The Modern Gospel

[ChristisGod]

Error-

Your position appears to contain a misunderstanding of the biblical concept of grace and salvation.

Being Born Again is More Than a Sample of Grace:

The Bible teaches that being "born again" signifies a complete and transformative work of grace, not merely a sample. In John 3:3-5, Jesus tells Nicodemus, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again... no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." This indicates the necessity and completeness of the new birth for salvation.
Salvation is Not Purchased by Human Effort:

The idea that one must sell all or perform certain acts to achieve the full measure of grace contradicts the core biblical teaching that salvation is a gift of God’s grace through faith, not by works. Ephesians 2:8-9 states, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
The Parable of the Pearl of Great Price:

While the parable of the pearl of great price (Matthew 13:45-46) does illustrate the value of the kingdom of heaven, it should not be interpreted to mean that we can purchase grace. Instead, it signifies the supreme worth of the kingdom, for which one should be willing to forsake all earthly attachments. However, the entrance into this kingdom is still by grace, as evidenced by other scriptures.

Hearing Jesus' Voice:

It is commendable to seek to hear Jesus’ voice through scripture and the Holy Spirit. John 10:27 states, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me." This indicates an ongoing relationship with Christ, facilitated by the Holy Spirit, given freely to believers (Acts 2:38).
Apostolic and Historical Understanding of Grace:

The early church and apostolic teachings consistently emphasized salvation by grace through faith. For instance, in Acts 15:11, Peter declares, "We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." This predates the Reformation and reflects the original apostolic teaching.
Reformation and Enlightenment Contributions:

While the Reformation did emphasize "sola gratia" (grace alone) and "sola fide" (faith alone), these doctrines were based on a return to the original biblical texts and the teachings of the early church. This was not an introduction of new concepts but a reaffirmation of biblical truths that had been obscured over time.
In conclusion, the scriptural and historical evidence consistently affirms that being born again is a comprehensive work of God’s grace, salvation is a gift that cannot be earned, and the apostolic teaching upholds grace through faith as the foundation of the Christian life. Reformation theology, far from being a "johnny-come-lately" position, seeks to restore these original truths against later doctrinal distortions.

Beginning to understand why my OP is moved to the "Unorthodox section"
J.

The term “cheap grace” can be traced back to a book written by German theologian, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, called The Cost of Discipleship, published in 1937. In that book, Bonhoeffer defined “cheap grace” as “the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ.” Notice what is emphasized in Bonhoeffer’s definition of cheap grace and what is de-emphasized. The emphasis is on the benefits of Christianity without the costs involved; hence, the adjective cheap to describe it.

Wrong a disciple is the starting point for a believer. What is a disciple you ask ?

Matthew 28:16-20
Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Luke 6:40
A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and trainingin righteousness,

Hebrews 12:11
For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Ephesians 6:4
Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

Matthew 28:20
didaskó: to teach
Original Word: διδάσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: didaskó
Phonetic Spelling: (did-as'-ko)
Definition: to teach
Usage: I teach, direct, admonish.
1321 didáskō (from daō, "learn") – to teach (literally, "cause to learn"); instruct, impart knowledge (disseminate information).

In the NT, 1321 /didáskō ("teach") nearly always refers to teaching the Scriptures (the written Word of God). The key role of teaching Scripture is shown by its great frequency in the NT, and the variety of word-forms (cognates).

[This includes three noun-forms, two adjectival forms, and one verb, totaling about 220 occurrences in the NT)

mathéteuó: to be a disciple, to make a disciple
Original Word: μαθητεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: mathéteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (math-ayt-yoo'-o)
Definition: to be a disciple, to make a disciple
Usage: I make a disciple of, train in discipleship; pass: I am trained, discipled, instructed.
HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 3100 mathēteúō (from 3101 /mathētḗs, "disciple") – to disciple, i.e. helping someone to progressively learn the Word of God to become a matured, growing disciple (literally, "a learner," a true Christ-follower); to train (develop) in the truths of Scripture and the lifestyle required, i.e. helping a believer learn to be a disciple of Christ in belief and practice. See 3101 (mathētēs).

