The Muslim and Bible Corruption: is there coherence?

[Elisha Kai]

Does the Qur'an verify the modern claim of Muslims that the Bible is changed? Well...
It is He who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the BOOK, CONFIRMING WHAT WENT BEFORE IT; and He sent down the Torah (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) (Sura 3:3)
According to the Qur'an, the Qur'an confirms the Bible = book (the kitab, see next Sura 10: 94) that came before it.
If you Muhammad are in doubt regarding that which we have revealed to thee, ask THOSE who READ the BOOK from BEFORE YOU? (Sura 10:94).
According to the Qur'an, the previous revelations, the Bible verifies the Qur'an. That is of course a serious error, however, it does reveal Muhammad's concept of the Bible.
Hast thou not turned thy thought to those who have been given a PORTION OF THE BOOK? They are invited to the Book of Allah, to settle their dispute, but a party of them turn back and decline (Sura 3:23)
Ok, so the Qur'an claims that the Bible and the Qur'an are one book, and the the previous revelations, the Bible is a portion of the Book.I can't see I agree with that, but we get the full picture, the author of the Qur'an presumes that all the books agree with the Qur'an and that the Qur'an fits the previous revelations.
...whom they find written in the Torah and the Gospel that IS WITH THEM (Sura 7:156-157)
Ok, so the Torah and the Gospels are with the Jews and the Christians at Muhammad's time, why does the passage not state that these were corrupted text? Exactly, since the modern Islamic myth of Bible corruption was unheard of at this point!MUSLIMS TODAY GO AGAINST A FUNDAMENTAL RULE AND DOCTRINE IN THE QUR'AN
Say, O people of the book! You are not founded on anything until you PERFORM the TORAH and the GOSPEL, and what was revealed to you from your Lord? (Sura 5:68-71)
Interesting! So as a Christian or a Jew, I am not told to trash the Bible and turn to the Qur'an, I can simply read and follow Bible. If the Bible was corrupted, why does the Qur'an encourage the believers to perform it?
The Messenger believeth In what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith, each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, HIS BOOKS, and His messenger. ?WE MAKE NOT DISTINCTION (they say) between one and another of his messengers.? And they say: ?We hear, and we obey: (we seek) Thy forgivness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys? (Sura 2:285)
Ok, the true believer, according to the Qur'an believes in all the books, not just the Qur'an, and interestingly, not a word about corruption here.Be courteous when you argue with People of the Book except with those among them who do evil. Say: ? We believe in that which is revealed to us and which was revealed to you. Our God and your God is one?. (29:46)A lesson to all you Muslim who criticise the Bible AND ITS TEACHINGS; the Qur'an does not permit it; so be good and obedient Muslims and exclaim what the Qur'an orders you to, that you believe in the Qur'an and the Bible and the same God.Interestingly, no mention of Bible corruption here either; but why should it, why would Allah command, the Jews, Christians and the Muslims to believe in a corrupted book?
O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and his Messenger, and the SCRIPTURE WHICH HE SENT TO HIS MESSENGER, AND the SCRIPTURE WHICH HE SENT TO THOSE BEFORE (HIM). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His BOOKS, His messengers, and the day of judgement, hath gone fare astray (Sura 4:136)
Interesting! Unless the Muslim believes in the Bible as it was possessed, read, understood by the Jews and Christians in Muhammad's life, he cannot be a true Muslim, he has wandered fare astray! Challenge 1: If the Bible teaches Bible corruption, you Muslim need to provide a passage from the Qur'an that teaches the Muslims explicitly is to believe in the original Injeel but the first century, but reject the Injeel that existed in Muhammad's time. THE QUR'AN NEVER TEACHES THIS!!! Go ahead and try, but at the same time, if you manage the challenge, explain the passage in the light of the passages already referred to, since we would have a serious contradiction. Challenge 2: If the Muslim follows the modern myth of Bible corruption, Sura 4: 136 states that such a person has gone a stray and can therefore not be a true and good Muslim. One the other hand, If the Muslim is to be a good Muslim and believe the Bible, he has to believe in its teaching as well, in Jesus death on the cross, his resurrection, atonement and the notions of his divine nature; and hence such a Muslim who follows the Qur'an cannot be a Muslim either So what I would like to know, what is a Muslim?

