The Problem with 2 Peter 1:1

[DavidB]

2 Peter 1:1 is often used to support the trinity.
“Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:”

Here is the problem.

Granville Sharp made a rule in 1798. Sharp's Rule says, in effect, that when two or more words (nouns) in the original Greek NT text are joined by the word "and," they all refer to the same person if the word "the" comes before the first noun and not before the other nouns.

Many respected NT experts and translators have rejected Sharp's Rule. For example: G. B. Winer; J. H. Moulton; C. F. D. Moule; Dr. James Moffatt (see Titus 2:13; and 1 Tim. 5:21); Dr. William Barclay (2 Thess. 1:12); and Roman Catholic scholar Karl Rahner (2 Peter 1:1).

Notice these translations of 2 Peter 1:1.
KJV - “through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"
ASV - "in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ"
RSV footnote - “of our God and the Savior Jesus Christ”
Weymouth - “through the righteousness of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ."
NWT “through the righteousness of our God and the Savior Jesus Christ”

The most frequently used “Sharp’s Rule” verse is Titus 2:13. These translations also reject the made up rule and do not support the trinity.
KJV - “of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Moffatt - "of the Glory of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus,"
NABRE - "of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ,"
NLV - "of our great God and the One Who saves, Christ Jesus."
RSV footnote - “of the great God and our Savior”
CJB - "of our great God and the appearing of our Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah."
GNV - "of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ."
Phillips - "of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour.
Coverdale - “of ye greate God and of oure Sauioure Iesu Christ.”
Wycliffe - “of the greet God, and of oure sauyour Jhesu Crist;”
Tyndale - “ye myghty god and of oure savioure Iesu Christ.”
Mace- “of the supreme God, and of our saviour Jesus Christ,”
Noyes - “of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ;”
Riverside - “of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus,”
NWT - "of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ,"

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yep, its all in the way you want to read it.....or the placement of a comma such as in Luke 23:43....it can make a scripture say the opposite to what it actually does.

NASB..."And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

NIV..."Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

TEB..."And he said unto him—Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise."

NWT...."And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

With the placement of the comma (or colon) after the wrong word, it changes the meaning of the whole statement.
So it is with 2 Peter 1:1....move the comma.....
"To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ".

"To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God, and Savior Jesus Christ'.

Greek has no punctuation, so it is left up to translators to place the punctuation in the appropriate places for the English translation.

What happens if you are a pro-trinitarian translator? How would you read it if there was no trinity?

 

[PinSeeker]

Greek has no punctuation, so it is left up to translators to place the punctuation in the appropriate places for the English translation.

Agreed. But so, even in the same verse, why does the New World Translation have a comma inserted between "Simon Peter" and "a slave and servant"? Why is that, AJ?

But to the point under discussion here, the English Standard Version (ESV) reads, "...by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ..."

Look. The insertion of the comma by some translations (in either case) is not heretical, but can be misunderstood (the wrong inference can be made). Even so, the Word of God is still the Word of God. The comma can only "change the meaning of the text" in the eye of the beholder, who may or may not be leaning on his/her own understanding, which, of course, God implores us through Solomon not to do. In any case, Jesus Christ is both God and Savior. To separate the two ~ 'God' from 'Savior' or vice-versa ~ would be to suggest (to my implication above) that Peter, earlier in the same verse, separates himself 'bond-servant' and 'apostle' of Jesus Christ and makes himself out to be two (or possibly three) different people, a ridiculous supposition.

Samuel, the writer of 1st and 2nd Kings, David, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Hosea, Luke, Paul, Peter, Jude... they all acknowledge God and Jesus to be Savior in various places:

2 Samuel 22:3 ~ "...my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge, my Savior..."

2 Kings 13:5 ~ "Therefore the LORD gave Israel a Savior..."

Psalm 17:7 ~ "Wondrously show your steadfast love, O Savior of those who seek refuge from their adversaries at your right hand."

Psalm 106:21 ~ "They forgot God, their Savior, who had done great things in Egypt,"

Isaiah 19:20 ~ "It will be a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt. When they cry to the LORD because of oppressors, He will send them a Savior and defender, and deliver them."

Isaiah 43:3 ~ "For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior."

Isaiah 43:11 ~ "I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no Savior."

