The Nicene Creed is not Christian

[mjrhealth]

bout 6 months ago in a dream and this is what He gave me

Joh_3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

The thing is I didnt even know it was in teh bible.

God is good.

 

[mjrhealth]

We cannot have the contradiction from the God of truth that 'no one has ever seen God

No we cannot have God contradicting Himself, but the disciples are not God. Now God is true, Jesus is true even teh Holy Spirit is true, but what does it say of mean about being liars. Of course there is nothing stoppping the scholars who interreted getting it wrong. Seems the wrod in Johsn could also meing Experienced as opposed to looked upon.

ὁράω
horaō
hor-ah'-o
Properly to stare at (compare G3700), that is, (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension to attend to; by Hebraism to experience; passively to appear: - behold, perceive, see, take heed.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes it does. You simply misinterpret it through the dark glass of the doctrines of your denomination.

God had a face that Moses could not see, but he could see God's hand and back. That cannot be disputed. Claiming they are figurative contradicts the obvious and plain context of the event that transpired. If God has no actual face then Moses could not have seen it and not died but the truth is God has a literal face and if Moses saw it he would have literally died. Not a figurative face, not a figurative death.

In Walter Kaiser Jr's commentary on Exodus 24:9-10, he wrote:

That Moses and his company see “the God of Israel” at first appears to contradict 33:20; John 1:18; and 1 Timothy 6:16; but what they see is a “form [‘similitude’] of the Lord” (Nu 12:8), just as Ezekiel (Eze 1:26) and Isaiah (Isa 6:1) saw an approximation, a faint resemblance and a sensible adumbration [foreshadowing] of the incarnate Christ who was to come. There is a deliberate obscurity in the form and details of the one who produced such a splendid, dazzling effect on these observers (Kaiser1990:449).

In Scripture, we will meet passages that speak of God being 'seen' by people such as Abraham, Moses, one of the prophets, or others. We are to understand this as these people seeing either a theophany (a visible manifestation of God), or that they did see God but it was not and could not be the full glory of God. We know that Moses asked for this according to Exodus 33:18 (ESV), 'Please show me your glory'. What was God's reply? 'You cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live' (Ex 33:20 ESV). So, nobody can see the full glory of God. God denied this to Moses and he denies it to everyone else.

We have examples in Scripture of how God made himself known to people in various forms:

(1) For Abraham and Lot it was from passing visitors;
(2) For Moses it was through a burning bush;
(3) The people of Israel encountered a pillar of fire and a cloud.

However, God has made it clear in Scripture that NOBODY can see the pure essence of God and live. God made this blatantly clear to Timothy: '... he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen' (1 Tim 6:15-16 ESV).

This agrees with John 1;18 (ESV), 'No one has ever seen God'. That is, nobody has ever see the pure essence, the full glory of God - ever!

Tim Challies explained that to see God in his pure essence or radiant holiness, is 'like trying to stare at the sun—it cannot be done without destroying your eyes'.

Oz

Works consulted
Kaiser, Jr., W C 1990. Exodus. In The Expositor's Bible Commentary, vol 2, 285-498. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Regency Reference Library (Zondervan Publishing House).

 

[ewq1938]

Manifestations like those in Gen 18:1-2, do NOT depict the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as having a real body, He just manifested a body like He also did with angels.

You contradict yourself because you know you can't deny God's body has been seen.

"do NOT depict the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as having a real body"

"He just manifested a body"


Make up your mind.

 

[OzSpen]

bout 6 months ago in a dream and this is what He gave me

Joh_3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

The thing is I didnt even know it was in teh bible.

God is good.

But you were not exposed to the essence of God, his full glory, because 'no one has ever seen God' (John 1:18 ESV). See my explanation in #564.

 

[ewq1938]

Missed the point, of course God has a face, it is just that if Moses in His fallen state had looked upon it he would have died. So God let Him see Him from behind.

Exactly but some people here can't accept God has a real face and back and hands.

 

[ewq1938]

Interesting isnt it ??

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
Exo 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Hmmmm

Few understand that John 1:18 is talking about fully understanding God not anything about visually seeing God.

 

[OzSpen]

Exactly but some people here can't accept God has a real face and back and hands.

This is a false understanding.

We know that Moses asked for this according to Exodus 33:18 (ESV), 'Please show me your glory'. What was God's reply? 'You cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live' (Ex 33:20 ESV). So, nobody can see the full glory of God. God denied this to Moses and he denies it to everyone else.