1. A Disciple puts Jesus first in all things (Mark 8:34–38). The disciple of Christ needs to be set apart from the world. Our focus should be on our Lord and how to please Him in every area of our lives. We must put off self-centeredness and put on Christ-centeredness.

2. A Disciple follows Jesus’ teachings (John 8:31–32). We must be obedient children and doers of the Word (James 1:22). Obedience is the supreme test of faith in God (1 Samuel 28:18). Jesus said, “Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me” (John 14:21). Jesus is also the perfect example of obedience as He lived a life on earth of complete obedience to the Father even to the point of death (Philippians 2:6–8).

3. A Disciple Bears fruit (John 15:5–8). Loves others (John 13:34–35). Christian disciples should live fruitful lives, displaying the fruit of the Spirit, good works, and “the peaceful fruit of righteousness” (Hebrews 12:11). Technically, producing fruit is not our job; our job is to abide in Christ, and the fruit will come (John 15:1–8). God’s goal is that we produce “much fruit” (verse 8), as Christ uses us to bring about blessed change in a broken, fallen world. Love of other believers is an evidence of our being a member of God’s family (1 John 3:10). Love is described in 1 Corinthians 13:1–13. These verses show us that love is not an emotion; it is action. In order to love, we must be doing something and involved in the process. One way to show love is to think more highly of others than of ourselves and to look out for their interests (Philippians 2:3–4). Another way to show love is to be patient and not take offense at every provocation (1 Peter 4:8).

4. A Disciple becomes a disciple maker(Matthew 28:18–20). Disciples multiply. One of the last things Jesus said to His disciples before His ascension was the command to “go and make disciples of all nations” (Matthew 28:19). This involves evangelism—sharing the gospel and urging people to repent and believe in Christ—but it also involves discipleship. Christians should be actively engaged in training people who will in turn train others. That’s the pattern we see in Jesus’ ministry: He trained eleven men who spent the rest of their lives as disciple-makers, training others to also become disciple-makers, and so on. We see this pattern also in 2 Timothy 2:2. Got?

A disciple is one who puts Jesus first, obeys the Lord, produces good fruit, loves others, and makes more disciples.

 

[ChristisGod]

continued: Jesus said Bear much fruit and prove to be My disciple !

God created plants to fruit and propagate themselves. Jesus cursed the fig tree. Why? It was green but did not bear fruit so He cursed the tree. A good tree brings forth good fruit. You will know them by their fruits. God is life and created man and plants to bring forth life. I came that you might have life and life abundantly. A fruitful life is Gods design for us. The Fruit of the Spirit in us is our evidence we have life (the Spiritual life, born of the Spirit) which God created us for His good works that He prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. We are Gods workmanship created for that purpose. ( Ephesians 2:8-10 )

The parable of the sower in which the good soil produces much fruit. God did not create man, animals and plants to look good but to multiply, bear fruit, procreate. They(we) are agents of life to bring forth fruit, life. We are created in Gods image to bring forth life, to be fruitful and multiply.

It’s the nature of God to send, distribute, equip, empower and to set free. Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit to accomplish this in our life. Jesus had to leave to give us the Holy Spirit. Jesus greatest thing He did as a leader of men was to leave. He removed Himself to give us His Spirit. And the result was to Be fruitful!

Sin brought forth death, unfruitfulness, thorns, thistles, labor etc….

Gods truth like water is designed to bring forth life/fruit. Truth is not an end to itself but the foundation for life. Fruit brings glory to God. Salvation is not the end game either but fruit in your life, good works. Faith without works/fruit is dead. James 2:17

Philippians 1:9-11
And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ; 11 having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

Titus 3:14
And our people must also learn to devote themselves to good works in order to meet the pressing needs of others, so that they will not be unfruitful.

James 3:18
Peacemakers who sow in peace reap the fruit of righteousness.

John 15:8
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Psalm 1:2-3
But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
3 He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water,
Which yields its fruit in its season
And its leaf does not wither;
And in whatever he does, he prospers.

Ezekiel 47:12
Along both banks of the river, fruit trees of all kinds will grow. Their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. Each month they will bear fruit, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will be used for food and their leaves for healing.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Truth is from God and lies are from satan. This is the cosmic battle but the ultimate reality of the battle is that one leads to Life and the other leads to death.