Isaiah 45:15 ~ "Truly, you are a God who hides himself, O God of Israel, the Savior."

Isaiah 45:21 ~ "Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides Me."

Isaiah 49:26 ~ "I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh, and they shall be drunk with their own blood as with wine. Then all flesh shall know that I am the LORD your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”

Isaiah 60:16 ~ "You shall suck the milk of nations; you shall nurse at the breast of kings; and you shall know that I, the LORD, am your Savior and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."

Isaiah 63:8 ~ "For He (the LORD, from 63:7) said, 'Surely they are My people, children who will not deal falsely.' And He became their Savior."

Jeremiah 14:8 ~ "O you (LORD, from 14:7) hope of Israel, its Savior in time of trouble, why should you be like a stranger in the land, like a traveler who turns aside to tarry for a night?"

Hosea 13:4 ~ "But I am the LORD your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no Savior."

Luke 1:47 ~ "...and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior..." (Mary)

Luke 2:11 ~ "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord" (an angel of the Lord; this is also an acknowledgement of God as Lord).

John 4:42 ~ "They said to the woman, 'It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.'”

Acts 5:31 ~ "God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."

Acts 13:23 ~ "Of this man's offspring God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as He promised."

Ephesians 5:23 ~ "For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior."

Philippians 3:20 ~ "But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ..."

1 Timothy 1:1 ~ "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope..."

1 Timothy 2:3 ~ "This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior..."

1 Timothy 4:10 ~ "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."

2 Timothy 1:10 ~ "and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel..."

Titus 1:3 ~ and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior;

Titus 1:4 ~ "To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior."

Titus 2:10 ~ "...not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior."

Titus 2:13 ~ "...waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ..."

Titus 3:4 ~ "But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared..."

Titus 3:6 ~ "...Whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior..."

2 Peter 1:1 ~ "Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ..."

2 Peter 1:11 ~ "For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

2 Peter 2:20 ~ "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first."

2 Peter 3:2 ~ "...that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,"

2 Peter 3:18 ~ "But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen."

1 John 4:14 ~ "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world."

Jude 1:25 ~ "...to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."​

Likewise, God (the Father) is acknowledged in many places throughout the Bible as Lord. This is the Word of the Lord. Thanks be to God.

 

[Rich R]

2 Peter 1:1 is often used to support the trinity.
“Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:”

Here is the problem.

Granville Sharp made a rule in 1798. Sharp's Rule says, in effect, that when two or more words (nouns) in the original Greek NT text are joined by the word "and," they all refer to the same person if the word "the" comes before the first noun and not before the other nouns.

Many respected NT experts and translators have rejected Sharp's Rule. For example: G. B. Winer; J. H. Moulton; C. F. D. Moule; Dr. James Moffatt (see Titus 2:13; and 1 Tim. 5:21); Dr. William Barclay (2 Thess. 1:12); and Roman Catholic scholar Karl Rahner (2 Peter 1:1).

Notice these translations of 2 Peter 1:1.
KJV - “through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"
ASV - "in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ"
RSV footnote - “of our God and the Savior Jesus Christ”
Weymouth - “through the righteousness of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ."
NWT “through the righteousness of our God and the Savior Jesus Christ”

The most frequently used “Sharp’s Rule” verse is Titus 2:13. These translations also reject the made up rule and do not support the trinity.
KJV - “of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Moffatt - "of the Glory of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus,"
NABRE - "of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ,"
NLV - "of our great God and the One Who saves, Christ Jesus."
RSV footnote - “of the great God and our Savior”
CJB - "of our great God and the appearing of our Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah."
GNV - "of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ."
Phillips - "of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour.
Coverdale - “of ye greate God and of oure Sauioure Iesu Christ.”
Wycliffe - “of the greet God, and of oure sauyour Jhesu Crist;”
Tyndale - “ye myghty god and of oure savioure Iesu Christ.”
Mace- “of the supreme God, and of our saviour Jesus Christ,”
Noyes - “of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ;”
Riverside - “of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus,”
NWT - "of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ,"

There is much written about Sharp's rule, but most is quite technical, frankly beyond my ability to fully comprehend. But I do know that there a many reputable scholars who disagree with it. It's not something cast in stone for sure.

