The "Millenium Rule" SCRIPTURES ONLY thread

[keithr]

At the same time? How when it says:

1Th_4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

In other words the raptured ones meet with Christ last. The resurrected dead are with him first. How is that? Not by rapture because not only are all the dead in Christ already together (no gathered needed) but they are in heaven and come with Christ (1Th_4:14 )

That is not what it says! A better translation of 4:15 is that the living saints shall not "precede", or as the MKJV puts it, "shall not go before those who are asleep" (and the GNB says, "will not go ahead of those who have died"). Paul goes on to explain in the next two verses that the dead saints are resurrected first, then the living saints are changed, but then all the saints are caught up together at the same time, so that they all go together to join with Jesus. Bear in mind the context that Paul is telling them that they have no need to greive for the Christians who had died, and he explains that the dead saints will not miss out for we will all (those that have died and those alive at the time) be caught up to join with Jesus at the same time.

The dead saints are dead - in their graves, not in heaven. Jesus descends from heaven alone, then the dead saints are resurrected to life:

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

This is Jesus gathering his saints to be with him - John 14:2-3 (WEB):

(2) In my Father’s house are many homes. If it weren’t so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you.​

(3) If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.​

Jesus doesn't bring his saints with him when he comes to collect his saints!

Nope. They are in heaven already.

How can they be in heaven if they have not yet been resurrected? Jesus was not able to go to heaven before he was resurrected, and the saints are not greater than their master and head.

The living are raptured up to meet them (Jesus and the former dead) in the clouds.

But it says the living will be "caught up together with them" (the dead saints that have just been resurrected). Paul confirms this in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (WEB):

(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

There's no messing about! God's trumpet sounds and the resurrection of the dead saints and the changing of the alive saints all happens in the twinkling of an eye (about a thousandth of a second), then they are all caught up to be with Jesus.

That violates everything found in 1Th_4:14-15

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This means that just as God resurrected Jesus to life He will also resurrect to life those that "sleep in Jesus" and they will be with Jesus for his second advent (a later time; it's not referring to Jesus gathering his saints). Albert Barnes' Notes says,

it means that he will bring them from their graves, and will conduct them with him to glory, to be with him; compare notes, Joh_14:3. The declaration, as it seems to me, is designed to teach the general truth that the redeemed are so united with Christ that they shall share the same destiny as he does. As the head was raised, so will all the members be. As God brought Christ from the grave, so will he bring them; that is, his resurrection made it certain that they would rise. It is a great and universal truth that God will bring all from their graves who “sleep in Jesus;” or that they shall all rise. The apostle does not, therefore, refer so much to the time when this would occur - meaning that it would happen when the Lord Jesus should return - as to the fact that there was an established connection between him and his people, which made it certain that if they died united with him by faith, they would be as certainly brought from the grave as he was.​

The Cambridge Bible Notes says:

But the Apostle does not say here “will raise them with Jesus,” it is not the resurrection of the dead that is in question, but their relation to the Parousia, their place in Christ’s approaching kingdom. Therefore he says: “God will bring them with Him,”—they will not be forgotten or left behind when Jesus comes in triumph.​

​

The argument of this verse is condensed and somewhat subtle. When the Apostle begins, “If we believe” &c., we expect him to continue, “so we believe that those who died will, by the power of Christ’s resurrection, be raised to life, and will return to share His glory.” But in the eagerness of his inference St Paul passes from the certainty of conviction in the first member of the sentence (“If we believe”) to the certainty of the fact itself (“God will bring them”) in the second. In the same eagerness of anticipation he blends the final with the intermediate stage of restoration, making the resurrection of Jesus the pledge not of the believer’s resurrection simply (as in 2Co_4:14), but of his participation in Christ’s glorious advent, of which His resurrection is the prelude (comp. ch. 1Th_1:10, “to wait for His Son from the heavens, Whom He raised from the dead,” and note). The union between Christ and the Christian, as St Paul conceives it, is such that in whatever Christ the Head does or experiences, He carries the members of His body with Him. The Christian dead are “the dead in Christ” (1Th_4:16); they will therefore be in due course the risen and the glorified in Christ (2Th_1:12); comp. 2Ti_2:11, “If we died with Him, we shall also live with Him.” The point of the Apostle’s reasoning lies in the connection of the words “died and rose again.” Jesus has made a pathway through the grave, and by this passage His faithful, fallen asleep, still one with the dying, risen Jesus, will be conducted, to appear with Him at His return.​

The resurrected dead DESCEND out of heaven with Jesus.

