The Positional Platform

[Netchaplain]

So the answer is a rhetorical "No, the leopard cannot change his spots" and there is therefore no reason to even ask whether you believe 1&2Peter, James, or Hebrews is written to you because you basically uphold the canon of Marcion. The only question is do you also cut out the Tanak quotes from the Pauline Epistles as Marcion did? (no need to answer that either as it is likewise rhetorical). The reasons given do not really matter, that is, whether you like to consider it hyper dispensationalism or gnostic dualism, (Marcionism).

I believe you misunderstand my motives but that's common between those who correspond on the internet.

 

[jiggyfly]

A change in the law is not the elimination of the law. The book of Hebrews then goes on to explain those changes, such as a change from flawed human priests to a perfect priest in Jesus. The law is now written into our hearts and is stricter than before. The Law of Moses only required compliance in style, such as do not murder. But, now we are told to comply even in our hearts. To hate our brother is murder. To lust after a woman is adultery.

NetChaplain claims we are free to murder and fornicate. According to him, it's just too much of a burden to ask anyone not to murder and fornicate. That's just legal bondage, he complains.

We are free from the law of sin and death. That means we are no longer slaves to sin doomed to death, not that we are free to sin. If we willingly sin, we are not free of the law of sin and death, and we do not belong to Christ.

We live in a society of increasing immorality, and those who preach we are free from the law (not just from the law of sin and death) are like prosperity preachers, telling corrupt people what they want to hear, that they can live as reprobates and still be saved.

Paul uses the phrase "all things are lawful". Good commentaries (e.g. Matthew Henry) and good Bible translations (see the quote marks the translators use) agree that Paul isn't teaching that all things are lawful. Paul is quoting this phrase (probably used by some Corinthian Christians to defend sexual immorality) to refute it. "'All things are lawful'... Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never!"

Please show us where NC said such things. To make false accusations about others is acceptable behavior for you?

I believe you misunderstand my motives but that's common between those who correspond on the internet.

For you will be expelled from the synagogues, and the time is coming when those who kill you will think they are doing a holy service for God. John 16:2

Be encouraged NC.

 

[Netchaplain]

Please show us where NC said such things. To make false accusations about others is acceptable behavior for you?

For you will be expelled from the synagogues, and the time is coming when those who kill you will think they are doing a holy service for God. John 16:2[/size]

Be encouraged NC.

Hi JF - Thanks but if you don't take offense, you don't get discouraged. Always good to here from you Brother. Those who are use to doing such things will eventually learn not to if they are seeking neighborly love over doctrine.

 

[Episkopos]

"All scripture is given . . . That the man of God may be perfect" (mature, complete--2 Tim 3:16, 17).

Though the above truism is for all Christians, there are passages that are independently directed to unbelieving Jews and those to believing Jews and Gentiles. This is where "dividing the Word" is utilized concerning varying dispensations of God's will.

Please don't get started on dispensationalism!

 

[mjrhealth]

NetChaplain claims we are free to murder and fornicate. According to him, it's just too much of a burden to ask anyone not to murder and fornicate. That's just legal bondage, he complains.

Whos complaining, only those not in Christ come up with these ideas. If I was to get on a bus, and the driver gave me the incorrect change, and i just walked off, all the " under the Law" christians would run around, you broke the law you must pay, but Jesus would stand there quiet happy in the knowledge that I am free in Him the law cannot condemn me,, but than He also knows that because i am free in Him, that I would go back and return what was not mine. No guilt involved, guilt is only there for teh guilty just as teh law is there for the lawless, those not in Christ. But those who are not in Christ cannot even begin to comprehend the freedom that is offered, and so will always walk under condemnation by the law, and they as Jesus put it, will remain in there sin.

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

in all His Love

 

[Netchaplain]

Whos complaining, only those not in Christ come up with these ideas. If I was to get on a bus, and the driver gave me the incorrect change, and i just walked off, all the " under the Law" christians would run around, you broke the law you must pay, but Jesus would stand there quiet happy in the knowledge that I am free in Him the law cannot condemn me,, but than He also knows that because i am free in Him, that I would go back and return what was not mine. No guilt involved, guilt is only there for teh guilty just as teh law is there for the lawless, those not in Christ. But those who are not in Christ cannot even begin to comprehend the freedom that is offered, and so will always walk under condemnation by the law, and they as Jesus put it, will remain in there sin.

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

in all His Love

Hi MJRHealth - Thanks for the instructional reply and God's blessings to your Family!