The many translations you noted also indicate that there is not complete agreement on the translation of this one verse. In other words, it's not totally clear what this verse is saying if we look at this verse in isolation. What we can do is look at other verses on the same subject. I believe there are many more clear verses that would preclude the trinity than the other way around. For example, John 4:29, John 8:40,Acts 2:22, Acts 17:31, Romans 5:15 and 1 Tim 2:5 all explicitly call Jesus a man. There simply are no equally clear verses that say he is God.

For what it's worth, here's the Peshitta Aramaic text:

"Shimeon Petraus, a Servant and an Apostle of Yeshua The Messiah to those who, equal in honor with us, were worthy for the faith by the righteousness of Our Lord and Our Savior Yeshua The Messiah"
​

I understand there is debate as to the validity of Aramaic, but it's there nonetheless. Whoever wrote it, whenever they wrote it, they had a reason to write it the way they did.

​

I think it also noteworthy that Peter said,

"Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."
​

YHWH here is called the God and Father of Jesus. That God, YHWH, is in truth the same God and Father of all Christians.

John 20:17,

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
​

Born again Christians have the same God and Father as Jesus. If 1 Peter 1:1 says Jesus is God, we need to find out who that God of God is because He's also our God. Sorry to get so convoluted, but how else could it be said that Jesus, supposedly God, has a God? There's no simple explanation for that.

God bless.

​

 

[Rich R]

Agreed. But so, even in the same verse, why does the New World Translation have a comma inserted between "Simon Peter" and "a slave and servant"? Why is that, AJ?

But to the point under discussion here, the English Standard Version (ESV) reads, "...by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ..."

Look. The insertion of the comma by some translations (in either case) is not heretical, but can be misunderstood (the wrong inference can be made). Even so, the Word of God is still the Word of God. The comma can only "change the meaning of the text" in the eye of the beholder, who may or may not be leaning on his/her own understanding, which, of course, God implores us through Solomon not to do. In any case, Jesus Christ is both God and Savior. To separate the two ~ 'God' from 'Savior' or vice-versa ~ would be to suggest (to my implication above) that Peter, earlier in the same verse, separates himself 'bond-servant' and 'apostle' of Jesus Christ and makes himself out to be two (or possibly three) different people, a ridiculous supposition.

Samuel, the writer of 1st and 2nd Kings, David, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Hosea, Luke, Paul, Peter, Jude... they all acknowledge God and Jesus to be Savior in various places:

2 Samuel 22:3 ~ "...my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge, my Savior..."

2 Kings 13:5 ~ "Therefore the LORD gave Israel a Savior..."

Psalm 17:7 ~ "Wondrously show your steadfast love, O Savior of those who seek refuge from their adversaries at your right hand."

Psalm 106:21 ~ "They forgot God, their Savior, who had done great things in Egypt,"

Isaiah 19:20 ~ "It will be a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt. When they cry to the LORD because of oppressors, He will send them a Savior and defender, and deliver them."

Isaiah 43:3 ~ "For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior."

Isaiah 43:11 ~ "I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no Savior."

Isaiah 45:15 ~ "Truly, you are a God who hides himself, O God of Israel, the Savior."

Isaiah 45:21 ~ "Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides Me."

Isaiah 49:26 ~ "I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh, and they shall be drunk with their own blood as with wine. Then all flesh shall know that I am the LORD your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”

Isaiah 60:16 ~ "You shall suck the milk of nations; you shall nurse at the breast of kings; and you shall know that I, the LORD, am your Savior and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."

Isaiah 63:8 ~ "For He (the LORD, from 63:7) said, 'Surely they are My people, children who will not deal falsely.' And He became their Savior."

Jeremiah 14:8 ~ "O you (LORD, from 14:7) hope of Israel, its Savior in time of trouble, why should you be like a stranger in the land, like a traveler who turns aside to tarry for a night?"

Hosea 13:4 ~ "But I am the LORD your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no Savior."

Luke 1:47 ~ "...and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior..." (Mary)

Luke 2:11 ~ "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord" (an angel of the Lord; this is also an acknowledgement of God as Lord).

John 4:42 ~ "They said to the woman, 'It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.'”

Acts 5:31 ~ "God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."

