The Pillar and Ground of the Truth

[Giuliano]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

That is Jesus answering Nicodemus on how one is born again of the Spirit which was to take place after His ascension for all those who believe in Him.

I understand your point of view because of the works of Catholicism has tainted your reading of the scripture, but you can always pray to the Lord Jesus Christ for help just to make sure you are reading it with His eyes. When you have the Holy Spirit in you, brother, that means you are saved.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.... 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Since Jesus Christ is the Good news to man; I have to declare that the works of Catholicism is not Good News at all, but a thief of His glory as Savior. Indeed, all a Catholic can really say that Jesus might be the Good News because it is on them to get saved and keep themselves saved.

Not sure how Catholicism does not look like other religions in the world where the emphasis and hope is on them to make themselves good and to do good. That is why the gospel of Jesus Christ is Good News and why I can say that He is Good News and He is my Savior because I am saved.

You are still avoiding answering the question; but the passages you did produce do put "saved" in the past tense since the word "should" is used. Now you want to start talking about "being born of the Spirit." On that score also, I doubt you can make a real claim.

Can you move like the wind? If not, then I do not believe you have been born of the Spirit. Perhaps you have been born of water, but not of the Spirit.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Ezekiel is called "son of man" and he could move like the wind.

It seems doubtful to me that anyone who has not yet had spirit, soul and body divided by the Living Word still stands in some confusion about what flesh is and what spirit is. He has not yet been born of the Spirit then.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

For the record, I am not a Catholic.

 

[Giuliano]

Jesus was talking about escaping the wrath to come thus being saved from that by enduring to the end to escape before that calamity comes.

So how can you say Jesus is your Savior if you are not saved yet? How can anyone say He is the Good News when they are not saved yet?

You don't see anything wrong with that picture?

To escape from what is coming on the earth is about discipleship; running that race to be received as that vessel unto honor in His House; you have to be saved to be in that race to run.

The problem here is that although Catholic believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead, they don't believe they are saved yet as a result, even though they are saved but at risk of being left behind for denying Him as their Savior that they are saved simply for believing in Him.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

You guys are not in the process of being born again of the Spirit; YOU ARE born again of the Spirit when you believed in Him.

It is because you are born again of the Spirit, you can run that race by looking to the author and finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin to be received by the Bridegroom as vessels unto honor In His House to escape as in saved from the calamity that is coming on the earth.

Notice that John does not say God makes people "sons of God" but rather "gave" them "power to become the sons of God." You misconstrue this and say people are automatically born again without using the power gave them.

 

[Giuliano]

It seems that unless Paul says it...it isn't true. So people should call themselves Paulians not Christians.

It amazes me when men scour the books of Paul and interpret them in ways that contradict other parts of the Bible.

 

[Philip James]

Roman Catholicism is an insult

through glory and dishonor, insult and praise. We are treated as deceivers and yet are truthful;

as unrecognized and yet acknowledged; as dying and behold we live; as chastised and yet not put to death;

as sorrowful yet always rejoicing; as poor yet enriching many; as having nothing and yet possessing all things

 

[Enow]

You are still avoiding answering the question;

I am saved simply for believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead.

but the passages you did produce do put "saved" in the past tense since the word "should" is used. Now you want to start talking about "being born of the Spirit." On that score also, I doubt you can make a real claim.

Can you move like the wind? If not, then I do not believe you have been born of the Spirit. Perhaps you have been born of water, but not of the Spirit.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Ezekiel is called "son of man" and he could move like the wind.

It seems doubtful to me that anyone who has not yet had spirit, soul and body divided by the Living Word still stands in some confusion about what flesh is and what spirit is. He has not yet been born of the Spirit then.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

You are kind of missing the forest for the trees. How can anyone say Jesus is their Savior and that He is the Good News to man unless we are saved?

Jesus told Nicodemus how a person can be born again by believing in Him and He also said when this born again of the Spirit event will take place which will be after His ascension which will be after His crucifixion, thus inferring in-between also His resurrection.

