The Pillar and Ground of the Truth

[Enow]

Cherry picking one paragraph from the Catechism without providing a link to the full context IS DISHONEST.
CCC - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3
Doing good works for salvation is an insulting lie. The historic Church deemed it a heresy 1000 years before the first Protestant was born.
As usual, McCarthy (along with many other Calvinist anti-Catholics) is unwilling or unable to understand the relationship of human free will to God’s grace. We believe we can cooperate with God’s grace in order to “merit.” Yet that very merit is itself completely an act of God’s grace. Here is some more relevant information to consider:
Catholic Merit vs. Distorted Caricatures (James McCarthy)

I gave you a link. I even gave you the number to find that quote.

So I shall provide the link again and cite # 837 with a bold and underlined for you to scroll down to that section of that web page.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

" 837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321 "

Now I am asking you how I am taking that out of context as to mean a Catholic is not saved yet? Do the words say that or not? Why say that if it did not really meant that?

Maybe you have a different Catholic Catechism. Feel free to share it online for what it says at #837.

 

[Philip James]

Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321 "

Whoever says he is in the light, yet hates his brother, is still in the darkness.

Whoever loves his brother remains in the light, and there is nothing in him to cause a fall.


Seems to me that 'persevering in charity' is indeed necessary..

Peace be with you!

 

[Enow]

Whoever says he is in the light, yet hates his brother, is still in the darkness.

Whoever loves his brother remains in the light, and there is nothing in him to cause a fall.


Seems to me that 'persevering in charity' is indeed necessary..

Peace be with you!

For abiding in Him as His disciple; not for obtaining salvation.

All an erring believer has to do is ask the Lord for help to not hate his brother but love him with His love which He will provide and that believer will be walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son again.

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

[Philip James]

All an erring believer has to do is ask the Lord for help to not hate his brother but love him with His love which He will provide and that believer will be walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son again.

Well that certainly sounds like persevering in charity to me...

Peace be with you!

 

[Illuminator]

I gave you a link. I even gave you the number to find that quote.

So I shall provide the link again and cite # 837 with a bold and underlined for you to scroll down to that section of that web page.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

" 837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321 "

Now I am asking you how I am taking that out of context as to mean a Catholic is not saved yet? Do the words say that or not? Why say that if it did not really meant that?

Maybe you have a different Catholic Catechism. Feel free to share it online for what it says at #837.

You are abusing the Catechism. One paragraph does not teach what you are forcing to to say. The focus of the section is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic, which is how the Church defines herself. The section is not a treatise on salvation. Why don't you explain how anyone can be saved who have no love. And you avoid paragraphs 817-820 because it doesn't match up with your agenda.

1 Corinthians 13 If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Catholics can be certain of their salvation, but no where does the Bible give infallible certainty of salvation, that is a man made tradition invented by Luther and Calvin.

Question: Are Catholics "saved"?

Probably most of us have heard some variation of this before: "Are you saved?" or "I used to be Catholic, but then I got saved."

What's the Catholic response? Firstly, in the strictest sense, we are not saved until we die. Salvation happens when we die. Period. For salvation means that we are united with Christ in heaven.

So I find the question "are you saved?" puzzling and peculiar.

But, I also understand the question. What's also being asked by Evangelical Christians is if we know with any certainty that we are going to heaven. And the answer comes from St. Paul: “I do not judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.”-1 Cor 4:3-4.

Salvation is a process. We get "saved" when we are born again at baptism (baptism now saves you, says St. Peter in 1 Peter 3:21); we are saved continuously throughout our lives, and we hope to be saved in the end on judgment day.

Thus, we can have a moral assurance of our salvation (that is, Christ offers us the hope of our salvation through his atoning death on the cross), but we do not know with an absolute certainty if we are saved. But if we are saved, it is not through any works that we have done, (and it is not by "being a good person") but by saying Yes to the Divine Marriage Proposal of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (that is, heaven) through our cooperation with God's salvific grace.

Catholics profess that we "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" -Phil 2:12, as St. Paul states. We proclaim that salvation is a process: we were saved (once, 2000 years ago by Christ's atoning death on the cross, and at the moment of our baptism), we are being saved (every day when we turn our hearts, minds and souls towards God) and we hope to be saved (when we die and say yes!).

