The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist

[covenantee]

Context, my friend, will answer all of your questions.

Hebrews 10:6-14 KJV
6) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8) Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11) And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The first, is the sacrifice that cannot remove sins, and leaves them in rememberence of their sins. The second is the sacrifice that perfects forever them that are sanctified.

This does not abrogate God's promise to Israel given through so many of the prophets, that God would keep them throughout the centuries, to be returned to their promised land in faith and salvation when Jesus comes in power and glory.

Much love!

You said "The true understanding doesn't require that you negate any parts of the Bible.".

When Jesus took away the first, i.e. animal sacrifices, did He negate them?

 

[covenantee]

That didn't end the nation of Israel. And in the Great Tribulation a great many will die, but on behalf of the Chosen, Israel, God has cut short the affliction lest all flesh would die.

God promised to preserve the nation, but He did not promise certain individuals on the wide scale.

And it's not my message, I'm quoting God's Own Words, to you.

Much love!

They were God's chosen people, but He slew them.

Why would He do that to His chosen people?

 

[PinSeeker]

Who is Isreal, in your opinion, Marks? Nobody here (I hope) advocates God having "abrogated" or changed His promises or to whom they are made, and (again, I hope) everyone here would fully acknowledge that all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus. So, again ~ this seems to be the issue ~ who is Israel?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

They were God's chosen people, but He slew them.

Why would He do that to His chosen people?

The passage tells you why. And it wasn't the only time. Even so, He has preserved His Chosen Nation of Israel exactly as He has promised, and will continue to do so.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

When Jesus took away the first, i.e. animal sacrifices, did He negate them?

How would you answer that question, Covenantee?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

You said "The true understanding doesn't require that you negate any parts of the Bible.".

When Jesus took away the first, i.e. animal sacrifices, did He negate them?

We are running in circles. I've said what I have to say. God promised to Israel, has never revoked that promise, and never will.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

The passage tells you why.

Yes. Because of their sin.

Their chosenness did not immunize them from God's penalty for sin.

 

[covenantee]

How would you answer that question, Covenantee?

Grace and peace to you.

Of course He negated them.

How would you answer that question?

 

[marks]

Who is Isreal, in your opinion, Marks? Nobody here (I hope) advocates God having "abrogated" or changed His promises or to whom they are made, and (again, I hope) everyone here would fully acknowledge that all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus. So, again ~ this seems to be the issue ~ who is Israel?

Grace and peace to you.

What would Jeremiah have answered when God gave Him His prophecy?

God's promises have their answer in Christ, and not to the negation of the promise. His promises are yes! Not no!

Who was it God was speaking of when He said,

Jeremiah 31:31-40 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
38) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39) And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40) And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

Read this passage and ask, What is God promising to whom, and what is the location this concerns? What exactly is being promised?

Some have the idea that God cast off the people whom He addressed in this passage, but God says that will never be, so long as the sun and moon rise, so long as you cannot measure the heavens, or visit the center of the earth.

Where is the ambiguity on this passage? I don't see any! Only the ironclad promise of God. And if He won't keep His promised to His Chosen Nation, Israel, what makes you think He will keep His promise to you?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes. Because of their sin.

Their chosenness did not immunize them from God's penalty for sin.

Certainly that is true, and even so, though God killed so many, He did not kill them all. And He never has. And He never will. Nor will He allow someone else to kill them all. He's promised. And He is true.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

He as much as said there is nothing they could do that would cause God to cast them off.

Did He say that about the 24,000 (and tens of thousands of others that He slew on other occasions)?

 

[covenantee]

Certainly that is true, and even so, though God killed so many, He did not kill them all. And He never has. And He never will. Nor will He allow someone else to kill them all. He's promised. And He is true.

Much love!

He killed those who apostasized into unfaithfulness and disobedience.

He didn't kill those who remained faithful and obedient to Him.

They were His True Chosen People.

Spiritual Israel.

Now since Calvary, in His New Will and Testament, His Church.

 

[PinSeeker]

Of course He negated them.

How would you answer that question?

I would strongly disagree. As I said above... well, I'll just quote Paul in 2 Corinthians 1:20 ~

"For all the promises of God find their Yes in (Christ Jesus). That is why it is through Him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory."​

Regarding Hebrews 10, that God "negated" the method of sin offerings (made it obsolete, because it never actually made anything perfect; we see that in Hebrews 7:18-22 ~

"...a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God... this makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant."​

Would you not agree with that?

So, I asked Marks above, and so I will ask you ~ and I think you answered this before, or we agreed: Who is Isreal, in your opinion?

Grace and peace to you!

 

[marks]

Did He say that about the 24,000 (and tens of thousands of others that He slew on other occasions)?

Again . . . like I said . . . circles . . . God did not promise the preservation of particular individuals for the most part, but He did promise the preservation of the nation, as He is doing.

Even though so many have done so much wrong, even to the point of killing Jesus, God has done, and will continue to do, that which He promised.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

What would Jeremiah have answered when God gave Him His prophecy?

God's promises have their answer in Christ, and not to the negation of the promise. His promises are yes! Not no!

Who was it God was speaking of when He said,

Jeremiah 31:31-40 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
38) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39) And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40) And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

Read this passage and ask, What is God promising to whom, and what is the location this concerns? What exactly is being promised?

Some have the idea that God cast off the people whom He addressed in this passage, but God says that will never be, so long as the sun and moon rise, so long as you cannot measure the heavens, or visit the center of the earth.

