The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist
- Thread starter Arthur81
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You didn't answer the question.
Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
What nation is that?
Because it's non-sequitor.
Do you see how God prophesied the preservation of Israel, the ethnic nation?
Much love!
Last edited:
Yes, I've seen charts and such of up to 11 dispensations. I think that's a bit much!
Much love!
No. Whether or not God takes the His kingdom from Israel to give to another nation is non-sequitor to whether or not Israel continues to remain a nation before God. He can remove His kingdom from them while continuing to hold them as a nation, just as He promised:
Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
Much love!
The nation in Matthew 21:43 is a non-sequitur?
Have you told the Holy Spirit who inspired it?
God promised that that Israel would remain a nation before Him as long as the sun and moon rose and set. Do you believe God's promise?
Much love!
I'm not asking about Israel. I'm asking about the identity of the nation in Matthew 21:43.
Why don't you know it?
Whether or not God takes the His kingdom from Israel to give to another nation is non-sequitur to whether or not Israel continues to remain a nation before God. He can remove His kingdom from them while continuing to hold them as a nation, just as He promised:
Much love!
You are off my topic here . . . and you have not responded to my content. If you have something to say feel free, but I'm not interested in diverting from what I'm saying at this point.
Much love!
Truth7t7
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2014
- 10,854
- 3,275
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
I Disagree, as you have been clearly shown, the early church fathers described in detail, John wrote the Revelation while in prison at Patmos, under the rule of Emperor Domitian 81AD-96AD, your claim of 70AD fails
You're speaking on behalf of the reformed preterist eschatology today, that has run rampant after the reformation, and it doesn't hold what you call is orthodoxy, I strongly disagree
The physical nation of Israel ceased to be a physical nation multiple times during its OT exiles for apostasy and during the many centuries after 70 AD. It is not the Israel which satisfies God's declaration in Jeremiah 31.
There is only one Israel which satisfies His declaration. It is the spiritual Israel of those who remained faithful and obedient to Him in the OT while the physical nation apostasized; and the Holy Nation to whom He gave His Kingdom in the NT: His Church. Matthew 21:43, 1 Peter 2:9.
What you're saying and what God is saying are diametrically opposed.
Last edited:
Last edited:
I'm going to keep pointing you back to this.
Either this passage is true, or God is a liar. I believe it's true.
Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
Much love!
Well, to be fair, none of us knows who all is included in God's Nation, Israel.
What I think you to be saying (to Marks and others) is that God's Israel is a people, not a physical country, or nation, not a place on the map. And if so, I wholeheartedly agree. Certainly we can read many passages and see this, but nowhere more clear than what Paul writes in Romans:"For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God" (Romans 2:28-29).
"...not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring... What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed He says in Hosea, 'Those who were not my people I will call "my people," and her who was not beloved I will call "beloved"'" (Romans 9:6-8, 22-26).
"Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened... salvation has come to the Gentiles... some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree... And even (ethnic Jews), if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again... Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (Romans 11:7-26)
Absolutely.
Grace and peace to you.
Well, I think calling the "isms" of men is really at least a bit misleading. Not that anyone is trying to be misleading, but it's just a way of classifying human understandings of things. As for dispensationalism ~ and let's just call it dispensational theology ~ the... well, on the other side of the fence is covenantal theology. Both fall under the broader category of theology, which is, by definition, not of man but of God... the study of the nature of God. And I'll just say, to make a long story short, at least for now...
... that we worship a covenant-making God. And also that that one Covenant does not change, but is revealed in cumulative and better ways in the form of what we might call lesser covenants (Adamic, Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic) until we see it's final, full fruition in the Person Christ Jesus. I think you agree, which makes you a... "Covenantist," or "Covenantalist," I guess... And just to say... I've heard dispensationalism facetiously referred to as "God's series of Plan Bs." That's... pretty accurate...
Yeah, I mean, throughout history, I don't think God was up there in heaven at various times saying, "Well shoot, that didn't work, so let's try this..." Anyway, yeah, no, there was never any need for even one "Plan B"... Interesting question...
Grace and peace to all!
No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
Was it the Jewish people that the saying, bless those that bless you - curse those that curse you, or was it directed to the sons of God (believers whether Jew or Gentile) ?
Where is its fulfillment found and in whom?
Apparently you don't know who did not "cease from being a nation before God for ever".
But God knows.
Similar threads
