"The only fate is what we make for ourselves." True?

[justbyfaith]

What is the difference between not perishing and being saved?

That is not the focus of the difference that I am describing.

It is "should"...iffy...versus "shall"...which is more absolute.

There is no difference between not perishing and being saved.

 

[WaterSong]

People misunderstand the book of Job bigtime and I can see why. It's a very long and somewhat confusing ride.
I've written on Job a bit: Here's part of it:

Those who use this book to say: “ God will do as He pleases.” are missing the point. Those who use Job to say: “God causes calamity.” have it wrong. To say that God was drawing in the dark shadows of Job’s life seems to me to be borderline blasphemy, and it makes a mockery out of the very real picture of spiritual warfare that is though out scripture. Some assume that Job was right to say that he would accept trials from God, but that is also missing the point. God was not the source of Job’s trials. Maybe what Job should have said was: “God forgive me for blaming my pain on you, even for a moment, when all you have ever brought me is good. God wasn’t drawing in the shadows of Job’s life. He was preventing those shadows from doing their worst. The kind of health and wealth theology that says: “If I live a good life, I will never be attacked by Satan and every thing will be peachy keen.” is one direction that our assumptions about how God works can take us, and Job seemed to have subscribed to that, at least in part, when he kept saying that because he was blameless, he deserved better. Another direction that some go with Job is to assume that it is all about God controlling everything including Satan...

The book of Job is not, I believe, supposed to only teach us that God is in control and we are not. It seems to me that it teaches us how much difference one man’s life can make in this universe, which is the opposite of what many use the book to say. Satan peers over his cards and whines about the game being rigged. So God says, in essence: “Fine, I’ll put everything on Job. I’ll gamble that he really does love me and not just the stuff I’ve given him.”

And although Job whines a bit, and is extremely confused about what God is doing, and what in the devil is going on, he comes through with flying colors. God bets on Job and Job places his bets on God’s goodness, against all odds, in spite of what he feels or how life looks at the moment. He says: “God will see me though in the end. I’ll cast my lot with Him.”

Even the ancient book of Job looks forward to a day when a former murderer and learned pharisee named Saul becomes God’s man, Paul, and Paul looks back at all his Torah learning and understands that Christ has fulfilled all the requirements of the law. And Paul says: “I’ll gamble it all on Jesus and Him crucified. This is where I take my stand.”

Job isn’t about God saying “Shut up, I’m in control here.” It’s about God’s faithfulness to come through in the end for those who truly love him. He might not make us wealthy or wildly successful in this life. We may be poor and blind and naked. But, if we place our bets on Jesus and Him crucified, we can be assured of being part of God’s restoration of creation, to be made new, and shed this old body like a worn out garment.

Maybe what draws so much attention to the trials of Job is that, with regard to all that you've observed there about God, the angel that led the rebellion against him in heaven was not only allowed to live, but was cast down to earth where innocent first humans would be created to live in a garden bearing one tree holding the fruit of sin. And not only that but, that fallen angel was/is allowed to return to heaven from time to time. Which is how he and God had their discussion concerning Job's faithfulness.
However, what I may say about how the story is so interesting and yet confusing to some is, Satan asked God's permission to wreck Job's life in what amounts to a wager concerning Job's faithfulness to God. And God gave Satan that permission.
Satan wasn't permitted to kill Job. But he did kill Job's family. All so that God could win a bet with the angel he cast out of heaven. And then lets back in.
One part of your observation then having that part added to it affords a different perspective than that which you've so elegantly opined.
Job isn’t about God saying “Shut up, I’m in control here.” It’s about God’s faithfulness to come through in the end for those who truly love him. After God allowed his Satanic adversary to completely wreck Job's life and kill his family.

Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

FOOTNOTE:
NET version/sn This verse affirms that God is ultimately sovereign over his world, including mankind and nations. In accordance with his sovereign will, he can cause wars to cease and peace to predominate (as he was about to do for his exiled people through Cyrus), or he can bring disaster and judgment on nations (as he was about to do to Babylon through Cyrus).

 

[WaterSong]

It's brings us to the same conclusion: That everything we do is ultimately without purpose or meaning and we are just cogs in the wheel. The funny thing is, scripture confirms again and again that one man's actions can change history, either for good or evil. Starting with Adam, to Noah and Moses and Abraham, and all the way through, it's people who choose to follow God's leading, although all imperfect humans, that drastically alter the course of history.

One can arrive at their conclusion as they wish. However, if first and foremost someone affirms they believe the Bible is God's word to the human race and is divine and perfect, then I don't believe one can pick and choose what of God's words they believe, because it comports with their predisposition as to who God is, and cast aside what of God's words they choose to ignore, because those conflict with what they are predisposed to accept as what they can live with in faith to God.

