The New Jerusalem - Who's in it - Who's outside ?

[Stan]

Yes their are people saved AFTER Jesus' return. Israelites, and those who do NOT take the mark of the beast. Then after the 1000 year reign of Jesus, only those who follow Satan after he is released will be condemned. They are the children of those who started the 1000 year reign. There are none saved AFTER the Throne of Judgment.

 

[Elle]

[font=Helvetica Neue'][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Hi Stan,
I've been doing some research in regards to what you had said about Revelation 20 & 21 and now see that as truth. However, since I am posting this, I might as well go step by step through the comment you posted in reply to my post #17, only because I felt that you put words in my mouth that I never said. I mean no disrespect.

You stated:
"I'm sorry but your understanding here is wrong. There is NO 'general book of life' and nobody is saved AFTER Jesus returns, which is before His Judgment Throne."
I didn't say they were saved AFTER Yeshua's return, I said they have the potential to earn eternal life, which is not the same as saved. Revelation 21:24 all ready states they are saved. And yes, there are 2 books of life. Only those inside the city are written in the Lamb's Book of Life, the outsiders are written in the book of life.

"As I explained in post #15, Rev 21 reiterates what transpired in Rev 20 but with more detail."
I now agree!


"The Tree of Life and the leaves are NOT symbolic."
Yes they are, the whole Book of Revelation is symbolic. The TOL is the knowledge of God, those granted eternal life are the leaves that grow from eating the fruit of the TOL. Similar to Yeshua being the root and we are the branches.

"It reflects what God brought back into being which existed in Gen 1 prior to the fall of man."
Exactly, knowledge of God, which we bring forth to those outside.

"There is no indication one way or the other that the Tree of Life in Genesis, ceased to exist. Genesis only shows in Gen 3:24, that God placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."
I never said it ceased to exist.

"This is the SAME Tree of Life, that is identified in Rev 22:2, along with the river of life running thorough it."
No disagreement there.
.
You will also notice that the curses God placed on the serpent in Gen 3:14 and the ground in Gen 3:17 are now gone as depicted in Rev 22:3.
Something I failed to notice before, but it says there is "no more CURSE", not curses. Satan still remains the lowliest being and still has to be released a 1000 years later to deceive the nations once more, I would think his curse is still intact seeing he is destroyed along with those who align with him. He is just not here to tempt people during that 1000 years, so in that respect there would be "no more curse", yet Satan still retains his.

You said this in above post: They are the children of those who started the 1000 year reign. There are none saved AFTER the Throne of Judgment.

These are the descendants of Gog/Magog, the people who fought at Armageddon. Ezekiel 39 is the Gog war at the end of the 1000 years. Ezekiel 38 is the Gog war just before the 1000 years. Bookends if you will, they are not in chronological order. Ezekiel 39 takes place when both the house of Israel and Judah are brought back together. Ezekiel 38 is before they are brought back together. God leaves 1/6 of those who come against Yeshua alive to fight another day. The 1000 years starts off with burying their dead for 7 months and burning their weapons as fuel for 7 years. You need not believe what I am saying, but search out the matter for yourself.[/background][/font]

 

[Stan]

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Hi Stan,
I've been doing some research in regards to what you had said about Revelation 20 & 21 and now see that as truth. However, since I am posting this, I might as well go step by step through the comment you posted in reply to my post #17, only because I felt that you put words in my mouth that I never said. I mean no disrespect.

You stated:
"I'm sorry but your understanding here is wrong. There is NO 'general book of life' and nobody is saved AFTER Jesus returns, which is before His Judgment Throne."
I didn't say they were saved AFTER Yeshua's return, I said they have the potential to earn eternal life, which is not the same as saved. Revelation 21:24 all ready states they are saved. And yes, there are 2 books of life. Only those inside the city are written in the Lamb's Book of Life, the outsiders are written in the book of life.

[/background]


[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Non taken and if I did put words into your mouth, which is kinda hard to do seeing as this is a forum, it was not meant to be so. The good thing about a written forum is that everyone can see if that has been done.[/background]

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]To be clear seeing as I have responded to this a couple of times and may have been to quick, ONLY Jews can be saved AFTER Jesus returns. Rev 7 and 14. Those who go through the tribulation can receive Eternal Life, IF they do not take the mark of the beast. I do not consider this salvation in the sense of confessing Jesus as Saviour.[/background]


Please note my responses are done quoting yours the proper way the site is designed to function. The way you did this is a tad messy and confusing.