 

[Episkopos]

Whos complaining, only those not in Christ come up with these ideas. If I was to get on a bus, and the driver gave me the incorrect change, and i just walked off, all the " under the Law" christians would run around, you broke the law you must pay, but Jesus would stand there quiet happy in the knowledge that I am free in Him the law cannot condemn me,, but than He also knows that because i am free in Him, that I would go back and return what was not mine. No guilt involved, guilt is only there for teh guilty just as teh law is there for the lawless, those not in Christ. But those who are not in Christ cannot even begin to comprehend the freedom that is offered, and so will always walk under condemnation by the law, and they as Jesus put it, will remain in there sin.

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

in all His Love

You are speaking of a situation where the person obeys his conscience! But people of other religions do as much or more. So this is not a good explanation of grace.

What if the Christian does not go back....and say...the Hindu does?

What does that say about the Christian and about grace?

Who is behaving the proper way?

Do you think obedience and good conduct count for nothing as many have been deceived to believe?

 

[Levi]

You are speaking of a situation where the person obeys his conscience! But people of other religions do as much or more. So this is not a good explanation of grace.

What if the Christian does not go back....and say...the Hindu does?

What does that say about the Christian and about grace?

Who is behaving the proper way?

Do you think obedience and good conduct count for nothing as many have been deceived to believe?

When I read what mrj wrote, my first thought was he was following the conviction of the Holy Spirit, especially if he is speaking of a situation in the western culture where people want something for nothing, where people like to get everything for "free" and not have to work for it.

You ask if the Christian did not go back - but that is not what happened, the Christian DID go back because the Holy Spirit convicted Him.

I don't want to jump to conclusions, but do you know grace is what empowers Christians to obey????

A buddhist does not have the Holy Spirit, nor is he given grace to empower him to obey the gospel. If a Christian is following the Holy Spirit, he will go above and beyond a buddhist's "good behavior" - that is the difference between a Christian and a Buddhist.

 

[AndyBern]

I think we get into problems and conflicts in our understanding when we confuse the requirements for salvation with those of discipleship. (And trying to add the requirements of the old covenant into the mix only makes it worse.)

Christians are called to live holy and righteous lives, but not to gain favor with God. It is a discipleship thing, a maturing thing. It has nothing to do with salvation, because God has already made us accepted (not just 'acceptable') in Christ:

...to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He did make us accepted in the beloved. (Ephesians 1:4 Youngs)

The saved already have God's favor. Their righteousness is not of works that they do or have done, but of what God has done (salvation) and is doing through them (sanctification).

...not having my righteousness, which [is] of law, but that which [is] through faith of Christ--the righteousness that is of God by the faith. (Philippians 3:9, Youngs)

Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength... (Isaiah 45;24 ESV)

The righteous works that a Christian does is evidence that he is saved, not the reason he is saved.

 

[Episkopos]

When I read what mrj wrote, my first thought was he was following the conviction of the Holy Spirit, especially if he is speaking of a situation in the western culture where people want something for nothing, where people like to get everything for "free" and not have to work for it.

You ask if the Christian did not go back - but that is not what happened, the Christian DID go back because the Holy Spirit convicted Him.

I don't want to jump to conclusions, but do you know grace is what empowers Christians to obey????

A buddhist does not have the Holy Spirit, nor is he given grace to empower him to obey the gospel. If a Christian is following the Holy Spirit, he will go above and beyond a buddhist's "good behavior" - that is the difference between a Christian and a Buddhist.

Of course...but I was using a Hindu in my example!!!

Yes, the Christian who follows the Spirit will go far beyond what men can do. But this is why I am opposed to the OP...which states the exact opposite.

I think we get into problems and conflicts in our understanding when we confuse the requirements for salvation with those of discipleship. (And trying to add the requirements of the old covenant into the mix only makes it worse.)

Christians are called to live holy and righteous lives, but not to gain favor with God. It is a discipleship thing, a maturing thing. It has nothing to do with salvation, because God has already made us accepted (not just 'acceptable') in Christ:

...to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He did make us accepted in the beloved. (Ephesians 1:4 Youngs)

The saved already have God's favor. Their righteousness is not of works that they do or have done, but of what God has done (salvation) and is doing through them (sanctification).

...not having my righteousness, which [is] of law, but that which [is] through faith of Christ--the righteousness that is of God by the faith. (Philippians 3:9, Youngs)

Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength... (Isaiah 45;24 ESV)

The righteous works that a Christian does is evidence that he is saved, not the reason he is saved.

Why do so many do this???? Why do you make the street tilt to one side. Half of what you say is indeed true. But God doesn't use a heavenly dartboard to choose who will be saved or not.

 

[Levi]

Of course...but I was using a Hindu in my example!!!

My bad, that does make a difference.

Yes, the Christian who follows the Spirit will go far beyond what men can do. But this is why I am opposed to the OP...which states the exact opposite.

