The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[BreadOfLife]

One of the funny misconception in the Bible is that 2nd Peter 3:8--> with the Lord one day is a thousand years and a thousand years as one day....means many things...like you say in all time. The magic of time keeping in the scriptures like 39 hours adds up to be three day. The phrase with the Lord one day is a thousand years and a thousand years as one day....actually means right now...whenever you say....today. To prove that point read it in context with the next verse. I give you that as a funny, but I mostly agree with you. The Trinity perceives time and interacts with it differently than us. The science of it is interesting.

And of course I agree with this,
God is not a monster who sends people kicking and screaming into Hell against their will - nor does He drag anybody into Heaven kicking and screaming against their will. He does not coerce us to follow Him nor does He ordain those who reject Him.
He gives US that choice.

2 Pet. 3:8 is talking not only about "right now" - but about the "eternal now" in which God exists.

 

[Cristo Rei]

I repented appriximately 40 years ago

So u don't repent when u sin?

I could find stuff on all kinds of churches, Does it mean they are hated.
Prety much every catholic I even try to have a discussion with, goes to the "Hate" card when I try to have any discussion concerning anything they believe. even if the only thing I did was share my belief, and was not even talking to them (notice I said almost. Not all have done this, I have had some meaningful conversations with catholics who do not get so offended when someone disagrees with them)

Im not saying everyone is anti-Catholic, just some people
I can only speak from experience, as I said I never even knew what a Protestant was until recently.

I was on another Christian forum and for the first 6 months was great. Then I started to get hostile responses. One post was like
"where in the bible does it say this or this or this or this" and went on and on about all these Catholic doctrines that aren't biblical

So I asked why she had brought up all these things as none of them were being discussed. I just received more hostile responses
She said it was because of my avatar picture of Jesus Sacred Heart and cursed it. I didn't even know it was a Catholic thing.

I started to realize that when I had changed my avatar to the Sacred Heart was when people changed their tune
I began a thread to find out and it was true. That was discrimination, that was hate, and there is no excuse for it

Your one of the very few.. In fact, your the only catholic I have ever met who has said this.. And I know MANY

How would my parents who came from tiny European villages in a Catholic country even know what a Protestant was, u guys aren't that big.
U really think that Catholic schools train students in debating Protestants. Again, u guys aren't that big.
Im 42yo and only recently found out what Protestants were. Like I said, u guys just aren't that big.

Would you like to discuss the word? or will you be offended if I disagree with you?

I don't get offended over disagreements. I myself even disagree with some Catholic doctrines.
I don't like seeing all this division but, in fact learning about all this has been really painful

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Im not saying everyone is anti-Catholic, just some people
I can only speak from experience, as I said I never even knew what a Protestant was until recently.

I was on another Christian forum and for the first 6 months was great. Then I started to get hostile responses. One post was like
"where in the bible does it say this or this or this or this" and went on and on about all these Catholic doctrines that aren't biblical

So I asked why she had brought up all these things as none of them were being discussed. I just received more hostile responses
She said it was because of my avatar picture of Jesus Sacred Heart and cursed it. I didn't even know it was a Catholic thing.

I started to realize that when I had changed my avatar to the Sacred Heart was when people changed their tune
I began a thread to find out and it was true. That was discrimination, that was hate, and there is no excuse for it

I'm sorry that happened to you. Some people are indeed hateful, and often blindly so.
I wish I could say that you won't find them here, tragically, they exist on every sets of pews out there (forums/churches/etc).
When you do come across such a person, it's usually best to say a silent prayer for them and then move on. If a person becomes super persistent/hostile, reporting them to the mods and using the /ignore feature are both good things.

 

[Grailhunter]

Paul clearly said saved through faith, not works in Ephesians 2:8,9. It doesn't get any clearer than that. Who said Paul was warning believers in Galatians 5 and 1 Corinthians 6 that their sins can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of God? In 1 Corinthians 6:9, we read - Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? The unrighteousness are not believers. Paul goes on to give a list of sins in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and in Galatians 5:19-21 and in verse 21, Paul goes on to say that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

In 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin..

1 Corinthians 6:11, Paul goes on to say - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Here we have a CONTRAST between the unrighteous and the righteous and it's not hard to find the unrighteous (who may even look like the righteous) mixed in with the righteous, hence the warning.

Alright Mailman,
Not picking on you...just taking the opportunity to clear up a few misconceptions.
I guess I have to start from the beginning.
What does the word saved mean? A very simple concept / slogan for the ministry.
If you notice Christ does not talk a lot about salvation during His ministry. Because the completeness of salvation was not possible until His sacrificial death.

