The mysteries in the Gospels “Who Do You Believe? The Witnessed Words of Jesus or Paul’s Private Vision?”

[marks]

To all those who raise Paul's words before Christ's, the son of God,

Again, false! Who is "raising Paul's words before Christ's??

No one I know. You have it in for Paul, and it shows. Why is that? Why do you reject Jesus' teachings that were given to Paul? If you reject the one who has been sent, you reject the One Who sent him.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

@WitnessX

Oh yes Paul did teach differently from Christ.

Paul was sent to author doctrine for the Body of Christ.
The Body of Christ didn't exist before Jesus died on The Cross.
Jesus was sent .to the Jews....the "house of Israel". This was his Ministry.

So, they had different ministries., thus, a different message.
Paul's Doctrine that is meant for the "time of the Gentiles".. = the Gentile Church that makes up most of the body of Christ, is not the message or gospel or doctrine that Jesus taught the House of Israel (Jews).

 

[Behold]

There is only one gospel—

-
1.) When you deal with heretics, and ive dealt with perhaps thousands by now.........you run into the same types..

One of these "types"........is this one.

= "The Gospel that Jesus taught"........is what they proclaim.

See that?
And That is nonsense.......because Jesus never taught a Gospel until He taught it to PAUL, and that happened after Jesus was back in Heaven.
IN Fact, the idea, the concept, the reality of a "Gospel".. was not known, until Jesus died on The Cross, to create it.
Understand?
And Jesus called Paul to deliver the GOSPEL to us all, ..,,, and Paul teaches that any other Gospel, then His, is "cursed", as is the person who is teaching Universalism, or any other false Gospel, such as.. "mary is helping Jesus bring souls into heaven"

= Galatians 1:8

So, when you hear some bible infant talking or posting... who may or may not actually be a Christian....talking about "Jesus's Gospel"......then you are dealing with someone who does not yet understand something, that i'll show you now.

Its this....

2.) When Jesus was teaching and preaching......>He was Talking to the JEWS the "house of Israel".. as He was sent only to the Jews....and so, what could He NOT tell them about, His entire earthly ministry?
Jesus could not tell them about the GOSPEL.......and that is because He had not died on The Cross during His eartly ministry to the Jews.......so, there was no GOSPEL He could teach them, as He hadn't died on The Cross yet.......which created the Gospel.

Understand?

Now notice........
And after Jesus was resurrected, He never went back to the Jews.....as a Minister....>>He only stayed with His remaining apostles and disciples until His ascension back to GLORY.
So, even AFTER Jesus died ON THE CROSS to create the Gospel.....>He never went back to the Jews, to tell them.

What did He do instead. ???
He asended to Heaven, and called PAUL the Apostle to bring "the Gospel" to the world., initially.
Now WE are to do it.
You and ME.
= US.

So, when you read where some "bible noob" who is saved 40 yrs.......and still knows nothing about SALVATION< and begins to chatter about "Jesus's Gospel" then you know you've found someone to avoid, as they are clueless, regarding "The Gospel".
They do not understand God's Salvation. They do not understand that "the Gospel" we are to preach and teach and share, came from Paul.

Make certain you notice them, as they are a theological mess, and they infect Forums, ... and you dont want them to turn you into the same.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Again, false! Who is "raising Paul's words before Christ's??

No one I know. You have it in for Paul, and it shows. Why is that? Why do you reject Jesus' teachings that were given to Paul? If you reject the one who has been sent, you reject the One Who sent him.

Much love!

When people believe Paul before Christ they put Paul first;

1-Why is no one addressing what Paul said: the Lord “will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel” (Romans 2:16). knowing very well Christ said differently?

2-Why people do not see what Paul said about Christ in 1 col 24;"I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, " Christ was the only one who could atone the world's sin and He alone completed this this in undeniable, Paul had nothing to do with this.

it is obvious Paul likes to boast but there he went too far.

Anyone who in these 2 verses from Paul, believes what he said and not Christ said or did indeed puts Paul before Christ.

there is much more I can say but you will not hear it because many have been blinded as it is written;

Isa 44:18 They do not comprehend or discern, for He has shut their eyes so they cannot see and closed their minds so they cannot understand.​

 

[marks]

Isa 44:18 They do not comprehend or discern, for He has shut their eyes so they cannot see and closed their minds so they cannot understand.

