The Popular False Justification and False Sanctification View Today.

[Bible Highlighter]

Good advice. I also find robust debate informative. For example, many of the threads here are excellent sources of knowledge.

I agree. Debate has helped me to dig into God’s Word in what it is really saying in detail more.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We were addressing the point about the obedient person already being righteous as opposed to becoming righteous by being obedient.

Concentrate on the words in Galatians 6:9. It says let us not be weary in well doing, for we will reap IF we faint not. Reap what? Skip back to the previous verse (verse 8). Galatians 6:8 talks about how one is sowing to the Spirit to reap life everlasting. Yet, you don’t believe those words.

Protestants believe that a born again believer will always endure to the end and they will not faint in sowing to the Spirit to reap life everlasting. But that’s not what Galatians 6:8-9 says. Paul writes to us the believers and says that let us not be weary in well doing, for we will reap if we faint not. WE. This includes Paul. Paul is including himself in this conversation.

 

[Charlie24]

No. The Bible does not teach such a thing. No verse or passage teaches such a thing. This an entirely made up Protestant belief that justifies darkness and evil. Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived (1 Corinthians 6:9). Titus 2:11-12 says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Jude 1:4 talks about those who turn God’s grace into a license for immorality.



When you read a passage like Romans 4:2-5, you also have to read the other passage in Romans 6 (in the following two chapters) that says,

“What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.” (Romans 6:15-18).

Note: Paul is saying he is not under the Law of Moses. He says shall we sin because we are under grace? Paul says, God forbid. Then Paul says do you not know that to whom you all yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you-all are to whom you obey. Paul then says we became servants of righteousness being made free from sin.

Paul says a similar thing in Romans 6:1-2. He says, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”

Paul is saying shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? According to you: This would be a “yes” because you said you will remain a sinner saved by God’s grace. But Paul says God forbid. Paul asks the question how can we who are dead to sin live any longer in it? Meaning, Paul does not want you to declare you will remain a sinner saved by God’s grace.

So when Paul says in Romans 4:3-4, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt” he is referring to how Abraham’s prior belief in God made him righteous before he was circumcised (did a work - Romans 4:9-12). The idea here is that it is pointing to how a person first needs to be saved initially by God’s grace through a belief in the Savior Jesus Christ without works to begin with. Paul said this because of the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism that was invading the church (Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 2:3, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12). For if you believed that you had to first be circumcised to be initially saved (instead of being saved initially by God’s grace through faith), you would be making a work or the Law the entrance gate and foundation of your salvation. So in this case you would be working to satisfy a debt vs. working as a part of receiving grace. Paul says you can deny God by being reprobate unto every good work in Titus 1:16. Paul says if you don’t provide for your own (a holy action), you are worse than an infidel (unbeliever), and you have denied the faith (1 Timothy 5:8). So you can draw back and deny the faith by not performing the correct holy action in your life as a believer. Of course, we can confess and forsake our sins. There is grace, but it is conditional and it’s not unconditional. If grace was unconditional, then are New Testament would be pretty small and it would have no instructions for us to live for God but only to believe in Jesus as we remain as sinners.



You believe in Sinless Perfection for salvation. I don’t. You believe that every sin condemns and that a person would have to live sinless perfect in every way in order to be saved. Seeing you reason that such a thing is not possible to live sinlessly perfect, then you agree with the false Protestant belief that justifies sin on some level.

I don’t believe all sin leads to death (1 John 5:16) or leads to hellfire (Matthew 5:22 AMP).



They can, but it is not in the way that you think it is because 1 John 1:8 is not a banner flag to justify you doing future sin on some level or to remain as a sinner saved by God’s grace (Which is turning God’s grace into a license for immorality - Jude 1:4).



Paying of lip service that your sorry does not really mean anything unless you truly change or you make an active effort to change your ways. If you believe you will just sin again the same kind of sin because you cannot help it because you are a sinner, then that does not mean you truly are sorry. It would be like a person who keeps beating you saying they are sorry while they do it. Are they really sorry? No.



Which is exactly what your belief says because you said you will remain a sinner saved by God’s grace.