 

[Thunder1]

(Elisha Kai;30825)
Does the Qur'an verify the modern claim of Muslims that the Bible is changed? Well... According to the Qur'an, the Qur'an confirms the Bible = book (the kitab, see next Sura 10: 94) that came before it.According to the Qur'an, the previous revelations, the Bible verifies the Qur'an. That is of course a serious error, however, it does reveal Muhammad's concept of the Bible.Ok, so the Qur'an claims that the Bible and the Qur'an are one book, and the the previous revelations, the Bible is a portion of the Book.I can't see I agree with that, but we get the full picture, the author of the Qur'an presumes that all the books agree with the Qur'an and that the Qur'an fits the previous revelations.Ok, so the Torah and the Gospels are with the Jews and the Christians at Muhammad's time, why does the passage not state that these were corrupted text? Exactly, since the modern Islamic myth of Bible corruption was unheard of at this point!MUSLIMS TODAY GO AGAINST A FUNDAMENTAL RULE AND DOCTRINE IN THE QUR'ANInteresting! So as a Christian or a Jew, I am not told to trash the Bible and turn to the Qur'an, I can simply read and follow Bible. If the Bible was corrupted, why does the Qur'an encourage the believers to perform it?Ok, the true believer, according to the Qur'an believes in all the books, not just the Qur'an, and interestingly, not a word about corruption here.Be courteous when you argue with People of the Book except with those among them who do evil. Say: ? We believe in that which is revealed to us and which was revealed to you. Our God and your God is one?. (29:46)A lesson to all you Muslim who criticise the Bible AND ITS TEACHINGS; the Qur'an does not permit it; so be good and obedient Muslims and exclaim what the Qur'an orders you to, that you believe in the Qur'an and the Bible and the same God.Interestingly, no mention of Bible corruption here either; but why should it, why would Allah command, the Jews, Christians and the Muslims to believe in a corrupted book?Interesting! Unless the Muslim believes in the Bible as it was possessed, read, understood by the Jews and Christians in Muhammad's life, he cannot be a true Muslim, he has wandered fare astray! Challenge 1: If the Bible teaches Bible corruption, you Muslim need to provide a passage from the Qur'an that teaches the Muslims explicitly is to believe in the original Injeel but the first century, but reject the Injeel that existed in Muhammad's time. THE QUR'AN NEVER TEACHES THIS!!! Go ahead and try, but at the same time, if you manage the challenge, explain the passage in the light of the passages already referred to, since we would have a serious contradiction. Challenge 2: If the Muslim follows the modern myth of Bible corruption, Sura 4: 136 states that such a person has gone a stray and can therefore not be a true and good Muslim. One the other hand, If the Muslim is to be a good Muslim and believe the Bible, he has to believe in its teaching as well, in Jesus death on the cross, his resurrection, atonement and the notions of his divine nature; and hence such a Muslim who follows the Qur'an cannot be a Muslim either So what I would like to know, what is a Muslim?
A muslim is a SINNER who needs JESUS to be saved from HELL.

 

[Thunder1]

muslims DO NOT pray to the same God (Yahweh) as Christians and Jews! Yahweh is transliterated from the Hebrew YHVH. Before muhammad the arabs had 365 gods - one for each day of the year. muhammad picked allah (Al-Iahi), who was the arab moon god, their war god, and their sword god. WHO IS allah?allah has pagan beginnings

 

[Ricky W]

A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Thunder1)
muslims DO NOT pray to the same God (Yahweh) as Christians and Jews! Yahweh is transliterated from the Hebrew YHVH. Before muhammad the arabs had 365 gods - one for each day of the year. muhammad picked allah (Al-Iahi), who was the arab moon god, their war god, and their sword god.
I think you should read your own 'Book' and history, Before those idols were exist there was only 1 God that know by Arabs, that is God of Ishmael, God of Abraham. Now if moslem worshiping God of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jesus. Then how came you saying we are not worshiping of the same God ? Christian indeed not worshiping the same God as Jews and Islam, because they worshiping Trinity, but we are not. We(Jews and Islam) are worshiping God which is cannot be seen, and has no human form and image.I think it is you one the who should think over of what you have state