That's for you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

When people believe Paul before Christ they put Paul first;

When you act as though people "believe Paul before Christ" you construct a Straw Man, and argue against that, which is again false.

1-Why is no one addressing what Paul said: the Lord “will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel” (Romans 2:16). knowing very well Christ said differently?

I've already addressed this, did you not read it?

2-Why people do not see what Paul said about Christ in 1 col 24;"I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, "

Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?

Don't diminish our oneness with Christ.

If we suffer with Him . . .

You use this foolishly to strike out against Paul, but you merely reveal your unbelief and lack of understanding.

Anyone who in these 2 verses from Paul, believes what he said and not Christ said or did indeed puts Paul before Christ.

Nonsense! I believe the Bible, and by your own words, you only believe parts of the Bible. This means you've set yourself as the judge of Scripture, and what is true and what is not.

Not a good place to be! Why do you fight and struggle against God's Word? As if Paul wrote on his own, and contrary to God?

I just LOVE how the Bible anticipates every heresy and answers them all!

2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV
15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Peter attests to Paul's writings being Scripture, but you say his words are false. I will believe the Bible rather than those who claim it's false. So you wrestle with Paul's writings, to your own destruction.

Much love!

 

[LoveYeshua]

Paul was sent to author doctrine for the Body of Christ.
The Body of Christ didn't exist before Jesus died on The Cross.
Jesus was sent .to the Jews....the "house of Israel". This was his Ministry.

So, they had different ministries., thus, a different message.
Paul's Doctrine that is meant for the "time of the Gentiles".. = the Gentile Church that makes up most of the body of Christ, is not the message or gospel or doctrine that Jesus taught the House of Israel (Jews).

ok now you start to see they had a different message, finally. I am good with that, You do not know me, I do not ask anyone to believe me all I ask is that people look at the evidence I have put before you all here today and consider carefully. My objective has not changed and never will, to bring people back to Christ and His teachings.

as for ministries, do not forget it was Peter that BY GOD was chose to go to the gentiles, Petr was teachinr everything Christ said and done and yes the cross too, paul was an extra pair of hands a servant not to be equaled with the master ( Jesus our Lord)

 

[LoveYeshua]

No contradiction. Paul's Gospel was spoken to him by Jesus. This is a simple thing.

You seem to reject that Jesus gave Paul his teaching. But if you stop with that, you may see the simplicity in the harmony.

Much love!

Absolutely no witnesses when paul recieved his Mystery, none

Jesus said clearly in John 5:31
If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.
I guess you forgot the words of Jesus too...

 

[LoveYeshua]

You are equivicating, which is dishonest.

You are one of those who are trying to sneak in with false teaching. And you don't want to get caught.

Much love!

you are ignoring the words of Christ! and refuse to see

 

[marks]

do not forget it was Peter that BY GOD was chose to go to the gentiles,

Not so.

Galatians 2:7-8 KJV
7) But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8) (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

But then this was written by Paul so I'm not surprised when you reject it.

How do you say you love Jesus but reject a great deal of His teaching?

Much love!

 

[LoveYeshua]

this is the end times and knowledge increases, do not be left behind and believe every word Christ said always he is the only way to eternal life.

 

[marks]

Absolutely no witnesses when paul recieved his Mystery, none

Jesus said clearly in John 5:31
If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.
I guess you forgot the words of Jesus too...

So that makes you an unbeliever.

Jesus was speaking in legal terms of the Jewish Law, which required 2 or more to testify. Do you suppose that if no one attested to Jesus' words, would that make them false? Of course not! This was strictly a point of Jewish law, not the veracity of His teaching. You can "guess" all you like, but for what? Again you simply affirm you disbelieve what the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write.

But you aren't making a correct correlation. There were no witnesses to Jesus' revelation, only that many heard His teaching. Just as many heard Paul's teaching.

Your entire premise there is built on a false foundation.

I'll say that again.

You claim that because there were many who heard Jesus teach that somehow this authenticates His teaching, but that's false. What authenticates Jesus' teaching is that it was revelation from God.

So your complaint comes down to the assertion that Paul wrote on his own, not inspired by God, but that he wrote deceptively, purposely to deceive. But Peter puts the lie to that assertion as completely false.