Obviously you love to argue, while not paying attention to anything being said.

Everything I've said has been taken in the opposite direction. It's a waste of time.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Because you are distorting 1 John 1:7 to say something that it does not specifically say and it goes against the wording that it uses.

Again, 1 John 1:7 uses the words “if” and “we” in relation to walking in the light whereby the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
If 1 John 1:7 was worded as you say, it would not include the words if or we.

No, I'm not dismissing the conditional statement. The person who is walking in the light is the person who is continuing to believe. You must continue to believe in order to continue to be cleansed by Christ's blood. Righteous obedience is the evidence of that continued believing. It is the person who continues to believe, as evidenced by their obedience to God's command to love, that continues to have the benefit of Christ's blood in the forgiveness of sin.

If it as you say, that the actual obedient deed itself solicits the forgiveness of God then you are engaging in the very works gospel that Paul condemns. Romans 3 and 4 is not about which works make you righteous and which ones do not. It's about the difference between doing something to be made righteous vs. believing something to be made righteous. You say that you remain in the justification you received by faith (without the aid of works) by working. You did not receive God's righteousness by working and you don't keep it by working. You receive it and keep it by believing. Your works are the evidence that you are continuing to believe and so remain in the cleansing power of Christ's blood that you received by faith without works.

 

[mailmandan]

With the exception of "there is no sowing or reaping you need to worry about", Protestants say this because John makes it quite clear that born again people can not live in sin. They can't because they have God's seed within them:

"9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1 John 3:9
​

The person who remains in their old lifestyle of sin is not born again. They're not a saved person living in sin. John says that can't happen. You would have to become un-saved, un-born again to live in the sin God delivered you from.

In regards to Galatians 6:7-8, the one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unregenerated by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. So those who live only to satisfy their own sinful nature (descriptive of those who are devoid of the Spirit) will harvest decay and death from that sinful nature. But those who live to please the Spirit (descriptive of those who are born again) will harvest everlasting life from the Spirit.

1 John 3:9 (AMP) - No one who is born of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, because God’s seed [His principle of life, the essence of His righteous character] remains [permanently] in him [who is born again—who is reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose]; and he [who is born again] cannot habitually [live a life characterized by] sin, because he is born of God and longs to please Him.

 

[mailmandan]

Obviously you love to argue, while not paying attention to anything being said.

Everything I've said has been taken in the opposite direction. It's a waste of time.

BH seems to be more interested in treating Protestants with contempt and winning his arguments at all costs than he is in seriously considering what others have to say and with the truth. It's a waste of time indeed, just like beating a dead horse.

In regards to 1 Corinthians 6:9, notice that Paul says the unrighteous (not the righteous) shall not inherit the kingdom of God in (1 Corinthians 6:9). Verse 10 goes on to describe the sinful lifestyle of the unrighteous who are not born of God. In verse 11, we read - *And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. *This is descriptive of the righteous. In Galatians 5:19-21, we see a similar list of sins practiced by the unrighteous and the apostle Paul goes on to say that those who practice such things (sins) will not inherit the kingdom of God. In 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin..

In Titus 2:11-12, the grace of God that brings salvation has "appeared to all men" (yet that does not mean that all men will accept God's gift of eternal life through faith). God's grace (enabling power) is unmerited and brings salvation through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and in Titus 2:11-12, the "grace of God" also teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age. This is what we are saved FOR and NOT BY. Believers are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, FOR/UNTO good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

The book of Jude has nothing to do with believers justifying doing future sin (which is a straw man argument) and neither does 1 John 1:8 - If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], (present tense) we delude ourselves and the truth is not in us. Now Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. (vs. 19)

*In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ. (vs. 1) Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

 

[Robert Gwin]

oh boy,

You need to study my friend.. Everyone does not go to hades. Not sure where you got your info from. but its wrong

Once again. Jesus told the thief on the cross. Today you will be in paradise with me

Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord (for believers)

May I ask you sir, where do the dead go?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Concentrate on the words in Galatians 6:9. It says let us not be weary in well doing, for we will reap IF we faint not. Reap what? Skip back to the previous verse (verse 8). Galatians 6:8 talks about how one is sowing to the Spirit to reap life everlasting. Yet, you don’t believe those words.