Scripture reiterates the above:

• I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8),
• but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),
• and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15).

(Note: even though we "work" out our salvation with fear and trembling, as St. Paul professes, this ought not be mistaken for thinking that Catholics must perform "works" in order to get to heaven. This is something we Catholics are often accused of believing. Not true at all. This heresy called Pelagianism (that we are saved by our own good deeds/acts/prayers) was condemned by the Catholic Church way back in the 5th century.

"Protestants are often confused about the role Catholics believe good works play in salvation, so you should clear this up for the Fundamentalist you know. You should explain to him that we do not perform good works in order to enter a state of justification. The Council of Trent stated that "nothing which precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification" (Decree on Justification 8)." source

On the other hand, while Catholics get accused of believing we can work our way into heaven (something that has never been taught by the Church) there is the other perspective in which some Fundamentalists proclaim that all we must do to get saved is believe in the Lord Jesus. "All we need to do is ask Jesus into our hearts and we are saved". This, also, is not true and a corruption of the faith given to us by the apostles. The Scriptures attest that not all who believe will enter heaven, for do not "even the demons believe, and tremble"? -James 2:19. And "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven"-Matt 7:21

Thus, if it's not through our works, and it's not by faith alone, how do we receive salvation, justification, new birth, and eternal life?

"The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and, by his grace, in obedience to his commands ("For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not from you; it is the gift of God. It is not from works, so no one may boast" [Eph. 2:8-9; see Phil. 2:13, Col. 1:29, Jas. 2:14-26]). That is an uncompromising Truth.(you seem to have trouble understanding this, highlighted by your abuse of the Catechism)

That is, we take ALL of Scripture to understand the plan of salvation established by Jesus Christ.

Thus we are saved

• By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)!
• By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)!
• By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)!
• By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)!
• By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)!
• By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)!
• By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)!
• By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)!
• By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)!
• By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)!
• By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)!
  
  Can we cut any one of these out of the list and proclaim it alone as the means of salvation? Can we be saved without faith? Without God’s grace? Without repentance? Without baptism? Without the Spirit?

The Answer:
These are all involved and necessary; not one of them can be dismissed as a means of obtaining eternal life. Neither can one be emphasized to the exclusion of another. (which is exactly what you do by your abuse of one paragraph cherry picked from the Catechism) They are all involved in salvation and entry into the Church. The Catholic Church does not divide these various elements of salvation up; overemphasizing some while ignoring others; rather, she holds them all in their fullness."

 

[Enow]

Well that certainly sounds like persevering in charity to me...

Peace be with you!

To obtain salvation? Or to live as His disciple and be fruitful and have joy in the Lord?

One can only have power to live as His disciple when they are saved and they can ask the Father in Jesus's name for help to live as His.

 

[Enow]

You are abusing the Catechism. One paragraph does not teach what you are forcing to to say.

You can always refer to the same passage to prove it doesn't really say that, but I don't see how you can.

The focus of the section is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic, which is how the Church defines herself. The section is not a treatise on salvation. Why don't you explain how anyone can be saved who have no love. And you avoid paragraphs 817-820 because it doesn't match up with your agenda.

I read that section but it hardly address what it says in 837. All it does is try to convict Christians for wounding the RCC with divisions, but all that section proves is that no one is to contest any teaching nor doctrines of the RCC to maintain unity.

Catholics can be certain of their salvation, but no where does the Bible give infallible certainty of salvation, that is a man made tradition invented by Luther and Calvin.

Luther did not prune everything Catholic and Calvin had supported the execution of a heretic so I do not represent either one of them. I rely on Jesus Christ to help me serve Him by only representing Him in seeking His glory. That is what it means to be His disciple.

Question: Are Catholics "saved"?

Probably most of us have heard some variation of this before: "Are you saved?" or "I used to be Catholic, but then I got saved."

What's the Catholic response? Firstly, in the strictest sense, we are not saved until we die. Salvation happens when we die. Period. For salvation means that we are united with Christ in heaven.

So I find the question "are you saved?" puzzling and peculiar.

2 Corinthians 6:We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) 3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

What did Jesus say?

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So He that is saved is one that believes in Him. The one that is not saved is the one that does not believe in Him and so they are already condemned because all sinners go to hell anyway. Believing in Him is the antidote for the poison of going to hell.