You say, no one was there to witness what Jesus taught to Paul. But by the same token, you would have to likewise deny the veracity of James, and Jude, and Peter. Oh, and Luke also. And John's Revelation of Jesus Christ. No witnesses there!

But you've got it in for Paul, so you don't mention this, you just focus on Paul.

But will this matter to you? Surprise me!

Much love!

 

[LoveYeshua]

Not so.

Galatians 2:7-8 KJV
7) But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8) (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

But then this was written by Paul so I'm not surprised when you reject it.

How do you say you love Jesus but reject a great deal of His teaching?

Much love!

about what you quoted from
Galatians 2:7-8 KJV
7) But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8) (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
When we compare this with Jesus’ own words, we see a problem. Jesus never gave Paul a different gospel. He preached one gospel—the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 24:14)—and told the eleven apostles, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations… teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19–20). He did not divide it into a gospel for Jews and a different one for Gentiles.

Jesus had already told Peter and the others to “go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15). In Acts 10, before Paul’s ministry, Peter was sent by God to the Gentile Cornelius, and the Holy Spirit fell on them, proving the same message and salvation were for Gentiles too (Acts 10:34–36, 44–45).

So Paul’s claim that he had a separate “gospel of the uncircumcision” is not supported by Jesus’ teaching. The true gospel is one, the same for Jew and Gentile, and Jesus gave it to His disciples before Paul was ever converted.

Let me remind you something again ACTS 15:7,

“After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.

are you saying this is false?

do you start to see the truth now?

 

[marks]

So Paul’s claim that he had a separate “gospel of the uncircumcision

YOU are the one claiming a "separate gospel". Paul claims there is one Gospel only. YOU are inventing this.

You do not understand Paul's writings, and so you reject them as false. That's all that is happening here.

It's all there in front of you, you can either accept or reject, and you choose to reject. So be it.

Much love!

 

[LoveYeshua]

So that makes you an unbeliever.

Jesus was speaking in legal terms of the Jewish Law, which required 2 or more to testify. Do you suppose that if no one attested to Jesus' words, would that make them false? Of course not! This was strictly a point of Jewish law, not the veracity of His teaching. You can "guess" all you like, but for what? Again you simply affirm you disbelieve what the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write.

But you aren't making a correct correlation. There were no witnesses to Jesus' revelation, only that many heard His teaching. Just as many heard Paul's teaching.

Your entire premise there is built on a false foundation.

I'll say that again.

You claim that because there were many who heard Jesus teach that somehow this authenticates His teaching, but that's false. What authenticates Jesus' teaching is that it was revelation from God.

So your complaint comes down to the assertion that Paul wrote on his own, not inspired by God, but that he wrote deceptively, purposely to deceive. But Peter puts the lie to that assertion as completely false.

You say, no one was there to witness what Jesus taught to Paul. But by the same token, you would have to likewise deny the veracity of James, and Jude, and Peter. Oh, and Luke also. And John's Revelation of Jesus Christ. No witnesses there!

But you've got it in for Paul, so you don't mention this, you just focus on Paul.

But will this matter to you? Surprise me!

Much love!

yes witnessing is very important to determine truth and witnesses are essential, Jesus was witnessed by thousandths GOD Himself Yes, you forgot this also!!! and what you Sais diminished Jesus just like paul did.

In Jewish law, truth is confirmed by witnesses. Deuteronomy 19:15 says: “By the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established.” This principle was vital in their courts and in affirming any testimony. Even Jesus referred to this when He said, “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. There is another who bears witness of Me… the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me” (John 5:31, 37).
At Jesus’ baptism and transfiguration, the Father Himself was the witness, the Holy Spirit descended visibly, and people like John the Baptist and the disciples heard and saw it. This fulfilled the law’s requirement for multiple witnesses.

This matters because in Jewish tradition, no one could establish a teaching or authority without testimony. Jesus had the greatest possible witness: God Himself. This is why He said, “If anyone desires to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God” (John 7:17).


Paul, by contrast, claimed to have seen Jesus in a private vision, saying, “Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?” (1 Corinthians 9:1) and “Last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time” (1 Corinthians 15:8). His three accounts of the Damascus road event (Acts 9; 22; 26) differ, and those with him could not confirm what he saw or heard. Paul repeatedly insisted that his witness about himself was true: “I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit” (Romans 9:1), “The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… knows that I am not lying” (2 Corinthians 11:31), and “Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie” (Galatians 1:20). He even said his gospel came “not from man, nor was I taught it, but… through the revelation of Jesus Christ” (Galatians 1:12).

