The Positional Platform

[Episkopos]

Levi said:

The wicked things we do before He draws us to Himself are forgotten - they really are! If God held all the wicked things we did before He drew us, we would all perish. In this case, if they remained against us - who could stand? No one! They are not counted at all!

This is not the subject at hand! The blood of Christ indeed cleanses from all sin. But the resurrection of Christ is in order to walk in HIS righteousness in holiness.

 

[Netchaplain]

If that is the case then yes!

But there is a lot of make believe out there (the bible says fables) that makes a person be somewhere when they're not.

Like role playing...and other games like that.

But the bible is not a rulebook to a fantasy game..it is real.


Is a civilian that joins the army a "positional" elite special forces soldier??? Or does he have to meet the requirements and train and sweat and give all to become an elite soldier? Which one is real?

So to pat carnal Christians on the head and tell them they've arrived only serves to destroy them as potential disciples of Christ. Who does this? Who benefits by pretend Christians? The devil himself!!!

I understand your point and appreciate the analogy, which can be useful.

The reality of determining if one is or isn't a real solder in the Lord's army (saints) is only the Lord's concern (but does help to know for the loving helper), because if he isn't (not being accusative to anyone), it will "find you out" (Num 23:23), because it will become self evident (Matt 7:20; Jam 3:11).

It depends on your definition of "arrive." If they're truly a believer (not just professed but possessed) they have now "eternal life" (1 John 5:3), regardless of the maturity, because there is no other type of salvation other than "eternal salvation" (Heb 5:9), which is an OSAS issue.

After joining, what they do for the duration of the term will evince whether or not they obtained salvation upon entrance, so telling carnal Christians (who are just immature and will eventually mature--Phil 2:13--or they're not Christians) they may not have arrived (if it's salvation you mean) would not be helpful.

The Christian is never completely void of being somewhat carnal his our ways because of the "old man," but he will be mostly carnal if love is not a priority-one attentive.

This is not the subject at hand! The blood of Christ indeed cleanses from all sin. But the resurrection of Christ is in order to walk in HIS righteousness in holiness.

I agree, if it is understood that a holy life is due to our spirit (body later) being resurrected at regeneration and not the reverse.

 

[Levi]

I agree, if it is understood that a holy life is due to our spirit (body later) being resurrected at regeneration and not the reverse.

Pretty sure the Bible says to be holy, present your bodies as living sacrifices - now - at this time.

 

[Episkopos]

I understand your point and appreciate the analogy, which can be useful.

The reality of determining if one is or isn't a real solder in the Lord's army (saints) is only the Lord's concern (but does help to know for the loving helper), because if he isn't (not being accusative to anyone), it will "find you out" (Num 23:23), because it will become self evident (Matt 7:20; Jam 3:11).

It depends on your definition of "arrive." If they're truly a believer (not just professed but possessed) they have now "eternal life" (1 John 5:3), regardless of the maturity, because there is no other type of salvation other than "eternal salvation" (Heb 5:9), which is an OSAS issue.

After joining, what they do for the duration of the term will evince whether or not they obtained salvation upon entrance, so telling carnal Christians (who are just immature and will eventually mature--Phil 2:13--or they're not Christians) they may not have arrived (if it's salvation you mean) would not be helpful.

The Christian is never completely void of being somewhat carnal his our ways because of the "old man," but he will be mostly carnal if love is not a priority-one attentive.

I agree, if it is understood that a holy life is due to our spirit (body later) being resurrected at regeneration and not the reverse.

This is the thing. A person is never there are the beginning...otherwise Paul wouldn't say...ye are yet carnal. And carnal is not a good thing.

So to say that we'll see later if the person was really that at the beginning..is a kind of double speak that makes no sense. Do you see that?

Nobody begins in maturity. A true Christian begins in purity...but only maturity can sustain purity for any length of time.

 

[Netchaplain]

This is the thing. A person is never there are the beginning...otherwise Paul wouldn't say...ye are yet carnal. And carnal is not a good thing.

So to say that we'll see later if the person was really that at the beginning..is a kind of double speak that makes no sense. Do you see that?

Nobody begins in maturity. A true Christian begins in purity...but only maturity can sustain purity for any length of time.

