Pre-Mil is a HUGE LIE.

No, Amill is. You can't even read verse 5 right.

jumped the gun there, didn't ya.

your proof collapsed with the mere posting of the verse in question.

ouch.

That happened to Amill. "the rest of the dead lived not until" proves Amill wrong because Amill denies two resurrections where Rev 20 presents two.

 

[M3n0r4h]

Maybe stop insulting people as "brainwshed"? You are misreading the verse. In no way is it saying the second resurrection is the first one.





No, Amill is. You can't even read verse 5 right.






That happened to Amill. "the rest of the dead lived not until" proves Amill wrong because Amill denies two resurrections where Rev 20 presents two.

you win.

 

[keithr]

It's still physical. The passage you quoted is about the physical resurrection of physically dead Christians.

Err, no! The passage I quoted said that we can't inherit God's Kingdom if we are flesh and blood (physical), that we will be changed and we will be resurrected with a spiritual body. That doesn't sound like a physical resurrection to me!

 

[ewq1938]

Err, no! The passage I quoted said that we can't inherit God's Kingdom

So it's not impossible to ENTER it, flesh cannot INHERIT it which is absolutely a different thing entirely.

if we are flesh and blood (physical), that we will be changed and we will be resurrected with a spiritual body.

The living are changed not resurrected.

That doesn't sound like a physical resurrection to me!

Because it isn't one. You have to be dead in order to be resurrected.

 

[keithr]

So it's not impossible to ENTER it, flesh cannot INHERIT it which is absolutely a different thing entirely.

Why the double negative? Are you deliberately trying to be confusing! Yes, entering and inheriting are different. Christians share in Jesus' inheritance of the Kingdom of God - Romans 8:16-17 (WEB):

(16) The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God;​

(17) and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.​

and Paul said in the verses I quoted, 1 Corinthians 15 (WEB):

(50) Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.​

(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.​

So I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with! As I said, "The first resurrection (of Christians only) is a resurrection to a spiritual nature, not a physical nature".

The living are changed not resurrected.

So what's your point? As Paul said, whether dead or alive "(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed". That's changed from a physical being to a spirit being.

Because it isn't one. You have to be dead in order to be resurrected.

You seem to be arguing that those who are raptured are not resurrected, but you shouldn't ignore that all the Christians that have died (quite a lot!) are resurrected, therefore the first resurrection (of Christians) is a resurrection to spirit beings not physical human beings.

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (WEB):

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

 

[ewq1938]

Are you deliberately trying to be confusing! Yes, entering and inheriting are different. Christians share in Jesus' inheritance of the Kingdom of God - Romans 8:16-17 (WEB):

Yet people think a human cannot enter the kingdom/heaven and cite a verse that only says one cannot inherit the kingdom.

So I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with! As I said, "The first resurrection (of Christians only) is a resurrection to a spiritual nature, not a physical nature".

That's wrong. The first res of Rev 20 is about dead Christians resurrecting physically. Any spiritual change they experienced happened before they were killed which is something Rev 20 does not address.

So what's your point? As Paul said, whether dead or alive "(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed". That's changed from a physical being to a spirit being.

No, it's a change from a mortal physical being to an immortal physical being. Christ's physical state after resurrection is the same result the change will result in.

You seem to be arguing that those who are raptured are not resurrected, but you shouldn't ignore that all the Christians that have died (quite a lot!) are resurrected, therefore the first resurrection (of Christians) is a resurrection to spirit beings not physical human beings.

You are confusing the rapture with the resurrection.

The resurrected are not raptured.

The raptured are not resurrected.

Or, in other words:

Only the dead are resurrected.

Only the living are raptured.

 

[keithr]

Yet people think a human cannot enter the kingdom/heaven and cite a verse that only says one cannot inherit the kingdom.

As Jesus taught us to pray in Matthew 6:10 (ISV):

(10) May your kingdom come. May your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.​

The Greek word that's translated as kingdom, basileia, means "reign", or as the Online Bible Greek Lexicon says, "not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom". God's kingdom/reign will be on the earth as well as in heaven, so people resurrected as humans and living on the earth will be in God's Kingdom. (As Jesus said, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth", Matthew 28:18.)

But only Christians who are resurrected as spirit beings can share in the rule of that Kingdom. As Paul said, "Don’t you know that we will judge angels?" (1 Corinthians 6:3); we cannot judge beings that are invisible to us and a higher form of being than us (Psalms 8:4-5, "what is man, ... For you have made him a little lower than the angels") unless we are changed to be higher than them in nature. Hence Paul wrote "flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable." Christians are certainly not resurrected as humans again, because we know what humans are, whereas John wrote, "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is" (1 John 3:2).

That's wrong. The first res of Rev 20 is about dead Christians resurrecting physically. Any spiritual change they experienced happened before they were killed which is something Rev 20 does not address.

It does not describe a resurrection to physical human beings. It does say, (6) "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years". For the second death to have no power over them it must mean that they have been resurrected with an immortal nature (immortal means that you can't possibly die). As Paul wrote, "The body is sown perishable; it is raised imperishable (1 Corinthians 15:42), meaning humans can die (perish), but Christians will be resurrected with a nature/body that cannot die (imperishable). And 1 Corinthians 15:54 (WEB):

(54) But when this perishable body will have become imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”​

Nobody is changed into a spitual being (similar to angels) before they die!

Christians will reign over the rest of mankind that do have a physical resurrection as humans to live on the earth again - Revelation 5:10 (MKJV):

(10) And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.​

No, it's a change from a mortal physical being to an immortal physical being. Christ's physical state after resurrection is the same result the change will result in.