Protestants believe that a born again believer will always endure to the end and they will not faint in sowing to the Spirit to reap life everlasting. But that’s not what Galatians 6:8-9 says. Paul writes to us the believers and says that let us not be weary in well doing, for we will reap if we faint not. WE. This includes Paul. Paul is including himself in this conversation.

"8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Galatians 6:8​

This is nothing more than a statement of the necessity to continue in faith. The obedience of sowing to please the Spirit is not what secures, nor keeps, the righteousness that comes from God. The faith that motivates that obedience is what does that. And so we are exhorted to continue in that faith. Paul says works are the expression of the faith that avails anything towards receiving God's righteousness:

"6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." Galatians 5:6

​

The expression of faith is not what solicits that righteousness. Faith itself does that.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Faith is the ONLY thing that makes a person a born again child of God. The ONLY thing. And, of course, this means genuine faith, not the fake faith of fake believers.

I think we have covered this well Ferris, virtually everyone has faith, all Christians have faith, but only 144k out of all the Christians who ever lived gets called sir.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I think we have covered this well Ferris, virtually everyone has faith, all Christians have faith, but only 144k out of all the Christians who ever lived gets called sir.

"Many are called..." Matthew 22:14​

Does this have anything to do with what you're talking about?

 

[Robert Gwin]

That's exactly what I'm saying, I have only one commandment for salvation, to believe.

I surrendered my life to Christ, not a set of rules.

I can't keep all those rules perfectly as demanded, and neither can you!

I do what I know is right according to the Word of God and depend on the Holy Spirit to guide me through this life.

If you live by rules and regulations, depending on yourself in keeping them all, you are lying to yourself. You will be condemned when you fail. There will be no Grace, you have chosen to live by law.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news to you Charlie, but here is what God says sir: (James 2:19) . . .You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.
The demons believe more than you do as they have seen Jehovah, no doubt at all in their minds, and you know their eventuality sir.
Make no mistake: (Hebrews 11:6) . . .without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him. We have to work to get in sir, no doubt you believe these words from Jesus: Lu 13:24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
What does Strive mean:
ajgwnivzomai Agonizomai (ag-o-nid'-zom-ahee);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb, Strong #: 75
to enter a contest: contend in the gymnastic games

1. to contend with adversaries, fight
2. metaph. to contend, struggle, with difficulties and dangers
3. to endeavour with strenuous zeal, strive: to obtain something

 

[Ferris Bueller]

May I ask you sir, where do the dead go?

Why does this matter?
I find it to be a meaningless contentious argument. What matters is that you are standing on the right at the judgment, not the left.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news to you Charlie, but here is what God says sir: (James 2:19) . . .You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.
The demons believe more than you do as they have seen Jehovah, no doubt at all in their minds, and you know their eventuality sir.
Make no mistake: (Hebrews 11:6) . . .without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him. We have to work to get in sir, no doubt you believe these words from Jesus: Lu 13:24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
What does Strive mean:
ajgwnivzomai Agonizomai (ag-o-nid'-zom-ahee);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb, Strong #: 75
to enter a contest: contend in the gymnastic games

1. to contend with adversaries, fight
2. metaph. to contend, struggle, with difficulties and dangers
3. to endeavour with strenuous zeal, strive: to obtain something

Demons do not believe and trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. That faith - the faith that saves - is evidenced by obedience. Obedience doesn't make faith salvific. Works show it to be salvific.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Obviously you love to argue,

Acts of the Apostles 18:28 NIV
“For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.”

while not paying attention to anything being said.

I perfectly know what you believe, but I find it to be immoral.

Everything I've said has been taken in the opposite direction.

I don’t believe that is the case. You said you will remain a sinner saved by God’s grace.

It's a waste of time.

Discussing God’s Word is never a waste of time.

 

[Jim B]

Obviously you love to argue, while not paying attention to anything being said.