Predestined/Predestination, has a precise definition. Sovereign/Sovereignty, has a precise definition. As do, Incorporeality,Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Preeminence, Aseity, Immanence,Immutability, Infinity, Transcendence, Oneness, and Providence.

If any one of those that are just a few of God's characteristics are ignored or denied as attributes of God, is one able to then say they hold faith in the God of the Bible? When just those few attributes are all sustained by scripture.

Often that's what happens in discussions such as this. People say, I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. But then, as in discussions of this nature, they'll concede they don't believe God is this, or that, even when it is in the scriptures.
Do we worship the God of the Bible?
Or the God we prefer to think is what the Bible means to say about him?

 

[friend of]

If God didnt hear the prayers of sinners, then He wouldn't hear anyone's prayers. That verse is talking about God granting the wishes of sinners so they can spend it on their lusts.

 

[WaterSong]

If God didnt hear the prayers of sinners, then He wouldn't hear anyone's prayers. That verse is talking about God granting the wishes of sinners so they can spend it on their lusts.

Where does it say that exactly in the scripture of John 9?

 

[friend of]

Where does it say that exactly in the scripture of John 9?

I'm really not interested in arguing. Do you not think it possible that maybe God takes pity on the sinner that reaches out to Him? Is that an impossibility for Him to do?

 

[Renniks]

After God allowed his Satanic adversary to completely wreck Job's life and kill his family.

But that's got nothing to do with determinism. No one is guaranteed an easy life. Job's actions affected the spiritual realm. He changed history with his integrity.

 

[Renniks]

form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

In context, this is talking about God bringing judgement. Not originally creating evil.

 

[WaterSong]

I'm really not interested in arguing. Do you not think it possible that maybe God takes pity on the sinner that reaches out to Him? Is that an impossibility for Him to do?

It isn't arguing to ask you where what you claimed John 9's verse meant to say is in the scripture itself.

 

[WaterSong]

But that's got nothing to do with determinism. No one is guaranteed an easy life. Job's actions affected the spiritual realm. He changed history with his integrity.

When all things are predestined, it has everything to do with that fact of God, per God's words. God predestined whom he would save.
And that has everything to do with God's Omnipotence.

How did Job's actions affect the spiritual realm?
How did Job change history with his integrity?

 

[justbyfaith]

Satan wasn't permitted to kill Job. But he did kill Job's family. All so that God could win a bet with the angel he cast out of heaven.

God instituted the bet because He had a plane to put Job through the fire so that the impurities in his life might rise to the top so that they could be dealt with and so that God could finish His work of sanctification in Job's life. He merely used satan to turn up the heat.

It should be clear that in Job 32:2, we find that Job's sin, which was not apparent until after his trial with his three friends, was that if his righteousness were to be challenged, he would justify himself rather than God.

Nevertheless, everything that Job spoke to his three friends, in maintaining his righteousness before God, was right (Job 42:7).

Job, in maintaining his righteousness, did not sin. it should be clear that he was not focused on the glory of God in all of that conversation but rather he was defending what he knew...that God had made him righteous. That is what was being attacked by Job's three friends; and Job, in the heat of defending himself, probably did not even realize that he was diminishing the glory of God by his statements.

And of course there was an answer. Job was indeed righteous; and God was not unrighteous. But the people in the conversation were unaware of what was happening behind the scenes; that it was not God who was afflicting Job, but satan.

 

[WaterSong]

8 Bible verses about Predestined Plans

 

[Renniks]

One can arrive at their conclusion as they wish. However, if first and foremost someone affirms they believe the Bible is God's word to the human race and is divine and perfect, then I don't believe one can pick and choose what of God's words they believe, because it comports with their predisposition as to who God is, and cast aside what of God's words they choose to ignore, because those conflict with what they are predisposed to accept as what they can live with in faith to God.

Predestined/Predestination, has a precise definition. Sovereign/Sovereignty, has a precise definition. As do, Incorporeality,Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Preeminence, Aseity, Immanence,Immutability, Infinity, Transcendence, Oneness, and Providence.

If any one of those that are just a few of God's characteristics are ignored or denied as attributes of God, is one able to then say they hold faith in the God of the Bible? When just those few attributes are all sustained by scripture.

Often that's what happens in discussions such as this. People say, I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. But then, as in discussions of this nature, they'll concede they don't believe God is this, or that, even when it is in the scriptures.
Do we worship the God of the Bible?
Or the God we prefer to think is what the Bible means to say about him?