That is never mentioned in the Bible. I recommend that you read 1 Corinthians 15:35-58. Here's a short extract:

(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.​

(45) So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.​

(46) However that which is spiritual isn’t first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual.​

(47) The first man is of the earth, made of dust. The second man is the Lord from heaven.​

(48) As is the one made of dust, such are those who are also made of dust; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.​

(49) As we have borne the image of those made of dust, let’s also bear the image of the heavenly.​

You are confusing the rapture with the resurrection.

No I am not!

The resurrected are not raptured.

Incorrect. 1 Thessalonians 4 (WEB):

(16) ... The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

So both the resurrected Christians and the alive Christians are caught up (raptured, snatched, seized) and transported to meet Jesus.

The raptured are not resurrected.

Correct. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (WEB):

(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

(53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

The dead Christains are resurrected ("raised incorruptible" - resurrected as immortal spirit beings) and the Christians alive at that time will be changed to be likewise immortal spirit beings. The resurrection of the dead Christians occur first, then the change of the living Christians, and all this happens in a tiny fraction of a second.

Or, in other words:

Only the dead are resurrected.

Only the living are raptured.

Close, but not quite correct! :)

 

[ewq1938]

Incorrect. 1 Thessalonians 4 (WEB):

(16) ... The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

So both the resurrected Christians and the alive Christians are caught up (raptured, snatched, seized) and transported to meet Jesus.

What you quoted doesn't support what you claim. It supports what I have said because the dead rise which is a ressurrection and verse 17 clearly addresses the living being caught up which is the rapture. Again, never confuse a resurrection for a rapture.

 

[keithr]

What you quoted doesn't support what you claim. It supports what I have said because the dead rise which is a ressurrection and verse 17 clearly addresses the living being caught up which is the rapture. Again, never confuse a resurrection for a rapture.

I was responding to your claim that "The resurrected are not raptured". My claim is that the resurrected (as spirit beings) Christians are caught up (raptured) at the same time along with the living Christians who are changed to be spirit beings. That is what I believe 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is saying. As Vincent's Word Studies says:

Together with them (ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς)​

Ἅμα, at the same time, referring to the living. We that are alive shall simultaneously or one and all (comp. Rom_3:12) be caught up. Σὺν αὐτοῖς along with them, i.e., the dead. Thus ἅμα is to be const. with shall be caught up. The A.V. and Rev. are inaccurate. These are the important words as related to the disquietude of the Thessalonians.​

John Darby says:

His voice calls the dead, and they come forth from the grave, and, the living being changed, all are caught up together.​

So the resurrected are also raptured. The order is:

1) Jesus descends from heaven to the earth (or to the air just above it).
2) The dead Christians are resurrected as spirit beings (on the earth).
3) The living Christians are changed to be spirit beings (still on the earth).
4) All of the now new creation of spirit beings are raptured (caught up, snatched) to join Jesus in the air. From then on they will forever be with Jesus.

The context of these verses is that Paul is reassuring Christians that those Christians who had died will not miss out when Christ returns for the Church. He says that we should not grieve for them, because if we believe that God resurrected Jesus then we should also believe that God will resurrect the dead Christians also. Paul then reveals what Jesus had directly told him concerning his return for the Church. He says that the living Christians "will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep" (dead Christians), but that all Christians will be raptured at the same time, that we will all join with Jesus at the same time.

 

[ewq1938]

I was responding to your claim that "The resurrected are not raptured". My claim is that the resurrected (as spirit beings) Christians are caught up (raptured) at the same time along with the living Christians who are changed to be spirit beings.

At the same time? How when it says:

1Th_4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


In other words the raptured ones meet with Christ last. The resurrected dead are with him first. How is that? Not by rapture because not only are all the dead in Christ already together (no gathered needed) but they are in heaven and come with Christ (1Th_4:14 )

That is what I believe 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is saying. As Vincent's Word Studies says:

Together with them (ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς)​

Ἅμα, at the same time, referring to the living. We that are alive shall simultaneously or one and all (comp. Rom_3:12) be caught up. Σὺν αὐτοῖς along with them, i.e., the dead. Thus ἅμα is to be const. with shall be caught up. The A.V. and Rev. are inaccurate. These are the important words as related to the disquietude of the Thessalonians.​

John Darby says:

His voice calls the dead, and they come forth from the grave, and, the living being changed, all are caught up together.​

So the resurrected are also raptured.

Nope. They are in heaven already. The living are raptured up to meet them (Jesus and the former dead) in the clouds.

The order is:

1) Jesus descends from heaven to the earth (or to the air just above it).
2) The dead Christians are resurrected as spirit beings (on the earth).
3) The living Christians are changed to be spirit beings (still on the earth).
4) All of the now new creation of spirit beings are raptured (caught up, snatched) to join Jesus in the air. From then on they will forever be with Jesus.

That violates everything found in 1Th_4:14-15

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The context of these verses is that Paul is reassuring Christians that those Christians who had died will not miss out when Christ returns for the Church. He says that we should not grieve for them, because if we believe that God resurrected Jesus then we should also believe that God will resurrect the dead Christians also. Paul then reveals what Jesus had directly told him concerning his return for the Church. He says that the living Christians "will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep" (dead Christians), but that all Christians will be raptured at the same time, that we will all join with Jesus at the same time.

The resurrected dead DESCEND out of heaven with Jesus.
Only the living will ASCEND up to meet THEM IN THE CLOUDS.

That is how the living cannot prevent or precede first to Christ.