Acts 13:23 ~ "Of this man's offspring God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as He promised.".​

​

Yes, Jesus and God are both called our savior, but that in and of itself does not say they are one and the same person. In the Ancient Near East, an agent had virtually the same power and authority as the one who sent them. Joseph and Pharaoh are a great illustration of this concept.

Gen 41:40,

Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.
​

Since the OT foreshadows Jesus (John 5:39), this verse describes Jesus' relationship to God.

Jesus was God's agent. That is why John says God gave Jesus the authority to judge.

John 5:22,

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
​

God giving something to another part? Being equal, wouldn't they all just have the power of judgment?

Acts 10:38,

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
​

One part of God anointing another part with power? Wouldn't all parts just have what the other parts have? Why in the world have we come to even talking about different parts of one God? It's insane! But it's perfectly sane to say Jesus is God's son. In fact, Jesus is called the son of God some 50 times. Never is he called God the Son. It requires going to Pagan sources for that appellation. Besides, in what world is a son his own father?

John 5:26,

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
​

Why would one part of God have to give anything to another part?

John 3:35,

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
​

One part of God gave another part all things?

It might help to understand why God inspired John to write his gospel.

John 20:30-31,

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

All the verses I quoted above fit with what John says was his purpose in writing his gospel, i.e. to show that Jesus was the anointed one and His son. His gospel was not written to prove Jesus was God. That's really interesting because John is probably the most used book to prove Jesus is God. They even go so far to change John 1:1 to read, "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God." They do so without giving any thought whatsoever as to what the word "word" actually means. Suffice it to say, substituting the word "Jesus" for "logos" (the Greek for "word" in John 1:1) in one fell stroke minimizes the brilliance of God's plan to redeem man as well as the true heroism of the man Jesus Christ. God obeyed His own commands, not missing one jot or tittle; big deal! But for a man to do that is beyond incredible. God believed Himself that He'd raise Himself from the dead: again, big deal! But for a man who was tempted just like us, who had the same infirmities, to believe that seemingly impossible fete is also beyond amazing. And Jesus did it because he loved the unlovable that much.

But Jesus won't always be God's agent.

1 Cor 15:28,

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
​

One part of God subject to another part? Anyone can keep the trinity if they like, but the complications increase exponentially.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes, Jesus and God are both called our savior, but that in and of itself does not say they are one and the same person.

Right. They are two distinct Persons, the Father and the Son, but both members of the (one) triune Jehovah (the Holy Spirit being the third). Jesus Himself is very clear regarding this throughout his teaching in John 13-17, particularly John 14.

(John's) gospel was not written to prove Jesus was God. That's really interesting because John is probably the most used book to prove Jesus is God.

No, but it was written to state, throughout, that Jesus is God in the flesh. The theme runs throughout, and is made manifest in many different ways, from John 1:1 to John 21:25. John states his own purpose in writing his gospel at the end of chapter 20, which is "so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name."

They even go so far to change John 1:1 to read, "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God."

Well, I agree that is an over-simplification of sorts, maybe, but Christ Jesus is the Word made flesh. John 1:14 is very clear on that; having just said the Word was always, from eternity past, with God, and was always, from eternity past, God, he states in verse 14 that "...the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

One part of God subject to another part?

Yeah no. Agreed. But Christ did lay aside for a time His deity for our sake (Philippians 2), and as man fully submitted Himself to the will of the Father, for our sake. It is nothing short of amazing, and even far more than we can really even comprehend, finite creatures that we are.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

No, but it was written to state, throughout, that Jesus is God in the flesh. The theme runs throughout, and is made manifest in many different ways, from John 1:1 to John 21:25. John states his own purpose in writing his gospel at the end of chapter 20, which is "so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name."

How is, "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God" the same as, "Jesus is God in the flesh?" The two statements are diametrically opposed to each other.

If words have any meaning, one person can't be a son and their own father at the same time. If so, then it opens up the floodgates to assign any meaning we want to any word. If we do that, the Bible is useless. God refined every word 7 times. There is no indication that God changed the meaning of either "son" or "father."

We all agree on the meaning of words. Why do we change the relationship between a son and a father so as to make them both one person when it comes to the Bible? We would be aghast if we tried that in any other arena of life. We would all scream, "that doesn't make any sense!" What is it about the scriptures that causes us to abandon such an incredible easy concept? It baffles me to no end. But that's just me,

God bless you brother!