The Parable of the Talents Matthew 25

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

The term “cheap grace” can be traced back to a book written by German theologian,Dietrich Bonhoeffer, called The Cost of Discipleship, published in 1937. In that book, Bonhoeffer defined “cheap grace” as “the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ.” Notice what is emphasized in Bonhoeffer’s definition of cheap grace and what is de-emphasized. The emphasis is on the benefits of Christianity without the costs involved; hence, the adjective cheap to describe it.

 

[Hepzibah]

Don't struggle sister, but be at rest....and just receive. The carnal mind is restless and is a serpentine labyrinth which purpose is just to get us LOST in the weeds when it comes to spiritual things. Read Romans 4 about imputed righteousness prayerfully with eyes of faith and understand where in v17 it says that "God calleth those things which be not as though they were." It's by FAITH, not by sight. All things HAVE been put under the feet of Jesus even though we do not yet SEE all things put under. The carnal mind can't receive this, but it must be received in spirit with the mind of Christ.

A carnal person preaches holiness sister??

It is the carnal who preach up sin and being 'covered'.

Anyway, you don't know what Christ has led me to do, do you. Someone has to study church history and theology.

 

[Episkopos]

Error-

Your position appears to contain a misunderstanding of the biblical concept of grace and salvation.

My position harmonizes what Jesus says with what Jesus says. Luther would disagree.

Being Born Again is More Than a Sample of Grace:

The Bible teaches that being "born again" signifies a complete and transformative work of grace, not merely a sample. In John 3:3-5, Jesus tells Nicodemus, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again... no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." This indicates the necessity and completeness of the new birth for salvation.
Salvation is Not Purchased by Human Effort:

The devil wants you to think that seeking God falls into the category of vain human effort. What you are confusing effort with is the antidote to spiritual laziness...the sluggard of Ecclesiastes. Jesus says to ask (human effort?), seek (humans effort?) and knock (strenuous human effort?). Before you knock the gospel I would ask you just how lazy a person would have to be to think of knocking on a spiritual door as too much physical effort? Selling all? (human effort?) How lazy can a person be who things selling all is an arduous human work.

No, what you espouse is an activated disobedience to God and His will. Oh yes...in the name of grace! Are we to called to disobey God by permissiveness through beliefs?

The idea that one must sell all

Read the bible.

or perform certain acts

Wrong side-winding and twisting of meaning. A slither, really.

to achieve

We don't achieve grace....we empty ourselves in order to be filled.

the full measure of grace contradicts the core biblical teaching that salvation is a gift of God’s grace through faith, not by works.

Confusion. The full measure of grace is attested to by the miraculous walk of saints. Those that are holy IN Christ. You are confusing "free" as in freedom with a freebie. Your level of religiosity betrays a very carnal impulse to get as many freebies...as in freeloading...as possible. Does God like freeloaders? But it costs us everything to gain the kingdom. The reason why you deny the higher walk is that you are only interested in what you can have for nothing. False merit. Does God encourage falsehood?

Ephesians 2:8-9 states, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."

The miraculous power of God cannot be attained by human effort. Holiness is never achieved by a constant improvement into it. So your argument defeats itself. Being miraculously translated in to the kingdom walk in the Spirit??? How do you suppose you could personally know this walk? We already know the answer to that. It takes faith. Human religious certainty keeps one lazy and deceived.

The Parable of the Pearl of Great Price:

While the parable of the pearl of great price (Matthew 13:45-46) does illustrate the value of the kingdom of heaven, it should not be interpreted to mean that we can purchase grace. Instead, it signifies the supreme worth of the kingdom, for which one should be willing to forsake all earthly attachments. However, the entrance into this kingdom is still by grace, as evidenced by other scriptures.

The cost is the cost. How can you obscure a plain teaching? You just don't want the truth, looking for justification in your present state. The parable is about the comparative value of temporal things to eternal things. To get eternal things we must forego on everything we think is valuable in our temporal existence. This idea is so far beyond a carnal understanding... that you HAVE TO disagree! ;)

Hearing Jesus' Voice:

It is commendable to seek to hear Jesus’ voice through scripture and the Holy Spirit. John 10:27 states, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me." This indicates an ongoing relationship with Christ, facilitated by the Holy Spirit, given freely to believers (Acts 2:38).