Where does it say God is immutable? God is affected by humanity. If he weren't, the incarnation makes no sense.
There's often different interpretations of God's attributes depending on what Christian sect one is part of, so saying the definitions are precise is debatable. The open theist reads the same Bible as the determininist. He just has different views on certain passages. I find the Calvinist emphasizes certain verses (often with doubtful context)and the Arminian other verses. A person can read the same words and get very different messages, depending on their perspective.

 

[WaterSong]

God instituted the bet because He had a plane to put Job through the fire so that the impurities in his life might rise to the top so that they could be dealt with and so that God could finish His work of sanctification in Job's life. He merely used satan to turn up the heat.

It should be clear that in Job 32:2, we find that Job's sin, which was not apparent until after his trial with his three friends, was that if his righteousness were to be challenged, he would justify himself rather than God.

Nevertheless, everything that Job spoke to his three friends, in maintaining his righteousness before God, was right (Job 42:7).

Job, in maintaining his righteousness, did not sin. it should be clear that he was not focused on the glory of God in all of that conversation but rather he was defending what he knew...that God had made him righteous. That is what was being attacked by Job's three friends; and Job, in the heat of defending himself, probably did not even realize that he was diminishing the glory of God by his statements.

And of course there was an answer. Job was indeed righteous; and God was not unrighteous. But the people in the conversation were unaware of what was happening behind the scenes; that it was not God who was afflicting Job, but satan.

Yes, we know it was Satan that was afflicting Job and testing his faith. What is missed it seems is when we turn away from realizing, this occurred because God gave Satan permission to afflict Job. Even to the point of killing his family.

Why would God conspire with his adversary, the enemy, Satan just to teach Job a lesson?

 

[WaterSong]

In context, this is talking about God bringing judgement. Not originally creating evil.

Who created free will?

 

[justbyfaith]

Why would God conspire with his adversary, the enemy, Satan just to teach Job a lesson?

I already told you the reason why. Maybe you should re-read my post.

 

[WaterSong]

Where does it say God is immutable?

im·mu·ta·ble
/i(m)ˈmyo͞odəb(ə)l/adjective

1. unchanging over time or unable to be changed.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Malachi 3:6
For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.
What Does the Bible Say About Immutable God?

God is affected by humanity. If he weren't, the incarnation makes no sense.

Why is that?

There's often different interpretations of God's attributes depending on what Christian sect one is part of, so saying the definitions are precise is debatable. The open theist reads the same Bible as the determininist. He just has different views on certain passages. I find the Calvinist emphasizes certain verses (often with doubtful context)and the Arminian other verses. A person can read the same words and get very different messages, depending on their perspective.

This isn't about sects. This is about God's own words describing himself, as is evidenced in the scriptures above with regard to God's immutability.

What happens when the Christian chooses to say, they believe God's word, and then presume to state his words don't really mean what he said?
Pick a source for study. All one has to do is commit to the research. Bible God predesines everything - Google Search

 

[Renniks]

When all things are predestined, it has everything to do with that fact of God, per God's words. God predestined whom he would save.
And that has everything to do with God's Omnipotence.

How did Job's actions affect the spiritual realm?
How did Job change history with his integrity?

First, all things are not predestined, so...you misunderstood what is predestined.

There's several theories among Calvinist and several among free will advocates;

Historically Arminians believe:

This is: All freely chose to disregard God and hate him. Then God looked into the future to see who would one day of free will choose Him and then, as a result, predestined to save only those. Salvation is based on two things, Gods grace AND us having a better free will response to God than our neighbor.

Corporate predestination:
All freely chose to disregard God and hate him. Then God predestined to save a group through Christ. This view doesn’t deal with predestining individuals but predestining salvation in general. So basically whenever the Bible speaks of predestination, it only refers to the fact that God predestined to save people through Jesus before the beginning of time. According to this view, individuals are not chosen one-by-one, instead God chose to have “a church” or “a bride” for Jesus before the beginning of time.
Open theist view:
The Lord could know from the start that he would certainly have a bride on the basis of his perfect knowledge of his own character and ability. He is the Lord of love who refuses to give up. Even if it were possible for entire generations completely to rebel against him, the Lord knew before he entered into this plan that he was willing to do whatever it took and to work for however long it might take to see his creation bear the fruit he was seeking.
God is determined—he has predestined—that there would be a bride, and he will not give up until this goal is achieved.

 

[Renniks]

Lol, so you're believing what Google tells you?
Um yeah, God's character is unchanging. That does not mean he cannot change his mind. And obviously Jesus did change physically. If humans had no affect on God why would God humble himself and become one?

 

[Renniks]

Who created free will?

It's not a created thing imo. It's the natural result of God wanting a relationship with his creation.