I read the OP and we could liken it to claiming there is a $1,000,000 sitting in my car right now - so it must be true.

 

[Episkopos]

My bad, that does make a difference.

I read the OP and we could liken it to claiming there is a $1,000,000 sitting in my car right now - so it must be true.

If you really believed that you would be already cashing that cheque and sending it to the poor in say...Hindustan for mission work there! LOL

 

[Netchaplain]

I think we get into problems and conflicts in our understanding when we confuse the requirements for salvation with those of discipleship. (And trying to add the requirements of the old covenant into the mix only makes it worse.)

Christians are called to live holy and righteous lives, but not to gain favor with God. It is a discipleship thing, a maturing thing. It has nothing to do with salvation, because God has already made us accepted (not just 'acceptable') in Christ:

...to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He did make us accepted in the beloved. (Ephesians 1:4 Youngs)

The saved already have God's favor. Their righteousness is not of works that they do or have done, but of what God has done (salvation) and is doing through them (sanctification).

...not having my righteousness, which [is] of law, but that which [is] through faith of Christ--the righteousness that is of God by the faith. (Philippians 3:9, Youngs)

Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength... (Isaiah 45;24 ESV)

The righteous works that a Christian does is evidence that he is saved, not the reason he is saved.

Hi AB - Highly instructional and in much loving-kindness to all! Thanks for the reply.

 

[Levi]

If you really believed that you would be already cashing that cheque and sending it to the poor in say...Hindustan for mission work there! LOL

Ok, yea, that's what I'd do with it.......but only after I satisfy my flesh of course.

 

[Episkopos]

The righteous works that we do before being saved count for righteousness. The wicked things we do before being saved count for wickedness.

All religious agendas aside...GOD'S WAYS ARE EQUAL.

Hard to take in?

Why must people twist the word in order to justify themselves. Isn't the truth enough?

Ok, yea, that's what I'd do with it.......but only after I satisfy my flesh of course.

I thought love was a better way and to give is better than receive?

 

[Netchaplain]

It is helpful to realize that all believers are at varying levels of maturity and in knowing this, gives the understanding that we can expect varying behaviors from believers and therefore not requiring all to think and do the same in situations.

As it is common knowledge, the overall concept in all we do should be out of neighborly love and when this is forgotten, our attitude becomes judgmental, which evinces the need to remind ourselves of this. Doctrine is meaningless (to the hearer and esp. to the speaker) if it does not originate from this (Eph 4:15).

 

[Episkopos]

It is helpful to realize that all believers are at varying levels of maturity and in knowing this, gives the understanding that we can expect varying behaviors from believers and therefore not requiring all to think and do the same in situations.

As it is common knowledge, the overall concept in all we do should be out of neighborly love and when this is forgotten, our attitude becomes judgmental, which evinces the need to remind ourselves of this. Doctrine is meaningless (to the hearer and esp. to the speaker) if it does not originate from this (Eph 4:15).

Agreed! So we can't expect for carnal Christians to be spiritual..but we can urge them on with love into selflessness, full surrender, and a faith that causes God to burn up the sacrifice...that we may truly attain to be seated with Christ.

 

[Netchaplain]

Agreed! So we can't expect for carnal Christians to be spiritual..but we can urge them on with love into selflessness, full surrender, and a faith that causes God to burn up the sacrifice...that we may truly attain to be seated with Christ.

Amen to that. Out of the love from which we have been given an eternal place in the Lord Jesus.

 

[Episkopos]

Amen to that. Out of the love from which we have been given an eternal place in the Lord Jesus.

If that is the case then yes!

But there is a lot of make believe out there (the bible says fables) that makes a person be somewhere when they're not.

Like role playing...and other games like that.

But the bible is not a rulebook to a fantasy game..it is real.


Is a civilian that joins the army a "positional" elite special forces soldier??? Or does he have to meet the requirements and train and sweat and give all to become an elite soldier? Which one is real?

So to pat carnal Christians on the head and tell them they've arrived only serves to destroy them as potential disciples of Christ. Who does this? Who benefits by pretend Christians? The devil himself!!!

 

[Levi]

The righteous works that we do before being saved count for righteousness. The wicked things we do before being saved count for wickedness.


All religious agendas aside...GOD'S WAYS ARE EQUAL.

Hard to take in?

Why must people twist the word in order to justify themselves. Isn't the truth enough?

Levi said:

The wicked things we do before He draws us to Himself are forgotten - they really are! If God held all the wicked things we did before He drew us, we would all perish. In this case, if they remained against us - who could stand? No one! They are not counted at all!





[/QUOTE]

I thought love was a better way and to give is better than receive?

It was a joke.