You read the bible. But the bible speaks of real things.

Apostolic and Historical Understanding of Grace:

The early church and apostolic teachings consistently emphasized salvation by grace through faith. For instance, in Acts 15:11, Peter declares, "We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." This predates the Reformation and reflects the original apostolic teaching.
Reformation and Enlightenment Contributions:

While the Reformation did emphasize "sola gratia" (grace alone) and "sola fide" (faith alone), these doctrines were based on a return to the original biblical texts and the teachings of the early church. This was not an introduction of new concepts but a reaffirmation of biblical truths that had been obscured over time.
In conclusion, the scriptural and historical evidence consistently affirms that being born again is a comprehensive work of God’s grace, salvation is a gift that cannot be earned, and the apostolic teaching upholds grace through faith as the foundation of the Christian life. Reformation theology, far from being a "johnny-come-lately" position, seeks to restore these original truths against later doctrinal distortions.

Beginning to understand why my OP is moved to the "Unorthodox section"
J.

Maybe in the "superficial section". If God doesn't translate you into the same walk that Jesus walked in...it ain't faith yet.

Faith moves mountains. Grace gives you the power to walk as Jesus walked. Grace is miraculous. Faith is the key into eternal things as God sees fit. It is His good pleasure to give the kingdom to the freeloaders? NO, to the faithful ones.

 

[Johann]

A carnal person preaches holiness sister??

It is the carnal who preach up sin and being 'covered'.

Anyway, you don't know what Christ has led me to do, do you. Someone has to study church history and theology.

You are not alone in your sentiments. References to Reformed theology and early church history often evoke a strong response among many in this context. Remain steadfast in Christ Jesus.
J.

 

[ChristisGod]

You are not alone in your sentiments. References to Reformed theology and early church history often evoke a strong response among many in this context. Remain steadfast in Christ Jesus.
J.

yes most calvinists have a cheap grace mentality and continue in sin that grace may abound. The worse they sin as sinners the greater is Gods grace to them. They espouse sin not holiness and righteousness, obedience, being a disciple, counting the cost, denying themselves taking up their cross daily to follow Jesus. Its the self life, not the selfless life Christ demands.

 

[Episkopos]

You are not alone in your sentiments. References to Reformed theology and early church history often evoke a strong response among many in this context. Remain steadfast in Christ Jesus.
J.

Remain steadfast in humanistic reformist ideology!

 

[ChristisGod]

Remain steadfast in humanistic reformist ideology!

yep you nailed it. Praise Jesus I came out of it.

 

[Johann]

My position harmonizes what Jesus says with what Jesus says. Luther would disagree.


Are you suggesting that personal experiences and divine invitations are normative for you, and that you criticize those who rely solely on scripture without such experiences or visitations?


Read the bible.


Wrong side-winding and twisting of meaning. A slither, really.


We don't achieve grace....we empty ourselves in order to be filled.


Confusion. The full measure of grace is attested to by the miraculous walk of saints. Those that are holy IN Christ. You are confusing "free" as in freedom with a freebie. Your level of religiosity betrays a very carnal impulse to get as many freebies...as in freeloading...as possible. Does God like freeloaders? But it costs us everything to gain the kingdom. The reason why you deny the higher walk is that you are only interested in what you can have for nothing. False merit. Does God encourage falsehood?

The miraculous power of God cannot be attained by human effort. Holiness is never achieved by a constant improvement into it. So your argument defeats itself. Being miraculously translated in to the kingdom walk in the Spirit??? How do you suppose you could personally know this walk? We already know the answer to that. It takes faith. Human religious certainty keeps one lazy and deceived.




The cost is the cost. How can you obscure a plain teaching? You just don't want the truth, looking for justification in your present state. The parable is about the comparative value of temporal things to eternal things. To get eternal things we must forego on everything we think is valuable in our temporal existence. This idea is so far beyond a carnal understanding... that you HAVE TO disagree! ;)

You read the bible. But the bible speaks of real things.