.YHWH is meaning He isIt is often mention in the bible that word of YHWH follow by ElohyimYHWH ElohiymHe is GodIn Arabic it's like you are sayingHuwa AllahHe is God
Who Is allah?allah has pagan beginnings
If knowing not of what you are saying, it's better for you to keep silent, otherwise you are only shown how silly you are

.Oh btw, you may saying those god moon to Arabic Christian because they are using the same word as Islamic use, how pity is Entire of Arabic Christian, Malaysian Christian, Indonesia Christian, they are being humiliated by people of knowing not of what they said such as thunder1.Thanks God, i'm not christian otherwise it will useless of being it

I already discuss and several time refute to whom saying Allah is moon God on Islam faith.Wallaahu a'lam

 

[Jordan]

Ishmael did not know Allah, He knew by the name YHWH. Ishmaelites today (Arabs and Edom) are worshipping a god whom their forefather (Ishmael) did not know.Jag

 

[Ricky W]

A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(thesuperjag)
Ishmael did not know Allah, He knew by the name YHWH. Ishmaelites today (Arabs and Edom) are worshipping a god whom their forefather (Ishmael) did not know.Jag
Are you Arabs ?YHWH is meaning He isIt is often mention in the bible that word of YHWH follow by ElohyimYHWH ElohyimHe is GodIn Arabic it's like you are sayingHuwa AllahHe is GodJordan.... Jordan...., Christian Arabs, Jews Arabs has known Allah. It is you Christian Western who denied and blind perhaps

.Wallaahu a'lam.

 

[Thunder1]

We don't have same God.

 

[Thunder1]

from ex-muslim : "Islam is a sick cult that instills terror into people, murder, pedophiliac relationships, insect, rape, slander, etc, etc. Islam is not a religion - it is a cult, It is a political army out to destroy the world. Mohammed was a sick man who suffers from a mental disease and all his followers are the same. The Quran, (so called Word of God) is full of contradictions, mathematical errors, scientific errors, moral errors and so on."

 

[Ricky W]

A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Thunder1;31166)
from ex-muslim : "Islam is a sick cult that instills terror into people, murder, pedophiliac relationships, insect, rape, slander, etc, etc. Islam is not a religion - it is a cult, It is a political army out to destroy the world. Mohammed was a sick man who suffers from a mental disease and all his followers are the same. The Quran, (so called Word of God) is full of contradictions, mathematical errors, scientific errors, moral errors and so on."
But the non-muslim says opposite, and ex-revert and ex-pastor said, trinity is following pagan mytra believe. Book of sex as well, so how's sound that ? The "Bible", (so called Word of God) is full of contradictions, mathematical errors, scientific errors, moral errors and so on. Are you happy now

?Wallaahu a'lam.

 

[Thunder1]

Trinity= God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit. I'm very happy indeed ! Thank you for asking,dear.

 

[Ricky W]

A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Thunder1;31172)
Trinity= God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit. I'm very happy indeed ! Thank you for asking,dear.
Yes, indeed your God was different from us, Jews and Moslem indeed not worshiping God which has human form. Jews and Moslem has worship the same God which is cannot be seen, and the creator of Universe and the God of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Job etc, which is none of them worshiping Trinity

.Wallaahu a'lam.

 

[Thunder1]

allah is not same 'god' as our GOD.