Now reconciled with God thru Jesus Christ, we are called to live that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ; not thru a church.

That means looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin to be that vessel unto honor in His House.

Those who do not depart from iniquity, run the risk of being damned forever as vessels unto dishonor in His House, BUT still in His House.

But, I also understand the question. What's also being asked by Evangelical Christians is if we know with any certainty that we are going to heaven. And the answer comes from St. Paul:

“I do not judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.”-1 Cor 4:3-4.

There is certainty.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Whether or not, we get resurrected as the firstfruits of the resurrection as vessels unto honor in His House or resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House will depend on what we build on that foundation which was laid by Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 & 2 Timothy 2:18-21

Salvation is a process. We get "saved" when we are born again at baptism (baptism now saves you, says St. Peter in 1 Peter 3:21); we are saved continuously throughout our lives, and we hope to be saved in the end on judgment day.

If the born again of the Spirit is not a process but occurs when a sinner believes in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God raised Him from the dead, then salvation has occurred whereby you & I can tell others that Jesus Christ IS Our Savior BECAUSE He has saved us and we shall "inherit" eternal life.

Thus, we can have a moral assurance of our salvation (that is, Christ offers us the hope of our salvation through his atoning death on the cross), but we do not know with an absolute certainty if we are saved. But if we are saved, it is not through any works that we have done, (and it is not by "being a good person") but by saying Yes to the Divine Marriage Proposal of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (that is, heaven) through our cooperation with God's salvific grace.

Hopefully by now the Lord Jesus Christ has convinced you that you are saved when having the forever indwelling Holy Spirit is proof of that.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[Enow]

Catholics profess that we "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" -Phil 2:12,

In context, Paul was urging the Philippians to be obedient in having that mind of Christ in worship where by honoring the Son in glorifying the Son is how we glorify God the Father as the name of Jesus is above every other name.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Verse 13 ties in with verse 12 about how we work out our salvation with fear and trembling because our confidence is in Him, not resorting to our own power to accomplish this. Read about the promises of God of Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd and not just as our Savior.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:... 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.... 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[Enow]

as St. Paul states. We proclaim that salvation is a process: we were saved (once, 2000 years ago by Christ's atoning death on the cross, and at the moment of our baptism), we are being saved (every day when we turn our hearts, minds and souls towards God) and we hope to be saved (when we die and say yes!).

Scripture reiterates the above:

• I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8),
• but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),
• and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15).

(Note: even though we "work" out our salvation with fear and trembling, as St. Paul professes, this ought not be mistaken for thinking that Catholics must perform "works" in order to get to heaven. This is something we Catholics are often accused of believing. Not true at all. This heresy called Pelagianism (that we are saved by our own good deeds/acts/prayers) was condemned by the Catholic Church way back in the 5th century. ​

Post # 108 explains what Paul really meant about working out our salvation with fear & trembling in Philippians 2:12 when you read that with verse 13. All the following verses in post #108 shows the promises of God for why we should respect that truth and not take the working out of our salvation out of His hands. And working out our salvation means working from the point when we had been saved by continually trusting Jesus Christ to finish His work in us.

Malachi 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

But let us look at your reference;

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

This is about inheriting that perfect body at our resurrection. having the firstfruits of the Spirit, means we are saved as mentioned earlier.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

The hope you are referring to then is to be applied towards the redemption of our body; not per the salvation of our souls. If you & I die, Paul says our spirits are with the Lord. No ifs, ands, nor buts, about it, but we will be judged by what we have done, good or bad, but Home with the Lord.
​

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences..​

Then your other reference;

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
​

2 Corinthians 5:9-11 shows the consequence for not walking in good works that God ordained that we should walk in of Ephesians 2:10 even though we are saved. To what which redemption of our body be it the vessel unto honor or the vessel unto dishonor will be judged by whethor or not we look to Him for help in discerning and departing from iniquity.​

​

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.​

​

More to come in addressing your other references, God be willing.​

​

 

[Enow]

as St. Paul states. We proclaim that salvation is a process: we were saved (once, 2000 years ago by Christ's atoning death on the cross, and at the moment of our baptism), we are being saved (every day when we turn our hearts, minds and souls towards God) and we hope to be saved (when we die and say yes!).

Scripture reiterates the above:

• I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8),
• but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),
• and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15).