Maybe in the "superficial section". If God doesn't translate you into the same walk that Jesus walked in...it ain't faith yet.

Are you suggesting that personal experiences and divine invitations are normative for you, and that you criticize those who rely solely on scripture without such experiences or visitations?

Scripture emphasizes the importance and sufficiency of God's Word. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 states, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." This passage highlights that Scripture alone is sufficient for equipping believers for all aspects of their faith and practice.

Furthermore, the apostle Paul warns against relying too heavily on subjective experiences in Galatians 1:8, where he says, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!" This suggests that the message of the gospel, as revealed in Scripture, should take precedence over any personal experiences or purported divine visitations.

 

[ChristisGod]

Are you suggesting that personal experiences and divine invitations are normative for you, and that you criticize those who rely solely on scripture without such experiences or visitations?

Scripture emphasizes the importance and sufficiency of God's Word. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 states, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." This passage highlights that Scripture alone is sufficient for equipping believers for all aspects of their faith and practice.

Furthermore, the apostle Paul warns against relying too heavily on subjective experiences in Galatians 1:8, where he says, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!" This suggests that the message of the gospel, as revealed in Scripture, should take precedence over any personal experiences or purported divine visitations.

the irony is you do not rely on scripture but on the teachings of men you quote in most every post you cut n paste. They are the thoughts and teachings of men, not God.

 

[Lizbeth]

Error-

Your position appears to contain a misunderstanding of the biblical concept of grace and salvation.

Being Born Again is More Than a Sample of Grace:

The Bible teaches that being "born again" signifies a complete and transformative work of grace, not merely a sample. In John 3:3-5, Jesus tells Nicodemus, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again... no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." This indicates the necessity and completeness of the new birth for salvation.
Salvation is Not Purchased by Human Effort:

The idea that one must sell all or perform certain acts to achieve the full measure of grace contradicts the core biblical teaching that salvation is a gift of God’s grace through faith, not by works. Ephesians 2:8-9 states, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
The Parable of the Pearl of Great Price:

While the parable of the pearl of great price (Matthew 13:45-46) does illustrate the value of the kingdom of heaven, it should not be interpreted to mean that we can purchase grace. Instead, it signifies the supreme worth of the kingdom, for which one should be willing to forsake all earthly attachments. However, the entrance into this kingdom is still by grace, as evidenced by other scriptures.

Hearing Jesus' Voice:

It is commendable to seek to hear Jesus’ voice through scripture and the Holy Spirit. John 10:27 states, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me." This indicates an ongoing relationship with Christ, facilitated by the Holy Spirit, given freely to believers (Acts 2:38).
Apostolic and Historical Understanding of Grace:

The early church and apostolic teachings consistently emphasized salvation by grace through faith. For instance, in Acts 15:11, Peter declares, "We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." This predates the Reformation and reflects the original apostolic teaching.
Reformation and Enlightenment Contributions:

While the Reformation did emphasize "sola gratia" (grace alone) and "sola fide" (faith alone), these doctrines were based on a return to the original biblical texts and the teachings of the early church. This was not an introduction of new concepts but a reaffirmation of biblical truths that had been obscured over time.
In conclusion, the scriptural and historical evidence consistently affirms that being born again is a comprehensive work of God’s grace, salvation is a gift that cannot be earned, and the apostolic teaching upholds grace through faith as the foundation of the Christian life. Reformation theology, far from being a "johnny-come-lately" position, seeks to restore these original truths against later doctrinal distortions.

Beginning to understand why my OP is moved to the "Unorthodox section"
J.

I don't like it being called a "sample" either - Epi is too literal and compartmentalized in his thinking. The bible calls it the "earnest, guaranteeing what is to come". The increase springs up from what we have already received, but at the same time it gets poured out from heaven ( who can limit the spiritual realm to a physical location? who can say lo it is here or lo there?).....righteousness looks down from heaven and peace looks up from earth and they kiss each other, says the Psalm The fountains of the deep sprang up at the same time as it rained down....it is deep calling unto deep.

The earnest of the spirit is like betrothal.....which guaranteed the coming marriage because the betrothal was just as binding as the marriage. It was as good as being married, and only awaited the consummation/union. So "sample" seems to fall short.