 

[Enoch111]

2 Peter 1:1 is often used to support the trinity.

So we have another anti-Trinitarian showing up and making a vain attempt to deny that Jesus is indeed God our Savior. How pathetic. Just keep in mind that those who deny that Jesus is God are (a) antichrist and (b) face eternal damnation. Jesus told the Jews that if they did not believe that He was "I AM" (God) they would die in their sins. The same holds true today. There are several passages which call Jesus Christ our great God and Savior. Indeed He could not be Savior unless He is also God.

John Gill's commentary on 2 Peter 1:1 is most appropriate:
"...through the righteousness of God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ; or "of our God, and Saviour Jesus Christ", as the Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions read; that is, of Christ Jesus, who is our God and Saviour: so that here is a testimony of the deity of Christ, as well as of his character as a Saviour, who is an able and a willing one, a full, complete, suitable, and only Saviour: and the reason why he is so is because he is truly and properly "God"; and why he is so to us, because he is "our" God: wherefore by "righteousness" here, cannot be meant the goodness and mercy of God, as some think, though faith undoubtedly comes through that; nor the faithfulness of God making good his purpose and promise of giving faith to his elect, as others think: but the righteousness of Christ, which is not the righteousness of a creature, but of God; that is wrought out by one that is God, as well as man, and so answerable to all the purposes for which it is brought in."

 

[Rich R]

Right. They are two distinct Persons, the Father and the Son, but both members of the (one) triune Jehovah (the Holy Spirit being the third). Jesus Himself is very clear regarding this throughout his teaching in John 13-17, particularly John 14.

What is it in John 14 that says the Jesus, his Father, and the Comforter are all one person? Why not take it as we usually do when three entities are mentioned in a piece of writing? Three entities mean three entities. We read things that way all the time. I know of no other writing where three people are somehow construed to be one person.

Verse 10 makes a clear distinction between the words of Jesus and those of his Father. Is God confused as to whose words are whose?

Verse 11 says Jesus was in God and visa versa? God is in God?

Verse 28 says Jesus' Father is greater than he is. How does that work? I thought they were all supposedly equal.

All of these problems go away if we simply use the same meaning of words we normally use and apply them to these verses (Indeed, the whole Bible). If we simply use the normal meaning of the words "father" and "son" to Jesus and his Father, these 3 verses (and many more) suddenly make sense.

 

[Rich R]

So we have another anti-Trinitarian showing up and making a vain attempt to deny that Jesus is indeed God our Savior. How pathetic. Just keep in mind that those who deny that Jesus is God are (a) antichrist and (b) face eternal damnation. Jesus told the Jews that if they did not believe that He was "I AM" (God) they would die in their sins. The same holds true today.

Acts 2:38,

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.​

Acts 16:31,

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.​

Rom 10:9,

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
​

I looked in vain for a verse that said one must believe Jesus is God to be saved. Why do Trinitarians always say that?

 

[Enoch111]

I looked in vain for a verse that said one must believe Jesus is God to be saved. Why do Trinitarians always say that?

Because Jesus said it Himself: [Jesus said] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM [he], ye shall die in your sins. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. (John 8:24:25)

Please note that the KJB translators should not have (a) inserted "he" in italics in verse 24 and (b) they should have capitalized "AM". Why? because Jesus identified Himself as "I AM" to Moses, and also told the Jews "Before Abraham was I AM". Whenever Jesus declared "Verily, Verily" (Truly. Truly or Amen, Amen) He was making a solemn declaration of something which was absolutely true and must be taken to heart. And here is what He said: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. (John 8:58)

This corresponds to what Jesus (as "the Angel of the LORD") said to Moses: And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Exod 3:14).

 

[amigo de christo]

So we have another anti-Trinitarian showing up and making a vain attempt to deny that Jesus is indeed God our Savior. How pathetic. Just keep in mind that those who deny that Jesus is God are (a) antichrist and (b) face eternal damnation. Jesus told the Jews that if they did not believe that He was "I AM" (God) they would die in their sins. The same holds true today. There are several passages which call Jesus Christ our great God and Savior. Indeed He could not be Savior unless He is also God.