Where is the ambiguity on this passage? I don't see any! Only the ironclad promise of God. And if He won't keep His promised to His Chosen Nation, Israel, what makes you think He will keep His promise to you?

Much love!

You didn't answer my question... Yes, he's speaking to His Israel, His chosen nation, but, again, who is Israel? Maybe you're answering in some really roundabout way... You might notice the passage from Hebrews 1 that I have quoted in my signature below...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

I would strongly disagree. As I said above... well, I'll just quote Paul in 2 Corinthians 1:20 ~

"For all the promises of God find their Yes in (Christ Jesus). That is why it is through Him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory."​

Regarding Hebrews 10, that God "negated" the method of sin offerings (made it obsolete, because it never actually made anything perfect; we see that in Hebrews 7:18-22 ~

"...a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God... this makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant."​

Would you not agree with that?

So, I asked Marks above, and so I will ask you ~ and I think you answered this before, or we agreed: Who is Isreal, in your opinion?

Grace and peace to you!

Certainly agree. God's True Chosen Israel has only ever been those who were faithful and obedient to Him.

No others.

 

[marks]

You didn't answer my question... Yes, he's speaking to His Israel, His chosen nation, but, again, who is Israel? Maybe you're answering in some really roundabout way... You might notice the passage from Hebrews 1 that I have quoted in my signature below...

Grace and peace to you.

I'm sorry, I have "sigs" turned off.

Who is Israel? I believe the answers are found in contexts. God made a promise to a people-group known by the national name, Israel. God will keep His promise to that people-group, Israel.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm sorry, I have "sigs" turned off.

Who is Israel? I believe the answers are found in contexts. God made a promise to a people-group known by the national name, Israel. God will keep His promise to that people-group, Israel.

Much love!

With all due respect, Marks, this is a non-answer. You still have not answered my question.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

With all due respect, Marks, this is a non-answer. You still have not answered my question.

Grace and peace to you.

I believe this addresses what we are speaking about. Isn't your question, "To whom will God keep His promises?" He will keep them towards whom they were made.

Your assertion seems to be that the New Testament Church is now the group once known as "Israel", and therefore all promises to historical Israel - ethnic Israel, that is, the children of Jacob - are to be fulfilled towards the New Testament Church. Do I understand your POV on this?

I'm saying that God's promise to historical Israel - the children of Jacob - was made in such a way as to eliminate that possibility. That God declared this particular nation to be His Elect Nation from among all the others, in the way we commonly understand "nation". As a nation, God gave them the land promised to Abraham. He kept His promise to Abraham, giving the land to his children.

God had reaffirmed His promise to Isaac and to Jacob. And God kept these promises, exactly as they had been given. That's how God keeps promises, no games, no tricks, only a True and Honest God.

Your POV, if I understand you correctly, is that those to whom the promise was given will not receive the benefit of the promise, but others will. I'm saying that those to whom the promise was given will receive what was promised.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

I believe this addresses what we are speaking about.

Well, we'll see...

Isn't your question, "To whom will God keep His promises?"

Not really, no.

He will keep them towards whom they were made.

LOL! Well of course! Goodness gracious. Do you think you're answering my question, Marks? Or are you avoiding it? I agree with what you say here, but wouldn't anybody?

Your assertion seems to be that the New Testament Church is now the group once known as "Israel", and therefore all promises to historical Israel - ethnic Israel, that is, the children of Jacob - are to be fulfilled towards the New Testament Church. Do I understand your POV on this?

Nope. That is, though, the way it often gets characterized... mischaracterized or misunderstood, actually. But now you're answering my question... in a skirting sort of way...

I'm saying that God's promise to historical Israel - the children of Jacob - was made in such a way as to eliminate that possibility. That God declared this particular nation to be His Elect Nation from among all the others, in the way we commonly understand "nation".

Ah. Well, what I'm saying, really, Marks ~ and now I'll say it outright ~ is that you seem to have a wrong idea who Israel is... who it includes, now, which really answers what you just said above about the New Testament Church now being the group once known as Israel, which is true, actually, but in a different sense ~ not in the sense of replacement ~ than you apparently mean it. Do you not believe you are a son of Abraham, as it were, Marks? You said you were not able to see my signature because you have them turned off, so, okay, it contains a quote from Hebrews, Hebrews 1:1-4, which backs up what I am saying, the underlined part especially:

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by his Son..."

As a nation, God gave them the land promised to Abraham. He kept His promise to Abraham, giving the land to his children. God had reaffirmed His promise to Isaac and to Jacob. And God kept these promises, exactly as they had been given.

I agree. But what this pointed to, Marks ~ foreshadowed ~ was the greater land promise of all of His Israel... greater Israel, all of His elect, an innumerable multitude hailing from every tongue, tribe and nation, all in Christ, true Jews, as Paul describes them in Romans 2:28-29... the earth, as in, as Jesus Himself said, "the meek shall inherit the earth."

That's how God keeps promises, no games, no tricks, only a True and Honest God.

Well, yes, of course... <eye roll>

Your POV, if I understand you correctly, is that those to whom the promise was given will not receive the benefit of the promise, but others will.

No, Marks, with all due respect, you understand me very much incorrectly. See above. You may still disagree, but perhaps that it no longer the case.

I'm saying that those to whom the promise was given will receive what was promised.

Of course. We agree on that. I'm not sure if you're Jewish or not; it matters not. But if you are in Christ, you are included in those to whom God made all His promises, which all have their Yes and Amen in Christ Jesus.

Grace and peace to you, my friend!