 

[Lizbeth]

A carnal person preaches holiness sister??

It is the carnal who preach up sin and being 'covered'.

Anyway, you don't know what Christ has led me to do, do you. Someone has to study church history and theology.

Sister I'm not calling anyone carnal....I dont' know anything about you......I'm saying the carnal mind (which we all have and is useful for earthly things) can't perceive the things of the spirit. If we are trying too hard struggling and trying to "figure things out" rather than just "receiving" them by the Spirit it is difficult to receive. We need to be at rest and relying on the Spirit not the carnal mind....the carnal mind is called enmity with God because it can lead astray of truth which can only be received/perceived in spirit....the mind of Christ is a spiritual mind, not carnal/natural.

You were talking about struggling to understand imputed righteousness and I was just trying to help you with that. Romans 4...don't struggle so hard with it, but look to the Lord and wait on Him for the understanding to come from Him.

 

[ChristisGod]

I don't like it being called a "sample" either - Epi is too literal and compartmentalized in his thinking. The bible calls it the "earnest, guaranteeing what is to come". The increase springs up from what we have already received, but at the same time it gets poured out from heaven ( who can limit the spiritual realm to a physical location? who can say lo it is here or lo there?).....righteousness looks down from heaven and peace looks up from earth and they kiss each other, says the Psalm The fountains of the deep sprang up at the same time as it rained down....it is deep calling unto deep.

The earnest of the spirit is like betrothal.....which guaranteed the coming marriage because the betrothal was just as binding as the marriage. It was as good as being married, and only awaited the consummation/union. So "sample" seems to fall short.

Jesus and The Apostles in their teachings reveal the Father, Son and Holy Spirit working together in the believers life. They are distinct Persons within the One God. Scripture declares the believer is the Temple of God and that the Holy Spirit dwells in us just like God dwelled in the OT Temple.

John 15:26-27
26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.


John 16:5-8
"But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, Where are You going?' 6"But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go,I will send Him to you. 8"And He, when He comes, will convictthe world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;


John 16:13-15
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15"All things that the Fatherhas are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Matthew 3:16-17
16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is mybeloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

Below we see the One Name singular and the Plurality of Persons that one is to be baptized in as a disciple .

Matt 28:19-20
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Fatherand the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. "
Now below Paul will lay out our triune God below in these passages.


Rom 8:9-11
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 8:14-17
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellowheirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Rom 8:26-36
26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 14:17-18
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.

1 Cor 2:10-16
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Cor 12:3-6
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[Johann]

Remain steadfast in humanistic reformist ideology!

Clear as day you are ignorant-not only do you espouse a strange gospel with "new" ideologies outside of what stands written--

Reformers and Early Church Fathers
Reformers' Focus on Scripture:

The Reformers, such as Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others, emphasized "sola scriptura," which means "Scripture alone." This principle asserts that the Bible is the ultimate authority in matters of faith and practice. This is not a humanistic ideology but a return to the foundational teachings of Christianity. As 2 Timothy 3:16-17 states, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
Reformers' Emphasis on Grace:

The Reformers also highlighted "sola gratia" (grace alone) and "sola fide" (faith alone), stressing that salvation is a gift from God, not earned by human effort. Ephesians 2:8-9 affirms this: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." This reliance on God's grace rather than human achievement is the antithesis of humanistic thinking.
Early Church Fathers' Devotion to Orthodoxy:

The early church fathers, including figures like Augustine, Athanasius, and Irenaeus, were dedicated to preserving and defending the apostolic faith against heresies. They articulated key doctrines of the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and salvation by grace through faith. For instance, Augustine wrote extensively on the necessity of grace, as seen in his work "Confessions" and "The City of God." These teachings are deeply rooted in Scripture and align with passages like Romans 3:24, "and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
Refuting Humanistic Ideology:

Humanism, particularly in the context of the Renaissance and Enlightenment, often emphasized human reason and individualism over divine revelation. In contrast, both the Reformers and early church fathers centered their theology on divine revelation and the authority of Scripture. Romans 1:16-17 underscores the divine power in the gospel: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes."