By the law’s standard, and the words of Jesus, self-witness is not enough. Paul’s testimony rests entirely on his own claims, with no confirming witnesses, while Jesus was confirmed by the Father, the Spirit, and many human witnesses, fulfilling God’s requirement for truth.

Paul received his mystery gospel in secret with NO witnesses except his OWN self witnessing 3 times , therefore INVALID, INVALID, INVALID!

I suggest you go back and read again the words of Christ that you obviously have forgotten! you also do not know much about paul.

Much Much Much Love!

 

[PS95]

yes witnessing is very important to determine truth and witnesses are essential, Jesus was witnessed by thousandths GOD Himself Yes, you forgot this also!!! and what you Sais diminished Jesus just like paul did.

In Jewish law, truth is confirmed by witnesses. Deuteronomy 19:15 says: “By the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established.” This principle was vital in their courts and in affirming any testimony. Even Jesus referred to this when He said, “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. There is another who bears witness of Me… the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me” (John 5:31, 37).
At Jesus’ baptism and transfiguration, the Father Himself was the witness, the Holy Spirit descended visibly, and people like John the Baptist and the disciples heard and saw it. This fulfilled the law’s requirement for multiple witnesses.

This matters because in Jewish tradition, no one could establish a teaching or authority without testimony. Jesus had the greatest possible witness: God Himself. This is why He said, “If anyone desires to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God” (John 7:17).


Paul, by contrast, claimed to have seen Jesus in a private vision, saying, “Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?” (1 Corinthians 9:1) and “Last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time” (1 Corinthians 15:8). His three accounts of the Damascus road event (Acts 9; 22; 26) differ, and those with him could not confirm what he saw or heard. Paul repeatedly insisted that his witness about himself was true: “I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit” (Romans 9:1), “The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… knows that I am not lying” (2 Corinthians 11:31), and “Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie” (Galatians 1:20). He even said his gospel came “not from man, nor was I taught it, but… through the revelation of Jesus Christ” (Galatians 1:12).

By the law’s standard, and the words of Jesus, self-witness is not enough. Paul’s testimony rests entirely on his own claims, with no confirming witnesses, while Jesus was confirmed by the Father, the Spirit, and many human witnesses, fulfilling God’s requirement for truth.

Paul received his mystery gospel in secret with NO witnesses except his OWN self witnessing 3 times , therefore INVALID, INVALID, INVALID!

I suggest you go back and read again the words of Christ that you obviously have forgotten! you also do not know much about paul.

Much Much Much Love!

Why do you disregard the witness of Ananias? Surely he is one if you read it. And the Lord is two. That settles that.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Why do you disregard the witness of Ananias? Surely he is one if you read it. And the Lord is two. That settles that.

No, Ananias could not fulfill the requirement of the Law as a proper witness to Paul’s claimed vision.

In the Law of Moses, truth had to be established “by the mouth of two or three witnesses” (Deuteronomy 19:15; also repeated by Jesus in Matthew 18:16). A valid witness had to have actually seen or heard the event being confirmed. Paul’s experience on the road to Damascus had no such witnesses.

Paul himself admitted that those who were with him did not see what he saw. In Acts 9:7, Luke writes that the men traveling with Paul “stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one.” In Acts 22:9, Paul later says, “those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me.” These are contradictory accounts, but in both versions, no one could confirm the conversation Paul claimed to have had with Jesus.

Ananias only met Paul after the vision. He did not see or hear the event himself. He merely acted on what Paul told him, so legally he was not a witness of the revelation. Under Jewish law, this does not meet the standard of confirmation by “two or three” direct witnesses.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Paul was sent to author doctrine for the Body of Christ.
The Body of Christ didn't exist before Jesus died on The Cross.
Jesus was sent .to the Jews....the "house of Israel". This was his Ministry.

So, they had different ministries., thus, a different message.
Paul's Doctrine that is meant for the "time of the Gentiles".. = the Gentile Church that makes up most of the body of Christ, is not the message or gospel or doctrine that Jesus taught the House of Israel (Jews).