(Note: even though we "work" out our salvation with fear and trembling, as St. Paul professes, this ought not be mistaken for thinking that Catholics must perform "works" in order to get to heaven. This is something we Catholics are often accused of believing. Not true at all. This heresy called Pelagianism (that we are saved by our own good deeds/acts/prayers) was condemned by the Catholic Church way back in the 5th century. ​

Addressing your second points about "but I'm also being saved". I think you are referring to 1 Corinthians 1:18 rather than 1:8.

1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That is a verse I can use to prove you are saved regardless, but unto 1:18 which I think you meant to referenced due to a typo.

Depending on which Bible version you ae using, the KJV is referenced below as citing you are saved rather than what some modern Bibles say that you are being saved. To remove all doubt as to the effect of believing the preaching of the cross can be found in verse 21.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.... 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. KJV

Again, which Bible is correct is by discerning the truth in His words. Unless you are saved, we could be no sweet savour of Christ unto God.

2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: KJV

Philippians 2:12 is explained in post # 108

More to come for those other references. God be willing. ( Trying to keep these replies as short and not a novel of a reply. )​

 

[Enow]

as St. Paul states. We proclaim that salvation is a process: we were saved (once, 2000 years ago by Christ's atoning death on the cross, and at the moment of our baptism), we are being saved (every day when we turn our hearts, minds and souls towards God) and we hope to be saved (when we die and say yes!).

Scripture reiterates the above:

• I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8),
• but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),
• and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15).

(Note: even though we "work" out our salvation with fear and trembling, as St. Paul professes, this ought not be mistaken for thinking that Catholics must perform "works" in order to get to heaven. This is something we Catholics are often accused of believing. Not true at all. This heresy called Pelagianism (that we are saved by our own good deeds/acts/prayers) was condemned by the Catholic Church way back in the 5th century. ​

I believe if we were to read Romans 5:9-10 in context, we may get a better understanding of what verses 9 & 10 is about. When we start at the beginning of the chapter, we read about how we are saved.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

By having the Holy Ghost in us is why our hope does not make us ashamed.

Now Paul starts a topic of what it was like before we got saved in referring to the conditions for by how we got saved by Him.

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now that we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him and thus we are not going to hell.

Unto the next reference;

That foundation which was laid by Jesus Christ cannot be removed. That means a believer's salvation. It is what we have built on that foundation that shall be judged. If any saint fails to look to Him for help to discern & depart from iniquity in getting ready to meet the Bridegroom, then He will burn away that wood and stubble, and hay that defiles the temple of God thus destroying the physical body, but the spirit is still saved.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

An example of how God will be judging a church in that way by leaving them behind to face the coming great tribulation where they will incur a physical death can be found here.

Revelations 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

Then they will be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity.

So either we look to Him to help us prove all things and to abstain from all appearances of evil to depart from iniquity to be that vessel unto honor in His House to be received by the Bridegroom, OR He will remove those iniquity and resurrect the saints after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor to be in His House to be received by Him as the King of kings on earth.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

Don't look to te RCC to do that for you. Look to Jesus Christ and trust Him as your Good Shepherd & Friend to do that for you.​

 

[Illuminator]

Don't look to te RCC to do that for you. Look to Jesus Christ and trust Him as your Good Shepherd & Friend to do that for you.​

"The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and, by his grace, in obedience to his commands.
See post #105, and you are purposely ignoring paragraphs 817- 820 found on the same page. You are not excluded, but you exclude yourself in a feeble attempt to discredit the Church's teaching on salvation, and you are too hostile to see that most of what you say is agreeable.

 

[Philip James]

To obtain salvation?

Hellow Enow,

Could you please clarify what you mean by 'obtain salvation'?

Consider St John's words:

If anyone says, "I love God," but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

This is the commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

Or perhaps Jesus' words:

Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'

He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'

And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

And of course:

Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I command?


In light of these things, I am truly puzzled why you object to saying 'we must perservere in love to be saved'

Peace be with you!

 

[Enow]

Hellow Enow,

Could you please clarify what you mean by 'obtain salvation'?