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]"The Tree of Life and the leaves are NOT symbolic."
Yes they are, the whole Book of Revelation is symbolic. The TOL is the knowledge of God, those granted eternal life are the leaves that grow from eating the fruit of the TOL. Similar to Yeshua being the root and we are the branches.

[/background]


[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Like the WHOLE Bible, Revelation contains both literal and symbolic text. We must know how it relates to the text within and without the book of Revelation. The TOL is NOT knowledge, is is LIFE, as it's name applies. Please read Gen 3:21-22. The knwoledge that made Adam & Eve like God came from the TOKOGAE, NOT the TOL. The TOL is eaten so that man can live forever as God states in in Gen 3:22. This is the same TOL that is in Rev 22:2 and it only makes sense if eating the fruit from the TOL causes us to live forever, then the leaves from the TOL would heal us from ssickness. I don't question WHY God made it this way, I just accept that He DID.[/background]

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]"It reflects what God brought back into being which existed in Gen 1 prior to the fall of man."
Exactly, knowledge of God, which we bring forth to those outside.

[/background]



Now you’re “putting words in my text”.
We are talking about the TOL, not the TOKOGAE. Knowledge did NOT come from the TOL, it came from the TOKOGAE, which God explicitly said was NOT to be eaten. You are mixing up their functions.

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]"There is no indication one way or the other that the Tree of Life in Genesis, ceased to exist. Genesis only shows in Gen 3:24, that God placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."
I never said it ceased to exist.

[/background]



and I never said you did. I was making the point that it went from the old earth to the new earth.

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]You will also notice that the curses God placed on the serpent in Gen 3:14 and the ground in Gen 3:17 are now gone as depicted in Rev 22:3.
Something I failed to notice before, but it says there is "no more CURSE", not curses. Satan still remains the lowliest being and still has to be released a 1000 years later to deceive the nations once more, I would think his curse is still intact seeing he is destroyed along with those who align with him. He is just not here to tempt people during that 1000 years, so in that respect there would be "no more curse", yet Satan still retains his.

[/background]




God cursed the serpent, NOT Satan. He also cursed the land, but having looked at this more carefully, I conclude that the 'curse' referred to here was the curse of death for ALL life, seeing as it is a NEW earth, made for NEW Eternal beings.

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]You said this in above post: They are the children of those who started the 1000 year reign. There are none saved AFTER the Throne of Judgment.

These are the descendants of Gog/Magog, the people who fought at Armageddon. Ezekiel 39 is the Gog war at the end of the 1000 years. Ezekiel 38 is the Gog war just before the 1000 years. Bookends if you will, they are not in chronological order. Ezekiel 39 takes place when both the house of Israel and Judah are brought back together. Ezekiel 38 is before they are brought back together. God leaves 1/6 of those who come against Yeshua alive to fight another day. The 1000 years starts off with burying their dead for 7 months and burning their weapons as fuel for 7 years. You need not believe what I am saying, but search out the matter for yourself.[/background]

Revelation says what it says. If John used his knowledge of Ezekiel to portray the Revelation God gave him as regards Rev 21 & 22, I cannot know that and no one can unless they assume. I myself do not see this, but I am not a scholar of the OT or Ezekiel. There definitely is NOT a consensus about the relation of these two parts of scripture. To me, Rev 21 & 22 is clear on it's own. If it is meant to complete the prophecies of Ezekiel 38 & 39, I would have to spend much more time studying this, which at this juncture I am not really wanting to do.

 

[Elle]

[font=Helvetica Neue'][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]"Please note my responses are done quoting yours the proper way the site is designed to function. The way you did this is a tad messy and confusing."

I prefer my method, same exact thing minus the box around the quote. Sorry it offends you.


"To be clear seeing as I have responded to this a couple of times and may have been to quick, ONLY Jews can be saved AFTER Jesus returns. Rev 7 and 14. Those who go through the tribulation can receive Eternal Life, IF they do not take the mark of the beast. I do not consider this salvation in the sense of confessing Jesus as Saviour."

[font=Helvetica Neue'][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Actually the 144,000 are not Jews, they are descendants of all 12 tribes. They are Reubenites, Gadites, Ephraimites, etc.. The Judahites only make up 1 of the 13 tribes, Dan, not being amongst the 12 tribes that make up the 144,000.