Everything I've said has been taken in the opposite direction. It's a waste of time.

I totally agree that everything that you have said is a waste of time!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, I'm not dismissing the conditional statement. The person who is walking in the light is the person who is continuing to believe. You must continue to believe in order to continue to be cleansed by Christ's blood. Righteous obedience is the evidence of that continued believing. It is the person who continues to believe, as evidenced by their obedience to God's command to love, that continues to have the benefit of Christ's blood in the forgiveness of sin.

If it as you say, that the actual obedient deed itself solicits the forgiveness of God then you are engaging in the very works gospel that Paul condemns. Romans 3 and 4 is not about which works make you righteous and which ones do not. It's about the difference between doing something to be made righteous vs. believing something to be made righteous. You say that you remain in the justification you received by faith (without the aid of works) by working. You did not receive God's righteousness by working and you don't keep it by working. You receive it and keep it by believing. Your works are the evidence that you are continuing to believe and so remain in the cleansing power of Christ's blood that you received by faith without works.

What’s silly is that you are denying that walking in the light (loving your brother) is a part of 1 John 1:7. You say it is all faith. While there is an element of faith in obeying God’s Word, it’s not entirely faith alone that gets you to act out on faith. You simply have to just have to decide that you will act out in faith or not. Just believing in faith alone really hard is not going to do anything if you don’t decide to act out in faith. Noah could have believed God’s instructions really hard for hours but if he did not decide to get off his butt and build the Ark, he would have perished along with everyone else.

As for Romans 3 and Romans 4: Paul is referring to being saved by God’s grace without works in our Initial Salvation (Which is the 1st aspect of salvation). He is not referring to the secondary aspect of salvation in the Sanctification of the Spirit like he did in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and in Romans 8:13. Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:2-5, Titus 3:5 are referring to Initial Salvation. This is evident if you were to read the context. The same error is true for Works Salvationists who deny the 1st aspect of salvation in being saved by God’s grace without works by saying that James was making a universal statement of truth on salvation for James 2:24. However, James was referring to Continued Faith (or the Secondary Aspect of Salvation), and not our Initial Salvation. This again is evident by the context in James.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Galatians 6:8​

This is nothing more than a statement of the necessity to continue in faith. The obedience of sowing to please the Spirit is not what secures, nor keeps, the righteousness that comes from God. The faith that motivates that obedience is what does that. And so we are exhorted to continue in that faith. Paul says works are the expression of the faith that avails anything towards receiving God's righteousness:

"6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." Galatians 5:6

​

The expression of faith is not what solicits that righteousness. Faith itself does that.

I just watched a good video on how this Christian who was a part of the Once Saved Always Saved deception was told that if he believed hard enough (i.e. faith), then he would overcome particular sins in his life. This is what he was told by his Pastors and teachers. So he made many attempts to take their advice to heart many times, and each time he did, he still was not able to overcome his sins. Then when he eventually came out of the Protestant deception of faith alone, and he realized that he simply had to obey in faith what God said according to His Word, he was able to overcome his sins he was struggling with. This is actually a Scriptural concept. If we walk in the Spirit, you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16).

 

[Charlie24]

I totally agree that everything that you have said is a waste of time!

Have you stropped sinning, BH?

Sorry, wrong guy.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Have you stropped sinning, BH?

Sorry, wrong guy.

My life whether I am living like the 144,000 or not does undo what the Bible says. Also, the past is the past, and the future is not yet. All we have now is the present. Am I sinning right now? No. Do I plan to sin again? No.

Anyways, the Bible teaches verses like Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, but you don't seem to believe them. It's a matter of faith for you to believe in them, but you choose to walk by sight (your own experience), and not by faith in God's Word. Remember, only eight people made it on the Ark, and Noah was said to be a preacher of righteousness. So this means that the majority view was not the correct one.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What’s silly is that you are denying that walking in the light (loving your brother) is a part of 1 John 1:7.

It is a part of it. What I reject is your claim that the walking in the light part is how a person receives the righteousness that comes from God and, thus, is saved. Faith all by itself does that.