Sending out the condition for salvation which is by believing in Him, "shall" bring about the desired result; as in saved.

For the record, I am not a Catholic.

It is not unprecedented that you sound Catholic when reformers have not pruned everything Catholic from their words & practices, and thus neither have many individual believers in their walk with Him, but thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Giuliano]

I am saved simply for believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead.

I ask you for scriptures, you give me your opinions. I give up trying to figure out what your views are based on.

 

[Enow]

Notice that John does not say God makes people "sons of God" but rather "gave" them "power to become the sons of God." You misconstrue this and say people are automatically born again without using the power gave them.

You cannot use the power as a son of God unless you are born again of the Spirit, and thus saved.

Do you have the Holy Spirit in you? If yes, then you are saved, even if you do not believe that.

However, because you do not believe that, you are denying Him as saved and thus denying Him as your Savior and thus at risk of being denied by Him and thus left behind as He did warn believers that will happen when He comes as the Bridegroom for the abiding bride of Christ.

If you believe that after you die, you will be with the Lord by your spirit, and not in hell, then how can you believe that unless you are saved?

We are all saved from the second death by believing in Jesus Christ. However, running that race for the high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honor in His House is not for salvation, but for the eternal glory that comes with our salvation so we can escape the calamity coming on the earth.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

See how those cut off with the unbelievers, those left behind saints are still called His servants as they shall receive stripes per the measure for the knowledge they had for not being ready? The unbelievers were never grafted to Him to be cut off. Now they will be denied by Him as disqualified and thus reprobate, His servants shall be resurrected after the great tribulation to serve the King of kings for that 1000 tear reign on earth.

So I hope by now you will repent before the Bridegroom comes. Otherwise, ……. not sure how you can tell anyone that Jesus Christ IS your Savior if you really believe you had not been really saved yet. Would that not make you a false witness?

 

[Illuminator]

The problem here is that although Catholic believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead, they don't believe they are saved yet as a result, even though they are saved but at risk of being left behind for denying Him as their Savior that they are saved simply for believing in Him.

This makes no sense. You need to stop pretending you understand the Catholic view of salvation because you make things up as you go along.
Salvation, Justification, & "Faith Alone" (Index Page)

 

[Giuliano]

You cannot use the power as a son of God unless you are born again of the Spirit, and thus saved.

You are making no sense at all. If God gives you the power to a son of God, you say that means you're already a son of God or you couldn't use the power.

 

[Giuliano]

This makes no sense. You need to stop pretending you understand the Catholic view of salvation because you make things up as you go along.
Salvation, Justification, & "Faith Alone" (Index Page)

Sad to say, he doesn't appear to understand what he himself believes.

 

[Enow]

I ask you for scriptures, you give me your opinions. I give up trying to figure out what your views are based on.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

You guys are making a big deal about "shall be saved" as if that means not yet saved, but the condition for salvation is when you believe in Him.

As in, if you take the antidote for the poison in your system, you shall be saved. If you do not take the antidote, you will not be saved.

Jesus said the same thing here:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Need a flip with the same meaning?

He that believeth on him is saved: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Since sinners are on their way to hell, they were already condemned, and now still so since they believed NOT in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[Enow]

This makes no sense. You need to stop pretending you understand the Catholic view of salvation because you make things up as you go along.
Salvation, Justification, & "Faith Alone" (Index Page)

It is best to quote from an article as an example to make your point rather than giving me a table of content with links to various articles on the subject.

But I will give you a quote from the Catholic catechism of this vanity you are all in for doing the works of Catholicism.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

"837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321 "

So that is how I read about being a member of the Catholic Church, and doing the sacraments, and yet if you do not persevere in charity, you are not saved even if you are a member of the Church. So how does that not make God look like an Indian Giver?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are to do good works but it is not for salvation, but for being His disciples to bear fruit that our joy may be full.