In correcting the notion that the Reformers and early church fathers held humanistic ideologies, it is essential to recognize their profound commitment to scriptural authority and divine grace. Their teachings and writings were deeply rooted in the belief that salvation and truth come from God, not from human wisdom or efforts. Therefore, characterizing their theological positions as humanistic misrepresents their true intent and contributions to Christian doctrine.

You might want to try again, getting YOUR own brand of gospel right-Epi's gospel, not the gospel of Paul.

J.

 

[ChristisGod]

Clear as day you are ignorant-not only do you espouse a strange gospel with "new" ideologies outside of what stands written--

Reformers and Early Church Fathers
Reformers' Focus on Scripture:

The Reformers, such as Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others, emphasized "sola scriptura," which means "Scripture alone." This principle asserts that the Bible is the ultimate authority in matters of faith and practice. This is not a humanistic ideology but a return to the foundational teachings of Christianity. As 2 Timothy 3:16-17 states, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
Reformers' Emphasis on Grace:

The Reformers also highlighted "sola gratia" (grace alone) and "sola fide" (faith alone), stressing that salvation is a gift from God, not earned by human effort. Ephesians 2:8-9 affirms this: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." This reliance on God's grace rather than human achievement is the antithesis of humanistic thinking.
Early Church Fathers' Devotion to Orthodoxy:

The early church fathers, including figures like Augustine, Athanasius, and Irenaeus, were dedicated to preserving and defending the apostolic faith against heresies. They articulated key doctrines of the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and salvation by grace through faith. For instance, Augustine wrote extensively on the necessity of grace, as seen in his work "Confessions" and "The City of God." These teachings are deeply rooted in Scripture and align with passages like Romans 3:24, "and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
Refuting Humanistic Ideology:

Humanism, particularly in the context of the Renaissance and Enlightenment, often emphasized human reason and individualism over divine revelation. In contrast, both the Reformers and early church fathers centered their theology on divine revelation and the authority of Scripture. Romans 1:16-17 underscores the divine power in the gospel: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes."

In correcting the notion that the Reformers and early church fathers held humanistic ideologies, it is essential to recognize their profound commitment to scriptural authority and divine grace. Their teachings and writings were deeply rooted in the belief that salvation and truth come from God, not from human wisdom or efforts. Therefore, characterizing their theological positions as humanistic misrepresents their true intent and contributions to Christian doctrine.

You might want to try again, getting YOUR own brand of gospel right-Epi's gospel, not the gospel of Paul.

J.

another cut and paste declaring the gnostics ( augustine,calvin, luther ) taught truth- they all taught heresy mixing paganism, greek philosophy, platonism and gnosticism with christianity. you cannot discern truth from error since you have fallen for the poisonous flower of deception called TULIP.

 

[Lizbeth]

Jesus and The Apostles in their teachings reveal the Father, Son and Holy Spirit working together in the believers life. They are distinct Persons within the One God. Scripture declares the believer is the Temple of God and that the Holy Spirit dwells in us just like God dwelled in the OT Temple.

John 15:26-27
26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.


John 16:5-8
"But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, Where are You going?' 6"But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go,I will send Him to you. 8"And He, when He comes, will convictthe world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;


John 16:13-15
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15"All things that the Fatherhas are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Matthew 3:16-17
16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is mybeloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

Below we see the One Name singular and the Plurality of Persons that one is to be baptized in as a disciple .

Matt 28:19-20
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Fatherand the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. "
Now below Paul will lay out our triune God below in these passages.


Rom 8:9-11
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 8:14-17
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellowheirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Rom 8:26-36
26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 14:17-18
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.

1 Cor 2:10-16
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Cor 12:3-6
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I just don't know how "distinct" they are though. The bible says God is ONE. Jesus had to go back to heaven in order for HIS Spirit to be given to US. (Wow, that is something to contemplate...unspeakable gift.) Anyhow it's against the rules to talk about "that topic" on this forum so we better leave it there. :)

 

[Hepzibah]

Sister I'm not calling anyone carnal......I'm saying the carnal mind (which we all have and is useful for earthly things) can't perceive the things of the spirit. If we are trying too hard struggling and trying to "figure things out" rather than just "receiving" them by the Spirit it is difficult to receive. We need to be at rest and relying on the Spirit not the carnal mind....the carnal mind is called enmity with God because it can lead astray of truth which can only be received/perceived in spirit....the mind of Christ is a spiritual mind, not carnal/natural.