But people were saved during Christ's ministry. They were saved from hell. Saved is not a ticket to heaven. Saved is not the completeness of salvation. Saved does not mean, have a seat and wait for your reward.
Some people do not consider the importance of the bread and wine ritual. But Christ said that if you do not do it, you will have no life in you and He will not raise you in the end. What would it be like to be saved and have no life in you and not be raised from the grave?

Again, some people do not consider the importance of baptism. Baptism for the remission of sins. Do you know what remission means? Born again, your past sins forgiven and you come out of the water a new person, the old person dead to God. From then on your sins are between you and Christ in the context of being a member of the family of God and your sins are similar to when your son transgress against you. Your son robs a bank and he is going to prison. When he take a 20 from you it is between you and him.

Talents what are they?....the Greek word for works and deeds are the same thing....you have to be careful how they translated them. With a lot of people that believe in the don't doers concept of religion, "I am righteous by what I don't do" all they have to do is sit in a closet and not sin and then just wait to go to heaven. When Christ comes back you might be told He never knew you.

The person that sits in a closet is like the guy that buried his talent. What is it gnashing of teeth. You might want to look at the parable of the Sheep and the Goats and the Good Samaritan, if, if your interested in knowing how Christ looks at the importance of Good Deeds and you might look and see if He thinks it is important to be baptized and partake of the bread and wine ritual. Saved by faith...definitely! But does your Christian walk with Christ end there? Do your rewards end there? Does your duty to Christ and other Christians end there?

Paul and James were not arguing over salvation. James was pointing out that, what service to Christ is salvation if the good boy sit like a bump on log waiting his reward, while others starve and are naked and with no shelter. He has buried his talent and is of no service to Christ. Where do you end up? Well for the most part hell is not a possible destination for those that believe. Christians in hell? God gave His only begotten Son for a plan that would only be marginally successful? Not likely!

And you cannot shatter faith, or saved, or grace, only Satan would hope for such a thing! Salvation is more solid than any rock, the rest is your walk with Christ. Set your course on a life of loving others and doing Good Deeds and you will have Christ by your side smiling. The son that takes up the trade of the father has a closer relationship with his father.

 

[Grailhunter]

2 Pet. 3:8 is talking not only about "right now" - but about the "eternal now" in which God exists.

read the verse that follows it. It is not about God not being able to tell time. It is not about God not being able to express time as we can understand it. He can relate to us at our level. It is a riddle of sorts...it is not saying a day and thousand years is the same thing to God.

 

[BreadOfLife]

read the verse that follows it. It is not about God not being able to tell time. It is not about God not being able to express time as we can understand it. He can relate to us at our level. It is a riddle of sorts...it is not saying a day and thousand years is the same thing to God.

It's not about God NOT being able to do anything. He can do anything He wills.

No - the entire first TEN verses in this chapter are about not despairing over the fact that the Lord has not yet returned.
Peter explains that He is NOT bound by our reckoning of time. That's what 2 Pet. 3:8 is all about:

2 Pet. 3:1-10
This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you; through them by way of reminder I am trying to stir up your sincere disposition, to recall the words previously spoken by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and savior through your apostles. Know this first of all, that in the last days scoffers will come to scoff, living according to their own desires and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? From the time when our ancestors fell asleep, everything has remained as it was from the beginning of creation.” They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God; through these the world that then existed was destroyed,e deluged with water. The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word for fire, kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless. But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day.
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire, and the earth and everything done on it will be found out.

 

[Grailhunter]

It's not about God NOT being able to do anything. He can do anything He wills.

No - the entire first TEN verses in this chapter are about not despairing over the fact that the Lord has not yet returned.
Peter explains that He is NOT bound by our reckoning of time. That's what 2 Pet. 3:8 is all about:

2 Pet. 3:1-10
This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you; through them by way of reminder I am trying to stir up your sincere disposition, to recall the words previously spoken by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and savior through your apostles. Know this first of all, that in the last days scoffers will come to scoff, living according to their own desires and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? From the time when our ancestors fell asleep, everything has remained as it was from the beginning of creation.” They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God; through these the world that then existed was destroyed,e deluged with water. The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word for fire, kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless. But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day.
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire, and the earth and everything done on it will be found out.

BOL you have to pick a better answer than that. lol
the entire first TEN verses in this chapter are about not despairing over the fact that the Lord has not yet returned.

Are you trying to say that the scriptures are alluding to that fact that Christ did not return because He cannot tell time?
Christians have been asking that question for 2000 ~ years. How does the last days and last times and the time has been shortened and come quickly mean 2000 plus years. If the Apostles were that wrong and or if Christ could not explain things so that the Apostles could understand...then all of the New Testament falls into the questions, what did they understand? What did they not understand? What else did they get wrong? What else that they wrote was wrong? The concept of, if it make no sense, means it is of God, does not work when you apply it the rest of scriptures. Christ did not return and there is probably a reason, and we will learn that later.