It does not say that!

Only the living will ASCEND up to meet THEM IN THE CLOUDS.

It does not say that either! It says, "The dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord".

That is how the living cannot prevent or precede first to Christ.

Being caught up at the same time is not preceding.

 

[Phoneman777]

I have an idea. Please post scriptures that support millennial rule along with those that seem to say otherwise. PLEASE do NOT provide your own opinions or interpretations, ONLY the scriptures. Thank you in advance. I'll get it started with this.

Revelation 20:1-15 ESV​

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. ...

"...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" should be enough to convince anyone of a literal reign with Christ for a thousand years.

The debate should be over WHERE this reign will be: down here or up there.

The evidence if overwhelming that it's up there.

 

[Phoneman777]

In other words the raptured ones meet with Christ last. The resurrected dead are with him first. How is that? Not by rapture because not only are all the dead in Christ already together (no gathered needed) but they are in heaven and come with Christ (1Th_4:14 )

1 Thess. 4, especially verse 14, proves nothing of the kind, as detailed below:

Nope. They are in heaven already. The living are raptured up to meet them (Jesus and the former dead) in the clouds.

Was David in heaven? Peter says he was yet buried. Did Job expect to go to heaven at death? No, he said he'd wait in the grave "until Thy wrath be past" which when Jesus comes "in flaming fire taking vengeance" on sinners at the end of time.

Except for a few exceptions, no one goes to heaven before the Resurrection of the Just.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This is a Hebrew Chiasm, the following breakdown of which shows Paul supporting the theme of this passage - THE RESURRECTION - not your idea that the saints immediately go to heaven at death:

BREAKDOWN OF THE CHIASM:
A. For if we believe that Jesus died (death)
B. and rose again (resurrection)
A. even so them also which sleep in Jesus (death)
B. will God bring with Him (resurrection)

"Bring with Him" refers to when Jesus was brought forth from the tomb in resurrection - Paul's assurance to bereaved saints that their dead loved ones will be brought forth from the tomb "with Him" or "in the same manner as Him" in the Resurrection of the Just.

MAKING "BRING WITH HIM" REFER TO A COSMIC ROAD TRIP FROM HEAVEN TO EARTH DESTROYS THE HEBREW CHIASM, SOMETHING THAT IS COMMONLY DONE BY THOSE WHO MISINTERPRET SCRIPTURE, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO ESCHATOLOGY.

The resurrected dead DESCEND out of heaven with Jesus.

No, "bring with Him" refers to "brought forth from the tomb" - making "bring" refer to what you say destroys the Hebrew Chiasm and contradicts many other texts of Scripture which say the dead know nothing, praise nothing, accomplish nothing, etc.

Only the living will ASCEND up to meet THEM IN THE CLOUDS.

That is how the living cannot prevent or precede first to Christ.

"Prevent" simply means "go before"...which is what happens: Jesus descends, the dead saints rise with immortal bodies and ascend while the "alive and remain" watch - which is appropriate, seeing that dead saints in the sight of God are precious.

 

[Phoneman777]

To those who preach 1 Thessalonians 4:14 is proof the saints go straight to heaven at death, it's important to consider the following:

This passage is a Hebrew Chiasm - a well known Hebrew poetic literary method in which, not words, but ideas are rhymed. Psalms 33:6,9 is a well known example:

A. By the word of the Lord (God's Word)
B. were the heavens made (creation)
B. and all the host of them (creation)
A. by the breath of His mouth (God's Word)

A. For He spake (God's Word)
B. and it was done (creation)
A. He commanded (God's Word)
B. and it stood fast (creation)

The following 1 Thessalonians 4:14 Hebrew Chiasm breakdown shows Paul supporting the theme - the only theme- of his passage: the Resurrection of the Just:

A. For if we believe that Jesus died (death)
B. and rose again (resurrection)
A. even so them also which sleep in Jesus (death)
B. will God bring with Him (resurrection)

"Bring" refers to when Jesus was brought forth from the tomb in resurrection - Paul's assurance to bereaved saints that their dead loved ones will be brought forth from the tomb "with Him" or "in the same manner as Him" in the Resurrection of the Just.