John Gill's commentary on 2 Peter 1:1 is most appropriate:
"...through the righteousness of God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ; or "of our God, and Saviour Jesus Christ", as the Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions read; that is, of Christ Jesus, who is our God and Saviour: so that here is a testimony of the deity of Christ, as well as of his character as a Saviour, who is an able and a willing one, a full, complete, suitable, and only Saviour: and the reason why he is so is because he is truly and properly "God"; and why he is so to us, because he is "our" God: wherefore by "righteousness" here, cannot be meant the goodness and mercy of God, as some think, though faith undoubtedly comes through that; nor the faithfulness of God making good his purpose and promise of giving faith to his elect, as others think: but the righteousness of Christ, which is not the righteousness of a creature, but of God; that is wrought out by one that is God, as well as man, and so answerable to all the purposes for which it is brought in."

The glorious gospel of Christ is under attack big time .
You probably already know what i am about to say next .
IN ORDER to get folks to follow a one world religious mindset
the DIETY of CHRIST had to be removed so as he could just be seen as at most another prophet .
YEAH , but WE AINT BUYING WHAT THEY ARE SELLING . Cling to the LORD my friend . Its only gonna get worse .
Oh but the lambs have all hope for our HOPE is in the GLORIOUS LORD .

 

[PinSeeker]

What is it in John 14 that says the Jesus, his Father, and the Comforter are all one person?

Nothing; that's not what I'm saying... and precisely opposite to what I have said, actually. They are distinct Persons (entities), and each has a distinct purpose. This what is very clear in John 14. But they all, together, in perfect unity, are one with each other ~ each in the other and the other in each (as Jesus said regarding He and the Father in John 10:38) ~ Persons of the absolutely unified triune Jehovah, the one true God.

Why not take it as we usually do when three entities are mentioned in a piece of writing? Three entities mean three entities. We read things that way all the time. I know of no other writing where three people are somehow construed to be one person.

Agreed.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

Nothing; that's not what I'm saying... and precisely opposite to what I have said, actually. They are distinct Persons (entities), and each has a distinct purpose. But they all, together, in perfect unity, are Persons of the absolutely unified triune Johovah, the one true God.

Oops. I better be more careful in my reading!

 

[Aunty Jane]

But so, even in the same verse, why does the New World Translation have a comma inserted between "Simon Peter" and "a slave and servant"? Why is that, AJ?

HUH?

What are you saying? That the NWT is the only translation to insert the comma there? All English translations have a comma there....
What is your point?
English grammar is the only reason for any punctuation, which is completely missing in Koine Greek. The English translators had to insert it.

Look. The insertion of the comma by some translations (in either case) is not heretical, but can be misunderstood (the wrong inference can be made). Even so, the Word of God is still the Word of God. The comma can only "change the meaning of the text" in the eye of the beholder, who may or may not be leaning on his/her own understanding, which, of course, God implores us through Solomon not to do. In any case, Jesus Christ is both God and Savior.

There is not a single, clear and direct admission by either God Yahweh, or his son that they are equal parts of a "godhead" with the 'holy spirit....
If you can find one I'd like to see it.

Both Yahweh and Jesus are "saviors" because that only means a rescuer.....the one who sends the savior is also a savior.
Yahweh sent Othniel as a "savior" (deliverer) for Israel. (Judges 3:9)

The word "sōtēr" means "deliverer, same word as "savior" in each passage.
Acts 13:23...NASB...
"From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus".

To separate the two ~ 'God' from 'Savior' or vice-versa ~ would be to suggest (to my implication above) that Peter, earlier in the same verse, separates himself 'bond-servant' and 'apostle' of Jesus Christ and makes himself out to be two (or possibly three) different people, a ridiculous supposition.

That is a great bit of tap dancing when none is required. God and his Christ both fit the same role for the same purpose.

Titus 1:4...
"To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour."
Titus separates God the Father from his Savior......the one Jesus himself admits, "sent" him whilst addressing his Father as "the only true God". (John 17:3) One of us is twisting scripture....and it isn't me.