I was referring to being eternally saved, not the maturity level in it and I agree that immaturity in salvation is not good because of missing the joy of Christ and being used of Him.

 

[Episkopos]

I was referring to being eternally saved, not the maturity level in it and I agree that immaturity in salvation is not good because of missing the joy of Christ and being used of Him.

No one is eternally saved at any time in this life! To try making that scheme work we would have to invent positional theologies that backdate certain events...oh wait a minute...there ya go!

So we can dispense with the whole positional platform theory because no one can know where he'll be say....one million years from now!
It is not for us to know...and we are much better off not knowing anyway.

 

[Netchaplain]

Pretty sure the Bible says to be holy, present your bodies as living sacrifices - now - at this time.

A believer, even in the immature, carnal state is holy in his entire being, which was established at regeneration by the Spirit, which cannot be attained by obedience because it is due to the fact of being holy that it will be eventually shown through growth in obedience.

 

[Episkopos]

A believer, even in the immature, carnal state is holy in his entire being, which was established at regeneration by the Spirit, which cannot be attained by obedience because it is due to the fact of being holy that it will be eventually shown through growth in obedience.

Not really! A believer is totally pure and holy at regeneration.

Obedience is required to REMAIN in the purity that the blood of Jesus afforded...otherwise that one must confess his sin, and seek to be again forgiven.

IF we confess our sins..He is faithful to forgive us.

One who is not sinning does not have anything to confess.

 

[Netchaplain]

No one is eternally saved at any time in this life! To try making that scheme work we would have to invent positional theologies that backdate certain events...oh wait a minute...there ya go!

So we can dispense with the whole positional platform theory because no one can know where he'll be say....one million years from now!

It is not for us to know...and we are much better off not knowing anyway.

The primary theme and purpose of the Gospel is knowing you have eternal life, in this life, which cannot be avoided, for this life is the only time faith in this and in all the things of God are used. Faith will not be necessary in the next life concerning this most sacred truth of the believer's place in the Lord Jesus, because we will no longer be walking by faith, but by sight!

This is the only passage I will post for now concerning this because it would require the entirety of Scripture to present this truism:

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life" (1 John 5:13).

 

[daq]

I think we get into problems and conflicts in our understanding when we confuse the requirements for salvation with those of discipleship. (And trying to add the requirements of the old covenant into the mix only makes it worse.)

John 2:1-11 KJV
1. And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
2. And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
3. And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
4. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
5. His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
6. And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
7. Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
8. And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
9. When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10. And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
11. This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

If your theology were true then the miracle at Cana would be a lie because Yeshua clearly mixes fresh water with the washwater purification rites of the Jews to make the BEST WINE. The six stone jars were not first emptied of their contents, ("two or three firkins apiece"). Six is the number of man, the stone jar is the heart of the man before it is transformed, (also likened to a cistern whether above ground or below) and the wines are the covenants.

 

[Netchaplain]

Not really! A believer is totally pure and holy at regeneration.

Obedience is required to REMAIN in the purity that the blood of Jesus afforded...otherwise that one must confess his sin, and seek to be again forgiven.

IF we confess our sins..He is faithful to forgive us.

One who is not sinning does not have anything to confess.

Purity and Holiness are synonymous my beloved Brother and obedience is not required but rather will be evident in the life of the believer. Forgiveness is a single occurrence at rebirth, for all sins in the believer's life. It's the confessing, or admitting the sins that is ongoing, which a regenerate will be compelled to do by the Spirit and because of God's goodness which, "leadeth thee to repentance" (Rom 2:4).

 

[Episkopos]

The primary theme and purpose of the Gospel is knowing you have eternal life, in this life, which cannot be avoided, for this life is the only time faith in this and in all the things of God are used. Faith will not be necessary in the next life concerning this most sacred truth of the believer's place in the Lord Jesus, because we will no longer be walking by faith, but by sight!

This is the only passage I will post for now concerning this because it would require the entirety of Scripture to present this truism:

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life" (1 John 5:13).

Actually the purpose of the gospel is that we might God and His Son. We come to God that we might have life. We exercise faith that we should walk in life.
Walking in an eternal life while still on earth is not he same as saying I'm eternally saved. Judgment comes before that.

God decides these things...not every man for himself based on favourite verses.

One must be careful to not walk in presumption....but just in the Spirit.