MAKING "BRING WITH HIM" REFER TO A COSMIC ROAD TRIP FROM HEAVEN TO EARTH DESTROYS THE HEBREW CHIASM, SOMETHING THAT IS COMMONLY DONE BY THOSE WHO MISINTERPRET SCRIPTURE, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO ESCHATOLOGY.

 

[keithr]

The debate should be over WHERE this reign will be: down here or up there.

The evidence if overwhelming that it's up there.

Revelation 5:10 (KJV):

(10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.​

or (MKJV):

(10) And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.​

So during the Millenium the reign will be from heaven, but after that it will be from the New Jerusalem, which will be on the earth - Revelation 21:2-3 (WEB):

(2) And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband.​

(3) And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.​

 

[Phoneman777]

Revelation 5:10 (KJV):

(10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.​

or (MKJV):

(10) And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.​

Yes, after the 1,000 reign in heaven, when New Jerusalem comes down to a desolate Earth, Jesus resurrects the dead wicked and judges them before casting them into the fire that falls down from God and consumes them and the entire Earth, eradicating all traces of sin, before creating the New Earth upon which we'll reign for all eternity.

So during the Millenium the reign will be from heaven, but after that it will be from the New Jerusalem, which will be on the earth - Revelation 21:2-3 (WEB):

(2) And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband.​

(3) And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.​

New Jerusalem, beautiful as a bride (not referring to Christ's bride, the church) among the ruins of Earth which was destroyed at the Second Coming, comes down after our 1,000 year reign in it above.

As for Christ's bride, the church, Jesus had already come back for her 1,000 years before at His Second Coming and had taken her back to His where His Father is - Jerusalem which is above - as was the case with all Jewish bridegrooms who went to collect their brides after construction of the marriage chamber in their father's house was complete, in accordance with Jewish tradition...which means we're not staying down here among the bodies of the wicked that will blanket the Earth from one end to the other end when they dropped dead "at the brightness of His coming".

 

[ewq1938]

B. will God bring with Him (resurrection)

The bringing is what happens AFTER the resurrection when they become immortal. That is a descending type of rapture where the rapture of those alive on the Earth go upwards but they will be changed into immortals BEFORE the moving.

Dead in heaven resurrect to immortality, descend with Jesus to the clouds.
Living on Earth change into immortals and then ascend upwards to meet the resurrected dead and Jesus in the clouds.

 

[keithr]

Yes, after the 1,000 reign in heaven, when New Jerusalem comes down to a desolate Earth, Jesus resurrects the dead wicked and judges them before casting them into the fire that falls down from God and consumes them and the entire Earth, eradicating all traces of sin, before creating the New Earth upon which we'll reign for all eternity.

It makes no sense to resurrect people that you have already judged to be condemned to death. There's no point in restoring people to life to then immediately kill them! The dead are restored to life, through the merit of Christ's redeeming sacrifice, and their past sins are forgiven. This happens at the beginning of the 1,000 years reign, after the Great Tribulation. The resurrected will be restored back to perfection, along with the earth; they will have full knowledge of God and Jesus, with no deceptions from Satan who will be bound up during the 1,000 years, and they will be tested and judged at the end of the 1,000 years. Christians don't reign with Jesus for a 1,000 years to destroy the earth, making it desolate; it's a time of blessing and restoration - Acts 3 (WEB):

(19) “Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, so that there may come times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord,​

(20) and that he may send Christ Jesus, who was ordained for you before,​

(21) whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God spoke long ago by the mouth of his holy prophets.​

(24) Yes, and all the prophets from Samuel and those who followed after, as many as have spoken, they also told of these days.​

(25) You are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘In your offspring will all the families of the earth be blessed.’​

2 Peter 3:9 (WEB):

(9) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

As for Christ's bride, the church, Jesus had already come back for her 1,000 years before at His Second Coming and had taken her back to His where His Father is - Jerusalem which is above - as was the case with all Jewish bridegrooms who went to collect their brides after construction of the marriage chamber in their father's house was complete, in accordance with Jewish tradition...which means we're not staying down here among the bodies of the wicked that will blanket the Earth from one end to the other end when they dropped dead "at the brightness of His coming".