God gave us brains to use - sanctified ones of course, in accordance with the level at which we have been blessed. There is also the issue of damage done to the brain due to abuse of drugs alcohol and highly processed food which we need to heal with lifestyle changes. That does not mean sitting waiting for God to heal it for us.

The carnal mind is not the brain. It is seeing things through 'fleshy eyes' and not 'spiritual eyes' or in accordance with the leading of the Spirit which are to be taken captive.

This does not mean that we are not to think. You are confusing things.

 

[ChristisGod]

I just don't know how "distinct" they are though. The bible says God is ONE. Jesus had to go back to heaven in order for HIS Spirit to be given to US. (Wow, that is something to contemplate...unspeakable gift.) Anyhow it's against the rules to talk about "that topic" on this forum so we better leave it there. :)

The Bible also says the Two ( man and woman ) become One flesh. That all believers are the One body of Christ. That there is One Baptism but we know there is the spirit baptism and water baptism. :)

 

[Lizbeth]

The Bible also says the Two ( man and woman ) become One flesh. That all believers are the One body of Christ. That there is One Baptism but we know there is the spirit baptism and water baptism. :)

ok yes, true, I see your point. Thanks. Nice way to get that under the radar. :cool:

 

[Johann]

the gnostics ( augustine,calvin, luther ) taught truth- they all taught heresy mixing paganism, greek philosophy, platonism and gnosticism with christianity. you cannot discern truth from error since you have fallen for the poisonous flower of deception called TULIP.

Guess Mike has excommunicated you since you are espousing Gnosticism.
It appears there is a significant misunderstanding regarding the theological positions and contributions of Augustine, Calvin, and Luther. Let's address these points accurately using historical facts and scriptural references.

Addressing the Misunderstanding
Augustine, Calvin, and Luther were not Gnostics: [you are]

Gnosticism is a heretical movement that emerged in the early Christian centuries, characterized by its dualistic worldview and the belief that salvation comes through esoteric knowledge. Augustine, Calvin, and Luther vehemently opposed such ideas.

Augustine wrote extensively against Gnostic teachings. For example, in his work "Against the Heresies," he refutes Gnostic dualism and emphasizes the goodness of creation and the importance of Christ's incarnation.

Their Teachings Were Rooted in Scripture:

Augustine: Known for his works such as "Confessions" and "The City of God," Augustine's theology centered on the grace of God, human sinfulness, and the necessity of divine intervention for salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 was central to his teachings: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."

Calvin: In his "Institutes of the Christian Religion," Calvin systematically expounded on biblical doctrines, emphasizing God's sovereignty, predestination, and the sufficiency of Scripture. Romans 9:15-16 reflects his teachings on God's sovereign choice: "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy."

Luther: Martin Luther's key contribution was the principle of "sola scriptura" (Scripture alone) and "sola fide" (faith alone). His 95 Theses criticized the Catholic Church's practices and called for a return to biblical teachings. Galatians 3:11, "Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because 'the righteous will live by faith,'" was pivotal in his theology.
Refuting the Claim of Mixing Paganism, Greek Philosophy, Platonism, and Gnosticism:

While Augustine, Calvin, and Luther were influenced by their intellectual contexts, their primary source was always Scripture. They used philosophical tools to articulate and defend biblical truths, not to replace or distort them.
For example, Augustine's use of Platonic thought was to explain Christian doctrines more clearly, not to mix paganism with Christianity. His focus remained on biblical teachings, as seen in his reflections on the Psalms and his expositions of Paul's letters.

Augustine, Calvin, and Luther were not Gnostics but staunch defenders of Christian orthodoxy whose teachings were deeply rooted in Scripture. They did not mix Christianity with paganism, Greek philosophy, Platonism, or Gnosticism. Instead, they utilized philosophical concepts to better explain and defend biblical doctrines.

Glad you are excommunicated since I would have done the same [excommunicating you] if I was a pastor of God's flock.