"Now you’re “putting words in my text”."[/background][/font][/background][/font]

[font="'Helvetica Neue"]Actually I wasn't, I was agreeing with you when I said "Exactly", the other part of my comment was me referring back to when I said " The TOL is the knowledge of God, those granted eternal life are the leaves that grow from eating the fruit of the TOL."[/font]


[font=Helvetica Neue'][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][font=Helvetica Neue'][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]"We are talking about the TOL, not the TOKOGAE. Knowledge did NOT come from the TOL, it came from the TOKOGAE, which God explicitly said was NOT to be eaten. You are mixing up their functions."

Knowledge was the wrong word. I should have referred to the scripture to support my point, but went by memory which was in err. Wisdom is the correct word. Refer to Proverbs 3:13-18, wisdom is a tree of life. This wisdom comes from God.


"God cursed the serpent, NOT Satan. He also cursed the land, but having looked at this more carefully, I conclude that the 'curse' referred to here was the curse of death for ALL life, seeing as it is a NEW earth, made for NEW Eternal beings."

Revelation 20:2 "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years," Satan is the serpent unless you want to argue with God about it. I agree with your second interpretation, that being the curse was death.


"Revelation says what it says. If John used his knowledge of Ezekiel to portray the Revelation God gave him as regards Rev 21 & 22, I cannot know that and no one can unless they assume. I myself do not see this, but I am not a scholar of the OT or Ezekiel. There definitely is NOT a consensus about the relation of these two parts of scripture. To me, Rev 21 & 22 is clear on it's own. If it is meant to complete the prophecies of Ezekiel 38 & 39, I would have to spend much more time studying this, which at this juncture I am not really wanting to do."

Well I am sorry to hear you say that. Proverbs 25:2 - "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter."[/background][/font][/background][/font]

 

[Stan]

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]"Please note my responses are done quoting yours the proper way the site is designed to function. The way you did this is a tad messy and confusing."

I prefer my method, same exact thing minus the box around the quote. Sorry it offends you.


"To be clear seeing as I have responded to this a couple of times and may have been to quick, ONLY Jews can be saved AFTER Jesus returns. Rev 7 and 14. Those who go through the tribulation can receive Eternal Life, IF they do not take the mark of the beast. I do not consider this salvation in the sense of confessing Jesus as Saviour."

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Actually the 144,000 are not Jews, they are descendants of all 12 tribes. They are Reubenites, Gadites, Ephraimites, etc.. The Judahites only make up 1 of the 13 tribes, Dan, not being amongst the 12 tribes that make up the 144,000.


"Now you’re “putting words in my text”."[/background][/background]

Actually I wasn't, I was agreeing with you when I said "Exactly", the other part of my comment was me referring back to when I said " The TOL is the knowledge of God, those granted eternal life are the leaves that grow from eating the fruit of the TOL."


[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]"We are talking about the TOL, not the TOKOGAE. Knowledge did NOT come from the TOL, it came from the TOKOGAE, which God explicitly said was NOT to be eaten. You are mixing up their functions."

Knowledge was the wrong word. I should have referred to the scripture to support my point, but went by memory which was in err. Wisdom is the correct word. Refer to Proverbs 3:13-18, wisdom is a tree of life. This wisdom comes from God.


"God cursed the serpent, NOT Satan. He also cursed the land, but having looked at this more carefully, I conclude that the 'curse' referred to here was the curse of death for ALL life, seeing as it is a NEW earth, made for NEW Eternal beings."

Revelation 20:2 "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years," Satan is the serpent unless you want to argue with God about it. I agree with your second interpretation, that being the curse was death.


"Revelation says what it says. If John used his knowledge of Ezekiel to portray the Revelation God gave him as regards Rev 21 & 22, I cannot know that and no one can unless they assume. I myself do not see this, but I am not a scholar of the OT or Ezekiel. There definitely is NOT a consensus about the relation of these two parts of scripture. To me, Rev 21 & 22 is clear on it's own. If it is meant to complete the prophecies of Ezekiel 38 & 39, I would have to spend much more time studying this, which at this juncture I am not really wanting to do."

Well I am sorry to hear you say that. Proverbs 25:2 - "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter."[/background][/background]

As you are not willing to use the forum the way it is designed, I see no reason to burden myself with addressing any of your concerns.

 

[Elle]

"As you are not willing to use the forum the way it is designed, I see no reason to burden myself with addressing any of your concerns."

That is your free will choice and you need not burden yourself. Don't really see why you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Anyhow, may God Bless you Stan!