When you don't quote me like that, not sure if I am following you from my reference other than to guess to 2 Timothy 2:10 about obtaining the eternal glory that comes with our salvation which is to be that vessel unto honor in His House. 2 Timothy 2:19-21

Consider St John's words:

If anyone says, "I love God," but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

This is the commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

What do you do with a Catholic who hates his brother? Do you preach the gospel to him or do you correct him in Christ's love by those verses in your quote. What happens when he says he cannot do it, no matter how hard he tries, he hates that brother for what he has done? Then I would tell him to go to Jesus Christ in prayer for help to forgive that brother for he knows not what he do.

Or perhaps Jesus' words:

Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'

He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'

And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

If you read Matthew 25th chapter carefully, it goes to the white throne judgement when He judges the rest of the dead.

And of course:

Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I command?

Are you referring to this reference?

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: 48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. 49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

I believe in cross referencing with Matthew 7:13-27 & Luke 13:24-30, it is referring to those movements of the "spirit" that they assume is the Holy Spirit coming into the worship place causing many to fall and bringing signs and lying wonders, while they forget that He dwells in us. Such movements like the Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto's Blessings, and holy laughter movement where confusion and loss of self control reigns is what Jesus is talking about for broadening the way in the worship place.

So what is He saying that they are not doing? The only way to come to God the Father in worship is by the ONLY way of the Son, not the Holy Spirit & not by Trinity as of that is His name.

John 14: 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The only way to honor the Father in worship is by only honoring the Son because Jesus said when they do not honor the Son, they are not honoring the Father and that is a judgment over every believer, Catholic and Protestant alike.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

That is what the mind of Christ we are to have in worship where the name of Jesus Christ is above every other name to the glory of God the Father and that is the obedience that Paul was stressing for them in worship in his absence in 2 Timothy 2:5-13.

So you see all those believers falling down in a loss of self control? That is what they get for putting the spotlight on the Holy Spirit when the indwelling Holy Spirit and Jesus saying for them to keep the spotlight on the Son in worship to honor Him in order to honor the Father.

He is the only way to come to God the Father by in worship, prayer, and fellowship.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

So are Catholics doing what He says when calling Him Lord or not?

I am not saying Catholics are not saved, because they are saved, but they need to repent just as much as Protestants do in how they approach God the father in worship in how to honor the Father because there is only one way and that is His saying and yet no one seems to be taking Him seriously as Lord.

In light of these things, I am truly puzzled why you object to saying 'we must perservere in love to be saved'

Peace be with you!

Well, if a Catholic was not saved, then he would not be able to believe Jesus Christ would help Him to love his brother to forgive him, but because he is saved, he can believe Jesus would give him the love he needs to forgive and love his brother even if it is from a distance. If he wonders if he doubts he has forgiven him, he can always ask Jesus to forgive him and He will if that will help him to forgive him too.

So I object to that statement because a Catholic is saved and all he needs is correction and exhortation to love his brother and to go to Jesus Christ for help is he finds he is unable to for whatever the reason. Indeed, we are called to love our enemies but again, we look to Jesus for help with that. Sure, we may get angry and boiling mad, and want vengeance... but He is in us and with us always to help us to love them enough to forgive and move on, free of that anger boiling in them to enjoy that peace with God and the day before him.

 

[RogerDC]

I would not go this far. I would say the "Church" must be consistent in doctrines that are critical to people believing. There are other issues that people can differ about which the Orthodox Church calls "controversial issues."

I agree. Regarding theology and the interpretation of Scripture, St. Augustine used to say, “unity in necessary things; liberty in doubtful things”.

What about the churches of Antioch and Alexandria or the one established by Thomas in India?

All the Churches referred to in Acts were under the control of the apostles, and therefore were all part of the Catholic Church. If James established a Church in India, it would have been Catholic too.

 

[Philip James]

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

So are Catholics doing what He says when calling Him Lord or not?

I should say so, yes. Those that are living the Faith as they aught...

As for how we worpship as a communuty, at the height of the Mass, we lift up that one sacrifice of Christ crucified, uniting to it our offering of praise and thanksgiving, our joys and our sufferings, yes our very selves,

Through our Lord Jesus Christ,
With our Lord Jesus Christ
And in our Lord Jesus Christ..

As the doxology at the end of every Eucharistic prayer says:

Through Him,
With Him and in Him,
In the unity of the Holy Spirit,

All Glory and Honour are Yours,
Almighty Father!

Forever and ever!
Amen! Amen! Amen!

 

[Enow]

I should say so, yes. Those that are living the Faith as they aught...