It is better to leave it, because the weird ways of explaining things, then has to be applied to the rest of the scriptures and that would be a mess.

 

[BreadOfLife]

BOL you have to pick a better answer than that. lol
the entire first TEN verses in this chapter are about not despairing over the fact that the Lord has not yet returned.

Are you trying to say that the scriptures are alluding to that fact that Christ did not return because He cannot tell time?
Christians have been asking that question for 2000 ~ years. How does the last days and last times and the time has been shortened and come quickly mean 2000 plus years. If the Apostles were that wrong and or if Christ could not explain things so that the Apostles could understand...then all of the New Testament falls into the questions, what did they understand? What did they not understand? What else did they get wrong? The concept of, if it make no sense, means it is of God, does not work when you apply it the rest of scriptures. Christ did not return and there is probably a reason, and we will learn that later.

I don't really know where you're going with this.
Suffice it to say that you are completely misrepresenting what I have said.

I explicitly stated that this passage is NOT about God not being able to tell time, or even express it - as YOU indicated in post #3426.
I said that it is about God being OUTSIDE of time. He is not bound by time the way WE are. The writer is telling his readers that regardless of their expectations of when the Lord is "supposed to" return - He will return on HIS terms and NOT theirs.

I honestly don't know why you're arguing about this.
the text is as plain as the nose on your face . . .

 

[Grailhunter]

I don't really know where you're going with this.
Suffice it to say that you are completely misrepresenting what I have said.

I explicitly stated that this passage is NOT about God not being able to tell time, or even express it - as YOU indicated in post #3426.
I said that it is about God being OUTSIDE of time. He is not bound by time the way WE are. The writer is telling his readers that regardless of their expectations of when the Lord is "supposed to" return - He will return on HIS terms and NOT theirs.

I honestly don't know why you're arguing about this.
the text is as plain as the nose on your face . . .

lol Ya right! If you would have said that in the first place I would have just agreed with you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

lol Ya right! If you would have said that in the first place I would have just agreed with you.

I did.
You need to pay attention . . .

 

[Grailhunter]

I did.
You need to pay attention . . .

I was!

 

[RogerDC]

When did God remove free will?
This is not even a free will issue

It is a free will issue - without free will you cannot choose to love. That's why God gave humans free will - so that they could choose to love Him or not.

If you use your free will to love, then according to your own theology, that means you are using your "own power" to obey God's commandment to love others, which according to you is trying to "earn your salvation", isn't it?

I have no capacity to love UNTIL God loves me.

What? Are you saying that before you became a believer, you had no capacity to love? If so, you must have something wrong with you. You're saying that as a infant growing up, you had no love for anyone, not even your mother. How very odd.

Atheists fall in love all the time, get married and have children whom they love. Please explain how they can love without God.​

It is his love that empowers me to love others.

If you had no love in you before God came along, then doesn't that mean whatever "love" you have now is not yours, but God's?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Satan couldn't change God's grace, so ever since the first century he just had his slaves change the definition of grace into unmerited favor. So now for the past 2000 years, every time someone sees the word grace, they do not see the power of God given to man. No! They've turned grace of God into lasciviousness and licentiousness - a license to sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It is a free will issue - without free will you cannot choose to love. That's why God gave humans free will - so that they could choose to love Him or not.

If you use your free will to love, then according to your own theology, that means you are using your "own power" to obey God's commandment to love others, which according to you is trying to "earn your salvation", isn't it?

No, Our discussion is not a free will issue. I am not a fatalists. I believe in free will

What? Are you saying that before you became a believer, you had no capacity to love? If so, you must have something wrong with you. You're saying that as a infant growing up, you had no love for anyone, not even your mother. How very odd.

Before I was saved, all I could do was sin.. I could not love in the way God demanded me to love, I could love in a human way, But God calls us to love much deeper than this

The bible says we love BECAUSE God first loved us

Atheists fall in love all the time, get married and have children whom they love. Please explain how they can love without God.​

Your stuck on human love, Get off that bandwagon and jump on the love God calls you to give based on the love he has given you. WHich is far deeper than human love. ​

if you had no love in you before God came along, then doesn't that mean whatever "love" you have now is not yours, but God's?

yawn

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Satan couldn't change God's grace, so ever since the first century he just had his slaves change the definition of grace into unmerited favor. So now for the past 2000 years, every time someone sees the word grace, they do not see the power of God given to man. No! They've turned grace of God into lasciviousness and licentiousness - a license to sin.