 

[Elisha Kai]

Ricky wrote:
Yes, indeed your God was different from us, Jews and Moslem indeed not worshiping God which has human form. Jews and Moslem has worship the same God which is cannot be seen, and the creator of Universe and the God of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Job etc, which is none of them worshiping Trinity
Elisha Kai replies:You are completely of the target here. No we do not worship the same God, Muhammad or some early Muslims combined the Judeo-Christian God with an Arabic deity named Allah. The worship of Allah includes the recognition of a blakc meteorite stone, whome the ancient people's used to worship; which is one reason why Christians and Jews do not worship the Muslim God. Secondly, Allah supposedly, also fooled the world to believe that Jesus died, a corruption of truth that Allah permitted to be recorded in the Gospel account, a divine error which he refrained from corrected until the appearance of Muhammad, who neverethless through his revelation does not correct the error entirely but encourages the believers to continue follow their own corrupted Scripture, which simply creates further corruption and contradiction. Why is Allah encouraging Muhammad, the Jews, Christians and Muslims to believe in corrupted Scripture, why is Allah not telling us to trash these corrupted Scriptures, why does he not explain that this particular part of the Injeel was corrupted? Why does Allah even respect corrupted Scripture?Also you assume that we worship a God who can be seen while Muslims worship a God who cannot be seen. Not enterily correct, presumably Muhammad was taken to heaven where he witnessed Allah behind a three whose leafs were like elephant ears, hence anyone zapped up through the seven heavens or more correctly the cosmological surfaces can witness Allah if permitted. Furthermore, if I am not entirely of target there are indications in the Muslim writings that Allah was seen on earth. In fact since the Qur'an confirms the reliability of the previous Scriptures, the Muslim is forced to believe what the previous Scriptures teach, which would include for example John 1: 1, and the ending of Matthew 28, and the fact that Jesus Christ at the day of glorious and destructive return will send his own angels to excercise destruction or salvation. No human nor angels possesses such an authority. And the Qur'an commands you to believe these very words.As to the God of the Jews and Christians, he was constantly seen through revelations, whether spiritual or physical, in the Torah and through the prophetical narrative and prophetical literature of the Old Testament. Jesus, in his flesh was not a literal revelation of God or his glory, but God revealed in flesh, not to be understood that the entire God-head left heavens and appeared in a physical shape, we may rather say that the divine fulness dwelled in him physically; but that is not the same as seeing God in the manner you propose your statement. Otherwise, fellows, brothers or sisters, we slighty away from the actual topic of the thread.

 

[Ricky W]

A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiimI'm sorry for taking you so long Elisha Kai, to response the real topic of you, because of some reason.Here is the response for your started thread

, and some for your latest response i guess, i do hope it can explain and clarify on what you have been "asked" and wrong accusation (*I suppose)

.http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami...omattslick1.htmWallaahu a'lam.

 

[Elisha Kai]

I notice, Ricky, that most of your argumentation is based upon Islamic websites. I am fully aware of answering-Christianity, I am a apologist by profession, and am supposedly soon to start posting material on answering Islam.org, but have evaded this due to current studies, and my schedule is certainly packed, so I am fairly well aquainted with answering-Christianity. I know their response, to what I posted here, and I am not convinced. Two years I utilized their material on cosmological science in a dissertation related to religion and science, that stuff they posted was laughable, no wonder so many Muslims are embarrased by their contribution to Islam. If you want to debate me, I suggest you find a library and do your own homework, that is time-demanding, and consequently you may post much less, but there will make slightly more sense in your overall argumentation.

 

[Elisha Kai]

However Ricky could you please show me one verse in the Qur'an, which explicitly confirms that the present Injeel (not the Christian person) but the actual Injeel (from the time of Muhammad until the present day) has been corrupted?In other words, where in the Qur'an does Allah tell Muhammad, the Muslim, the Christian or the Jew not to read the Injeel because it is corrupted? I would like to see that passage.Be blessed Elisha Kai

 

[Faithful]