Who will they be reigning over for 1,000 years if everyone on the earth has been killed and the earth left desolate?

 

[ewq1938]

It makes no sense to resurrect people that you have already judged to be condemned to death. There's no point in restoring people to life to then immediately kill them!

It makes a huge amount of sense if you don't want to have false prophecies ie: the whole dying a second time thing. Agree with the rest of the post.

 

[keithr]

It makes a huge amount of sense if you don't want to have false prophecies ie: the whole dying a second time thing. Agree with the rest of the post.

False prohecy? Are you calling Jesus a liar when he said, John 3:16 (WEB):

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​

("perish" is translated from the Greek apollumi meaning 'to destroy fully'.)

And also Paul, who wrote, Romans 6:23 (WEB):

(23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

 

[ewq1938]

False prohecy?

Yes. The bible speaks of a second death which means some will be resurrected only to be killed again.

Are you calling Jesus a liar

No, are you?

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[keithr]

Yes. The bible speaks of a second death which means some will be resurrected only to be killed again.

I agree (except that they will live for up to 1,000 years before dying a second time). Perhaps I misunderstood your previous post. I thought that when you said "false prophecies ie: the whole dying a second time thing" that you were saying that the second death was a false prophecy. Perhaps it's an example of the famous expression, "Britain and America are two nations divided by a common language"!

 

[ewq1938]

I agree (except that they will live for up to 1,000 years before dying a second time).

No, they are resurrected and judged the same timeframe. In context it appears to be the same day.

 

[keithr]

No, they are resurrected and judged the same timeframe. In context it appears to be the same day.

2 Peter 3 (WEB):

(8) But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.​

(9) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

Isaiah 65:17-20 (WEB):

(17) “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be remembered, nor come into mind.​

(18) But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for, behold, I create Jerusalem to be a delight, and her people a joy.​

(19) I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and delight in my people; and the voice of weeping and the voice of crying will be heard in her no more.​

(20) “No more will there be an infant who only lives a few days, nor an old man who has not filled his days; for the child will die one hundred years old, and the sinner being one hundred years old will be accursed.​

I think this means that if a someone died age 100 years old, they will be considered just a child, and even sinners will live to 100 years old and older, whereas previously living to such old age was considered a reward from God, but in the Millennial Age being cut off at 100 years old would be seen as being cursed of God and cut down in his sins. People will be resurrected to live up to the whole length of the 1,000 years of restoration. As you quoted, "They were judged, each one according to his works" (Rev. 20:13), that is their works after they have been resurrected (for they have been redeemed from their sins of their former lives), and it makes no sense for them to be judged on just a single day's works. As quoted above, God "is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance".

 

[Phoneman777]

The bringing is what happens AFTER the resurrection when they become immortal. That is a descending type of rapture where the rapture of those alive on the Earth go upwards but they will be changed into immortals BEFORE the moving.

Dead in heaven resurrect to immortality, descend with Jesus to the clouds.
Living on Earth change into immortals and then ascend upwards to meet the resurrected dead and Jesus in the clouds.

See, your interpretation destroys the Hebrew Chiasm by making "bring" refer to a celestial roadtrip instead of to what if refers: being brought forth from the grave in like manner as Christ was brought forth.

(DEATH) For if we believe that Jesus DIED
(RESURRECTION) and ROSE again
(DEATH) even so them also which SLEEP in Jesus
(RESURRECTION) will God BRING with Him.

The Hebrew Chiasm demands that "BRING" must refer to "RESURRECTION", not a celestial road trip of dead saints in heaven to Earth.

I repeat: willful disregard of Hebrew Chiasms is why there's so many hermeneutic errors circulating, especially when it comes to eschatology.

 

[ewq1938]

See, your interpretation destroys the Hebrew Chiasm by making "bring" refer to a celestial roadtrip instead of to what if refers: being brought forth from the grave in like manner as Christ was brought forth.