Are you living the faith as Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John has taught or as what the RCC has taught? Because if that faith is how the RCC has taught by whom you refer to as the source, then you have to ask yourself why you did not refer to Jesus and His disciples first for what that faith is about?

If the RCC taught as Jesus and His disciples taught, then there would be no referring to the RCC, but you have to in regards to everything about that particular "faith" because Jesus and His disciples pay no homage to what the RCC has taught to pay homage to nor worship in the way as the RCC does. You have to be taught that way from the RCC.

 

[Philip James]

Are you living the faith as Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John has taught or as what the RCC has taught?

You are assuming that what the Catholic church teaches is differnent than what the apostles taught, when she can do nothing but hand on that which she received from Christ through the apostles...
As for myself, i am a lazy schlub, who squandered my inheritance, and am not worthy to be but the least of my brothers.. Having come to my senses (thanks be to God), i now serve my elder brothers and sisters and hope in the mercy of the One who will judge us all.. Perhaps He will let me be a servant in His household... In any event, who can argue with His judgements?

Because if that faith is how the RCC has taught by whom you refer to as the source, then you have to ask yourself why you did not refer to Jesus and His disciples first for what that faith is about?

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. I have many times stated that the 'deposit of faith' given to the Church by Jesus, through the apostles, is what we must hold to... To assume that I know better than what the Church has handed down for 2000 years would be pure hubris.. For 'we have the mind of Christ'.

If the RCC taught as Jesus and His disciples taught, then there would be no referring to the RCC, but you have to in regards to everything about that particular "faith" because Jesus and His disciples pay no homage to what the RCC has taught to pay homage to nor worship in the way as the RCC does. You have to be taught that way from the RCC.

Again, I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, but it is not just the Church in Rome that attests the Eucharist is the pure sacrifice foretold on Malachi 1:11, but all the ancient apostolic churches..
Perhaps you should give them a hearing?

'he who hears you, hears me...'

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

 

[Enow]

You are assuming that what the Catholic church teaches is different than what the apostles taught, when she can do nothing but hand on that which she received from Christ through the apostles...

When the commandments Jesus is talking about in John 14:15 comes with the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost John 14:16-17, then believing is all that is needed ( John 14:1-17 ). Proof is in the Book of Acts when the Gentiles had just heard Peter preached the gospel that by believing in Him, they shall receive the remission of sins, they had received the Holy Ghost before they had gotten water baptized, even before they had come forward and confessed Him with their mouths, but by believing in Him as Peter said.

Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Now I do not see Peter or any one preaching the gospel of the Romans Catholic Church and the commandments within her for salvation then or in Revelations.

As for myself, i am a lazy schlub, who squandered my inheritance, and am not worthy to be but the least of my brothers.. Having come to my senses (thanks be to God), i now serve my elder brothers and sisters and hope in the mercy of the One who will judge us all.. Perhaps He will let me be a servant in His household... In any event, who can argue with His judgements?

When you heed the call to depart from iniquity ( 2 Timothy 2:19-21 ) of what you had unwittingly placed on that foundation laid by Jesus Christ ( 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 ), by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help you lay aside every weight & sin ( Hebrews 12:1-2 ) whereby asking for forgiveness from Him, He is faithful and just to forgive you of your sins and cleanse you from all unrighteousness ( 1 John 1:9 ), He has made you a vessel unto honor again to be received as such by the Bridegroom when He comes.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

I do not see the RCC mentioned here either for that to happen so just go to Jesus Christ for living that reconciled relationship with God..

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. I have many times stated that the 'deposit of faith' given to the Church by Jesus, through the apostles, is what we must hold to... To assume that I know better than what the Church has handed down for 2000 years would be pure hubris.. For 'we have the mind of Christ'.

Again, I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, but it is not just the Church in Rome that attests the Eucharist is the pure sacrifice foretold on Malachi 1:11, but all the ancient apostolic churches..
Perhaps you should give them a hearing?

'he who hears you, hears me...'

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

The deposit of faith does something. Look at what happens; you are born again of the Spirit and thus saved. How much? Read here.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

What we do with our salvation is key for discipleship whether or not we look to the author & finisher of our faith to help us live this reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ since He will finish His work in us ( Philippians 1:6,11 ) ; not thru any church for that.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:.... 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.