Ricky W Quote:Originally Posted by Thunder1 muslims DO NOT pray to the same God (Yahweh) as Christians and Jews! Yahweh is transliterated from the Hebrew YHVH. Before muhammad the arabs had 365 gods - one for each day of the year. muhammad picked allah (Al-Iahi), who was the arab moon god, their war god, and their sword god. I think you should read your own 'Book' and history, Before those idols were exist there was only 1 God that know by Arabs, that is God of Ishmael, God of Abraham. Now if moslem worshiping God of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jesus. Then how came you saying we are not worshiping of the same God ? Christian indeed not worshiping the same God as Jews and Islam, because they worshiping Trinity, but we are not. We(Jews and Islam) are worshiping God which is cannot be seen, and has no human form and image.
Those who worship the true God can be seen to do so because they obey him. God has not changed his name nor given others a new name for himself. Your God is not called Yahweh or Iam therefore he is not the same God.So how are Christians worshipping the trinity? They cannot worship the trinity for the temple is made Holy be the presence of God.You look at what each member of the Trinity does. God the Father who is in heaven and is the only one who knows the time of Christs return. So even Christ does not know it. We see that those who are true worshippers of God can only worship in Spirit and truth. John 4:23Whilst there is a God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We see that it is only by the truth of Christ, and the presence of Gods Spirit in us that we can know the true God. That as God has made us all one with him and Jesus as they are one together. That each has a significant part to play so a believer may be a child of the most high God. The gospel of Jesus Christ must be believed that he died for our sins.The belief of this is shown in our love for Jesus in that we love God and love others. And that if we do these things then the Father sends us another helper the Holy Spirit. For us to be alive and known to God all three persons are required in the life of the believer. 1 John 5:7 (King James Version)7.For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.John 1:14 (King James Version)14.And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.Is it impossible for God to take the words he has spoken and make it flesh so we have a human being who is the will and word of God doing his will?Is it impossible that God place part of himself in his Spirit within us so we could walk according to his truth and not the flesh?Who is God that you believe any man made of flesh alone could know more than a Son of God born of flesh by the power of Gods Spirit?If any person reading the Koran or even those who wrote it, understood and new God, they would never have left the truth of the teachings of Gods word out. With respect Ricky you hold on to an outward form of faith whilst the children of God are renewed by the inward form of faith, a heart where Gods Spirit dwells and lives. If you cannot understand something so simple how will you every understand who Christ is and how he entered the Holy of Holies to save us from our sin and open the way up for us to come to know God and receive life in the Spirit?Faithful.:angel7:

 

[K9Claire]

I am Christian and I believe there is value in the Koran. I have a copy and intend to read it though I don't expect it to become part of my life. I also have a copy of the Bagavadgita (Hindu), the Dhammapada (Buddhist), and The Book of Mormon. I want education, not closed mindedness. Paul says in Romans 2 that the judgements of men should be left to God. I have no distaste for other faiths even if I will refuse to practive them.

 

[K9Claire]

Oh and I also have the Tao Ti Ching.Judge me if you think that is the what you must do.

 

[Elisha Kai]

You need to define value. I have read and studied the Qur'an for quite a long time, and did a lot of research in the Rig Veda (which is enourmous in size) and the Zoroastrian material. I have also been fascinated by the traditions of the native Americans. However, you find value in all religions and idea, even Nazi Germani contained some fascinating elements, that does not however mean that we are entitled to succumb to these ideas or given them unecessary credit. God has placed his law in to the heart of man, after all we are created in his image, hence you will find goodness and virtue everywhere. As for the Qur'an most of the ideas have been borrowed from Christianity, the Old Testament and Judaism (read the Talmud) and Greek philosophy. I cannot judge you for reading other religious books, but I would encourage and advise you as a Christian to Christian to focus on the Bible first, and especially to be well grounded in the Bible before you probe into the knowledge of other religions. In fact I encourage Christians to set off several hours a day to memorize the word of God, that is unfortunally a practice that we have lost in the last centuries. If you read the early Church Fathers, that generation of Christians memorized the Gospels and the Epistles, to do that does not need to take more than two-three years, if you read two hours a day (I am serious belive me; I memorized all the epistles, and now I memorize the Gospels, whereas I know the context by heart, I believe as Christians we should do that). Now I find my self ready to study other religions. So what am I saying? I am saying: get to know your own book first (if you are a Christian, that means the Bible), memorize if possible, at least know its context and doctrines, and follow it fanatically, and you will be blessed. Be blessedElisha Kai