So, NOBODY has ever seen the full glory and essence of God. Seeing his face, back and hands in a theophany or real experience does not equal seeing God in his fullness. How do we know? The Scripture tells us so: 'No one has ever seen God' (John 1:18 ESV).

Your view cannot accommodate John 1:18 (ESV) as you are not doing the hard yards of exegesis and exposition in reconciling Scripture in the Bible of truth.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

No, I'm not. I'm exposing your inadequate responses. I have not read anywhere that you stated that nobody can see the full essence, full glory of God. I've not seen you citing and explaining John 1:18 (ESV): 'No one has ever seen God'.

Please explain to me your understanding of John 1:18 (ESV) of nobody having ever seen God. How does that fit your paradigm?

Also, please explain so that I understand your view on Exodus 33:18-20 (ESV) and what God said to Moses: 'And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”'

You claim that people see the face of God but in this verse, God said to Moses: 'You cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live'. Is that a true statement? How is it that you are advocating the seeing of God's face when God told Moses he could not see God's face and live?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

No we cannot have God contradicting Himself, but the disciples are not God. Now God is true, Jesus is true even teh Holy Spirit is true, but what does it say of mean about being liars. Of course there is nothing stoppping the scholars who interreted getting it wrong. Seems the wrod in Johsn could also meing Experienced as opposed to looked upon.

ὁράω
horaō
hor-ah'-o
Properly to stare at (compare G3700), that is, (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension to attend to; by Hebraism to experience; passively to appear: - behold, perceive, see, take heed.

The problem with your using Strong's Concordance for Greek meanings is that it is too broad in its understanding. It is not a specialist Greek lexicon as Arndt & Gingrich (A&G) is. The A&G definition of horao for John 1:18 is: 'see, catch sight of, notice of sense perception.... (on seeing God and its impossibility for mortal man)' (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:581).

So, you blame the scholars who may have gotten it wrong. Do you read and understand NT Greek? Arndt & Gingrich is regarded as the Rolls Royce of Koine Greek lexicons. Of course any scholar can get it wrong, but I'll trust these who have done their homework on understanding the etymology of horao (I see). Thus, it is an impossibility to see God for mortal human beings. That means to see, catch sight of, to notice.

The word does not mean experienced. What do you mean by 'meing'? Did you intend, 'mean'?

For you to indicate that it means 'experienced as opposed to looked upon' would get this meaning from John 1:18 (ESV), 'No one has experienced God', which would be a false meaning as multiple millions around the world since the beginning of time have 'experienced God'.

Oz

Works consulted
Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English Lexicon on the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House).

 

[OzSpen]

Few understand that John 1:18 is talking about fully understanding God not anything about visually seeing God.

That is not the meaning of horao as I've explained in #573.

 

[OzSpen]

I'm withdrawing from this discussion because:

1. It's going nowhere, and
2. It's right off topic.

Sincerely in Christ,
Oz

 

[HammerStone]

And I agree with both #1 and #2. This topic is now closed.

This thread places us in a difficult position, so as I close it out, I will make a few notes for future reference:

I will say that we are decidedly not here to police every single doctrine of the Christian faith. We have a Statement of Faith(SoF) that the team members of this forum agree with, and we believe this to be a reasonable guide on orthodoxy. After all, there are certain issues in which the entire spectrum of Christianity: Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox agree and we see no reason to ignore that agreement. From time to time, we will make case-by-case judgments about a belief or particular set of beliefs and potentially relegate the poster to the Unorthodox forum. These judgments will be reasonably based upon our SoF and should not be a huge surprise in us pulling a strange doctrine out of our collective hats.

That said, we don't see this role as something we get any enjoyment from, rather we do it to protect the many eyes that read threads like this and lurk in the background. These may be new Christians, people searching for faith, or struggling Christians. We take certain errors very seriously in the formation of faith, not because we want to police but because we view getting things reasonably right as part of the true worship of a living and mighty God. As it was going, this thread alone had almost 500 replies and 3,000 views. This means many minds are reading it, so we take that into account.

With that in mind, let me also remark that this is not a place where every little doctrine outside of the mainstream needs to be reported for the member to be demoted or banned. We believe in the importance of orthodoxy, but we also believe in the importance of open discussion for believers and nonbelievers to come to a more mature understanding of the faith. That means that grace should salt our conversations as the Scriptures command and we should not be ready to point out every foible of another. Call error and seek to lovingly correct it, but don't let it get personal. When it gets personal is when the rules of the community here begin to get broken.

Thanks for your attention, grace given, and love! May God bless!