Behold we have discussed this in the past and I have proven that some of that you say is not what scripture says.

Lets have a look

You wrote:"Paul was sent to author doctrine for the Body of Christ."

I agree. this was the core of Paul's teachings

You wrote:"The Body of Christ didn't exist before Jesus died on The Cross."

Jesus never confirmed Paul’s idea of a “body of Christ.” He spoke of His church (Matthew 16:18) and called His followers His sheep, telling Peter after the resurrection, “Feed My sheep” (John 21:17). and
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church" ( Matt. 16:18 )

You wrote:"So, they had different ministries., thus, a different message."

Jesus sent His disciples to continue the same message He preached, “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:20). There is only “one gospel of the kingdom” that Jesus said must be preached to all nations (Matthew 24:14).

You wrote;
"So, they had different ministries., thus, a different message.
Paul's Doctrine that is meant for the "time of the Gentiles".. = the Gentile Church that makes up most of the body of Christ, is not the message or gospel or doctrine that Jesus taught the House of Israel (Jews)."

Jesus taught one gospel for all, not separate messages for Jews and Gentiles. He commanded after His resurrection, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19–20). He also said, “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come”(Matthew 24:14).

Jesus spoke of bringing others beyond Israel, “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd” (John 10:16). He never gave Paul or anyone else permission to create a different gospel for Gentiles.

 

[PS95]

No, Ananias could not fulfill the requirement of the Law as a proper witness to Paul’s claimed vision.

In the Law of Moses, truth had to be established “by the mouth of two or three witnesses” (Deuteronomy 19:15; also repeated by Jesus in Matthew 18:16). A valid witness had to have actually seen or heard the event being confirmed. Paul’s experience on the road to Damascus had no such witnesses.

Paul himself admitted that those who were with him did not see what he saw. In Acts 9:7, Luke writes that the men traveling with Paul “stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one.” In Acts 22:9, Paul later says, “those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me.” These are contradictory accounts, but in both versions, no one could confirm the conversation Paul claimed to have had with Jesus.

Ananias only met Paul after the vision. He did not see or hear the event himself. He merely acted on what Paul told him, so legally he was not a witness of the revelation. Under Jewish law, this does not meet the standard of confirmation by “two or three” direct witnesses.

Surely you can't be serious. The two men traveling with him HEARD THE VOICE.
and Ananias -he knew that the Lord Jesus appeared to Paul on the road and was given details and to go to him. How did Ananias know?? the Lord told him.
Denying that is denying the words of the Lord.
I am very worried about you.
You really can't get around this. but I fear that you will try.
Pray my friend, because this is not good.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Surely you can't be serious. The two men traveling with him HEARD THE VOICE.
and Ananias -he knew that the Lord Jesus appeared to Paul on the road and was given details and to go to him. How did Ananias know?? the Lord told him.
Denying that is denying the words of the Lord.
I am very worried about you.
You really can't get around this. but I fear that you will try.
Pray my friend, because this is not good.

• Did Annanias Witnessed the voices or seen the vision of Paul? NO!

why Must i explain this to you again;

Jesus never gave Paul a different message—He sent His disciples to “teach all nations … to observe all things that I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19–20), and He said the same gospel of the kingdom must go “to all the nations”(Matthew 24:14).

The men with Paul were not true witnesses; Acts 9:7 says “the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one,” while Paul later says, “those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me” (Acts 22:9). They could not confirm what was said.
do you agree with scripture or NOT?

Ananias met Paul only afterwards. He did not see the vision himself; he acted on what he was told in a separate vision (Acts 9:10–17). According to the Law, “by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established”(Deuteronomy 19:15), and no such confirming witnesses existed for Paul’s claim.

for 35 years I stopped reading the bible because of Paul I saw the discrepancies and I rejected His words than and doubted the bible because of his words.

Some people read Paul and do not see the difference or just ignore them but it is most important that everyone follows what Christ said before all else, it is why I am doing this, so people go back to the truth Christ told all of us to repent and sin no more and follow the commandments, this dealt to eternal life. Is this wrong to preach the gospel of Christ as He spoke it? DO not worry about me, instead worry for all those who left Christ for another Gospel.

Believe what you wand but many things Paul said are not inspired, I have described a few only.