For if we believe that Jesus DIED (DEATH)
and ROSE again (RESURRECTION)
even so them also which SLEEP in Jesus (DEATH)
will God BRING with Him (RESURRECTION - NOT A CELESTIAL ROAD TRIP)

G71
ἄγω
agō
ag'-o
A primary verb; properly to lead; by implication to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specifically) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce: - be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.
Total KJV occurrences: 71


Apparently you don't know what BRING means. That is a movement of people, not a resurrection.



A resurrection would take place before any BRINGING. It was also written in Greek not Hebrew, so not a Hebrew Chiasm.

 

[Phoneman777]

G71
ἄγω
agō
ag'-o
A primary verb; properly to lead; by implication to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specifically) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce: - be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.
Total KJV occurrences: 71
Apparently you don't know what BRING means. That is a movement of people, not a resurrection.

I took the trouble making two red highlights in your post so that hopefully after reading the first, you'll reconsider the second.

A resurrection would take place before any BRINGING.

Not if "resurrection" and "bring forth" from the grave means the same thing...which is absolutely the case.

It was also written in Greek not Hebrew, so not a Hebrew Chiasm.

It's really condescending for you to assume I need to be told this, seeing that I'm somewhat acquainted with Hebrew Chiastic Structure while you obviously haven't heard of it until now.

Rather, please do some research on it and how God inspired men of Hebrew mindsets informed by Old Testament Hebrew Chiastic Structure when contributing to almost all of the NT - and then maybe you'll understand why we need to leave them intact where we find them, instead of destroying them in order to set up false doctrine in their place.

 

[ewq1938]

I took the trouble making two red highlights in your post so that hopefully after reading the first, you'll reconsider the second.

Not if "resurrection" and "bring forth" from the grave means the same thing...which is absolutely the case.

If a resurrection was intended, a Greek word meaning that would have been used. Bring is not a resurrection but it can happen to the resurrected once they have been resurrected which is exactly the case where the resurrected dead will be brought with Christ to meet those raptured to the clouds where they all meet!

It's really condescending for you to assume I need to be told this, seeing that I'm somewhat acquainted with Hebrew Chiastic Structure while you obviously haven't heard of it until now.

It's really condescending for you to assume I "haven't heard of it until now" as I have read your posts where you post it ad-nauseam. Literally EVERYONE knows of this if they have read any of your posts. This verse is not an example of a Hebrew Chiasm (Chiasmus),
not in Hebrew, Greek or English.

 

[ewq1938]

I took the trouble making two red highlights in your post so that hopefully after reading the first, you'll reconsider the second.

Not if "resurrection" and "bring forth" from the grave means the same thing...which is absolutely the case.

Can you explain why the word (G71 AGO) is never used in reference to a resurrection in the scriptures if that is what it means? Bring in every verse it is found is what it means, to bring. Never is it a resurrection.

 

[Phoneman777]

It makes no sense to resurrect people that you have already judged to be condemned to death. There's no point in restoring people to life to then immediately kill them!

Sure it does, if we consider that the rewards of the wicked are determined before Jesus leaves the Most Holy place and comes back to Earth in glory - the NT "antitype" which meets the OT "type".

Then, since God rules by committee (1 Kings 22:19-22 KJV), the resurrected saints will have 1,000 years in heaven to review God's judgments (1 Corinthians 6:2-3 KJV), after which we'll all proclaim, "Just and true are Thy ways, Thou king of saints!" (Revelation 15:3 KJV) while the Earth lies in utter darkness and destruction.

Finally, New Jerusalem comes down to Earth and the wicked rise in the Resurrection of the Damned,
the life of each evildoer will flash before them showing how they resisted salvation until the bitter end,
in one accord the wicked including Satan will with bowed heads and bent knees confess their guilt,
and all will confess they deserve the fiery fate which is about to befall them -

- before Satan in one final desperate act of rebellion arouses these doomed multitidues to rush the walls of New Jerusalem before fire rains down and turns the entire planet into one seething, cleansing Lake of Fire. That's why the wicked have to take a 1,000 year nap after Jesus comes.