 

[Enow]

You are making no sense at all. If God gives you the power to a son of God, you say that means you're already a son of God or you couldn't use the power.

By believing in Him even in His name, you have power to be, as in live, as the sons of God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

am saved simply for believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead.

I'm pretty sure Satan believes Jesus is and was and that God raised Him from the dead...

 

[Enow]

I'm pretty sure Satan believes Jesus is and was and that God raised Him from the dead...

Since salvation is for among the living on the earth that are at risk of dying in being separated by God forever by the second death, that hardly applies to Satan and his angels that were already judged and reserved to go to the lake of fire in the end.

2 Corinthians 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

John 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[marks]

What do you think then about adopting the ideas of a wife-abuser or drunk as valid? I think we should be more skeptical about the teachings we get from wife-abusers or drunks than from people of good reputation and who have not created scandals. Surely a drunk would have some right ideas; I assume he would have some right ones -- but odds are he has some wrong ones too -- so we should be more cautious when considering his views.

We read that the truth will set people free. If someone is still enslaved by sin, he may be a Christian but one who is still growing -- he is not a mature Christian who has enough truth that it's set him free yet. If we listen to his words, he may be mixing in false ideas with the true.

This reminds me of the verse in James, something like, he who has wisdom, let it be seen in their manner of living. Except that in this case the manner of living would be showing a lack of wisdom, would you say?

Much love!

 

[Giuliano]

By believing in Him even in His name, you have power to be, as in live, as the sons of God.

John wrote "power to become the sons of God." Why change that to "power to be, as in live, as the sons of God"? I'm getting a little tired of how you ignore the actual words in the Bible.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 

[Giuliano]

This reminds me of the verse in James, something like, he who has wisdom, let it be seen in their manner of living. Except that in this case the manner of living would be showing a lack of wisdom, would you say?

Much love!

Yes, that sounds right to me. Not someone to be trusted with a position of trust in the church unless he acquires wisdom that shows.

 

[Illuminator]

It is best to quote from an article as an example to make your point rather than giving me a table of content with links to various articles on the subject.

But I will give you a quote from the Catholic catechism of this vanity you are all in for doing the works of Catholicism.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

"837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321 "

So that is how I read about being a member of the Catholic Church, and doing the sacraments, and yet if you do not persevere in charity, you are not saved even if you are a member of the Church. So how does that not make God look like an Indian Giver?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are to do good works but it is not for salvation, but for being His disciples to bear fruit that our joy may be full.

Cherry picking one paragraph from the Catechism without providing a link to the full context IS DISHONEST.
CCC - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3
Doing good works for salvation is an insulting lie. The historic Church deemed it a heresy 1000 years before the first Protestant was born.
As usual, McCarthy (along with many other Calvinist anti-Catholics) is unwilling or unable to understand the relationship of human free will to God’s grace. We believe we can cooperate with God’s grace in order to “merit.” Yet that very merit is itself completely an act of God’s grace. Here is some more relevant information to consider:
Catholic Merit vs. Distorted Caricatures (James McCarthy)

 

[Enow]

I'm getting a little tired of how you ignore the actual words in the Bible.

Patience, brother.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

You should always be open to correction by the scripture if you want others to follow suit. As it is, we should discuss the scripture.

John wrote "power to become the sons of God." Why change that to "power to be, as in live, as the sons of God"?

BUT it starts off in the past tense of having received Him and that power was given in the past tense. So they have received Him and they have power, but whether or not they continually live as sons of God afterwards by faith in Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd in being His disciples is the question.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

We have been reconciled with God by faith in Jesus Christ and we are asked to continue in His love by abiding in Him as His disciples to be fruitful so that our joy may be full. The consequence for not abiding in Him is to be cut off as in left behind at the great tribulation rapture event where they will be resurrected after the great tribulation damned forever as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity. Luke 12:40-49 & 2 Timothy 2:18-21​