 

[Netchaplain]

Actually the purpose of the gospel is that we might God and His Son. We come to God that we might have life. We exercise faith that we should walk in life.
Walking in an eternal life while still on earth is not he same as saying I'm eternally saved. Judgment comes before that.

God decides these things...not every man for himself based on favourite verses.

One must be careful to not walk in presumption....but just in the Spirit.

I do not want to attempt to convince you of this truth because it requires the Holy Spirit to teach you this. Not saying this out of competition or offense, but not knowing if you're in Christ and out of "condemnation" (Rom 8:1) is the same mindset as one who is without Christ.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I do not want to attempt to convince you of this truth because it requires the Holy Spirit to teach you this. Not saying this out of competition or offense, but not knowing if you're in Christ and out of "condemnation" (Rom 8:1) is the same mindset as one who is without Christ.

He doesn't understand the covenant, IMO. Does that sound plausible?

 

[Episkopos]

I do not want to attempt to convince you of this truth because it requires the Holy Spirit to teach you this. Not saying this out of competition or offense, but not knowing if you're in Christ and out of "condemnation" (Rom 8:1) is the same mindset as one who is without Christ.

Well actually it is a human thing to declare things for himself. This life is a race towards the knowledge of God and the life of Christ. We are runners in this race. But who ever heard of a runner that declares himself a winner?

Jesus says..to he that overcomes...not...to he who says he overcomes.

2Co_10:18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

So you may speculate whether that is a "saved" attitude or not. But it is God who judges.

He doesn't understand the covenant, IMO. Does that sound plausible?

Certainly not with the carnal mind!!

 

[Netchaplain]

Well actually it is a human thing to declare things for himself. This life is a race towards the knowledge of God and the life of Christ. We are runners in this race. But who ever heard of a runner that declares himself a winner?

Jesus says..to he that overcomes...not...to he who says he overcomes.

2Co_10:18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

So you may speculate whether that is a "saved" attitude or not. But it is God who judges.

Certainly not with the carnal mind!!

I believe that if you are unsure of this issue and need to debate it, there's not much one can effectively share with you about it at this time. It involves so much of Scripture that it would require an excessive amount of correspondence of which, even though I'm retired, do not have.

Wishing the best for you and your Family!

 

[Episkopos]

I believe that if you are unsure of this issue and need to debate it, there's not much one can effectively share with you about it at this time. It involves so much of Scripture that it would require an excessive amount of correspondence of which, even though I'm retired, do not have.

Wishing the best for you and your Family!

It isn't a bible verse issue but a life issue. If we walk in the Spirit we experience the power of the life to come. But nobody owns the Holy Spirit. God will decide whom will live on and in what capacity they will do so.

Anybody can speculate. It is very human to do so. It should not be forgotten that many say Lord Lord...but the Lord will deny these entry into the kingdom. Knowing this we should never assume no matter how certain we may feel we are but rather run with endurance and fear that we might measure up to the saints of old!

 

[Netchaplain]

Never Guilty—Never Disappointed

Sorry but this was accidentally posted in this thread but was intended for a new topic.

 

[Episkopos]

A balanced view of the bible sees that God is BOTH good AND severe in His judgments. Have Christians gone beyond the reach of God's severity and can now only enjoy His goodness?

Well this position is foolishness.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Being highminded IS foolishness. To consider that all is ok forever now because you have accepted some truth doesn't make you immune for what you do in the body.

We need to fear...not be highminded and smug. In that way we can avoid the error of the original people who thought God would never reject them either.


Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

God has no favourites. He is looking for fruit! Fear the Lord and depart from wickedness...surrender to the Lord and be a vessel in His service. THEN you may find a place in His kingdom.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

God has BOTH attributes. Paul is warning us Gentiles to not be foolish. Remember the 10 virgins. What happened to the foolish ones?

So be zealous and become wise. God is not partial in judgment. He is IMpartial. We need to win through faith what others think they possess already. Run to win!!!




Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, (POSITIONALLY) I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art (IN REALITY) wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Understanding one's position in Christ is not high-mindedness or self-assuredness. It is recognition of the inheritance in Christ secured through the new covenant that each believer has been given, and resting assured that Christ will perform what he has promised. Those who are self-assured in themselves is the real problem.