More people have turned Gods grace to legalism than have ever turned his grace to licentiousness

its funny how most of the epistles in the NT fight legalistic thinking, and just a few small parts speak of licentiousness.

There is a reason.

 

[Illuminator]

I repented appriximately 40 years ago. And this lead me to faith i Christ. I have been following him for the most part ever since.

I could find stuff on all kinds of churches, Does it mean they are hated.

Prety much every catholic I even try to have a discussion with, goes to the "Hate" card when I try to have any discussion concerning anything they believe. even if the only thing I did was share my belief, and was not even talking to them (notice I said almost. Not all have done this, I have had some meaningful conversations with catholics who do not get so offended when someone disagrees with them)

Your one of the very few.. In fact, your the only catholic I have ever met who has said this.. And I know MANY

I have had quite a few discussions with a few Catholics here. I would say the hate and attacks have been toward myself and others. Not towards them. But they are the ones who are screaming hate and that they are being attacked

I will say this, I am confident in my faith, But also know. I am still learning. If I get ffended because someone disagrees with me, Well then I have issues I need to respolve

But I do not want to argue this, Would you like to discuss the word? or will you be offended if I disagree with you?

Of course not. I enjoy a good debate. I get offended when explanations opposing stupid insults are met with resistance. Not understanding is one thing, refusing to understand is something else. Mary worship, paganism, works salvation, false gospel, idolatry and other such insane canards is not discussion or disagreement, it's persecution. Why bother making reports when they always go ignored?
For example, do you think the "goodness of abortion" belongs in a supposed Christian forum? Should the SDA and JW's and ignorant fundamentalist's be free to post page upon page attacking Catholicism with all manner of lies, while my threads get closed?

 

[CharismaticLady]

More people have turned Gods grace to legalism than have ever turned his grace to licentiousness

its funny how most of the epistles in the NT fight legalistic thinking, and just a few small parts speak of licentiousness.

There is a reason.

How is grace legalism?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of course not. I enjoy a good debate. I get offended when explanations opposing stupid insults are met with resistance. Not understanding is one thing, refusing to understand is something else. Mary worship, paganism, works salvation, false gospel, idolatry and other such insane canards is not discussion or disagreement, it's persecution. Why bother making reports when they always go ignored?
For example, do you think the "goodness of abortion" belongs in a supposed Christian forum? Should the SDA and JW's and ignorant fundamentalist's be free to post page upon page attacking Catholicism with all manner of lies, while my threads get closed?

I would agree, Mary worship, Paganism, Idolatry, is quite a stupid discussion to have, and is never goin gto convince anyone, and could be seen as an attack.

As for false gospel or works salvation. When this is not just a catholic/protestant debate, as many many churches and denominations are claimed to also follow what is called a works based salvation. or a false gospel. So this would not be just an attack on a catholic. But a discussion on differing views between two different gospels..

Also remember, Just calling someone a "protestant" insists that they are protesting something. In this case, your church. So in essence calling someone a protestant could be considered an insult or an attack.

I can think of other ways Catholics appear to attack others. But that's not the issue here.

The issue is why do people think you believe in a works gospel? But we can never discuss this, Because yuo consider it an attack, and in doing so. You will never be able to hear what the other is saying. You will do as any person who is beinig attacked would do. COme with your hand up apposing those you think are attacking you.

That is not good. for either side..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How is grace legalism?

Grace is no legalism

But people turn it to legalism, by making it something to be earned, Not a gift of God. which could never be earned.

There are three basic gospels in all the earth

1. Licentiousness - also called easy believing. A person says some sinners prayer, and magically they are saved and can live the way they always lived, because they are now saved (no faith in God is involved)

2. Grace through faith alone. Salvation is based on a person who has come to the end of him or herself. and become poor in spirit. To the point they have repented. and trust Gods plan of salvation. They call out to God to have mercy on them, knowing they are wretched souls. They are born again, and start a lifetime journey of being made Christlike

3. Legalism - Salvation starts with repenting, and coming to God in the spirit. but this salvation must be maintained or perfected by the flesh (works of commission or omission (not sinning or failing to live a righteous life)) and if these things are not done. Then the salvation can be lost. Including the thought that continued believe in ones own power is required.

If we look at all of the worlds religions (Christianity included) we will see most of them are number 3. We would call that trying to enter through the wide gate.

edit

I might add. In christian circles. All three gospels are called Gospels of Grace

 

[CharismaticLady]

But people turn it to legalism, by making it something to be earned, Not a gift of God. which could never be earned.

I've been on forums for years, and never has anyone said grace must be earned. But I do agree that grace is a gift of the power of God to strengthen you where you are weak. This is why God's grace was sufficient in Paul's weakness in dealing with the discouragement of false teachers.