Samuel, the writer of 1st and 2nd Kings, David, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Hosea, Luke, Paul, Peter, Jude... they all acknowledge God and Jesus to be Savior in various places:

You seem to think that because Yahweh and his Son share titles that it must mean that they are and the same person....they aren't. Only one is Yahweh (Deuteronomy 6:4) who has only one name, (Psalm 83:18) and the other is his "holy servant Jesus" (acts 4:27) who has many roles and many names. But Yahweh is always his God, even in heaven. (Revelation 3:12)

Both the Father and his son are said to be "saviors"...so both carry that title, the same as both can be addressed by the respectful title "Lord"...but it doesn't mean that both are God Almighty.

The Bible does not teach a trinity and never has.

 

[DavidB]

So far it has been shown that 1 John 5:7 and 2 Peter 1:1 are both, at best, disputed as verses that support the trinity. There are several other trinitarian “proof”scriptures that translators don’t agree about. It is noteworthy that most of these the translators are trinitarian. I’ll post more later for your comments.

 

[DavidB]

Because Jesus said it Himself: [Jesus said] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM [he], ye shall die in your sins. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. (John 8:24:25)

Please note that the KJB translators should not have (a) inserted "he" in italics in verse 24 and (b) they should have capitalized "AM". Why? because Jesus identified Himself as "I AM" to Moses, and also told the Jews "Before Abraham was I AM". Whenever Jesus declared "Verily, Verily" (Truly. Truly or Amen, Amen) He was making a solemn declaration of something which was absolutely true and must be taken to heart. And here is what He said: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. (John 8:58)

This corresponds to what Jesus (as "the Angel of the LORD") said to Moses: And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Exod 3:14).

You might benefit from looking at John 4:24 at biblegateway.com. Notice how the great majority of translations add “he” or “the one” or even “the Messiah.” I think it’s about 50 out of 60. Look too at how few capitalize “am” there and at John 8:58. That shows they don’t view ego eimi there as a name or title as they do at Exodus 3:14. Hope that helps you a little.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The glorious gospel of Christ is under attack big time .
You probably already know what i am about to say next .
IN ORDER to get folks to follow a one world religious mindset
the DIETY of CHRIST had to be removed so as he could just be seen as at most another prophet .

Do you really believe that this is what this ongoing debate is all about?
The "deity of Jesus Christ" was never mentioned by him or his Father in any passage of scripture....so what was added centuries ago, has been removed by non-trinitarians because it was never there in the first place.

Those who deny the trinity have ample scriptural proof that it was not taught to the children of Israel who would never have accepted that their Messiah was God incarnate as that would have been blasphemous....a clear breach of the first Commandment. No one was to put other "gods" in the place of Yahweh.

Christendom claims to worship one God in three persons, but the Catholic church who instituted it into their doctrines over 300 years after Christ's death, named three "gods"...."God the Father", "God the Son", and "God the Holy Spirit"....this is the foundation of the trinity....it is not scriptural even as the Catholic church itself admits....

The New Catholic Encyclopedia stated: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

YEAH , but WE AINT BUYING WHAT THEY ARE SELLING .

You didn't have to "buy" the trinity in the first place.....my guess is that most people were indoctrinated with it from birth and have no idea where it came from. It was taught as the very foundational doctrine of the church, and yet it cannot be found expressly stated in any scripture...OT or NT.
This was my situation as well.....I was raised with Christendom's teachings about the nature of God, but it never made sense to me and no one could explain it scripturally or logically, so I started to do my own research...and guess what? I discovered that the ancient Jews and the first Christians had never heard of it. It had to be skillfully woven into ambiguous verses and suggested as part of mistranslation hundreds of years after the death of Christ....along with a range of other adopted pagan ideas that came along as time went on. ...too many to enumerate, but the big three are the 'trinity, immortality of the soul and hellfire'.....none of which are taught in the Bible but are merely suggested by misinterpretation or mistranslation.

Cling to the LORD my friend . Its only gonna get worse .
Oh but the lambs have all hope for our HOPE is in the GLORIOUS LORD .

I believe that your "glorious Lord" is about to disappoint those who have altered the very nature of the one true God, and put two other 'gods' in his place.....(Exodus 20:3) but that is not my call.....Jesus will let us all know soon enough if we are on the right road.....(Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23)
Don't forget...it is not the "many" who will be saved.....only the "few" whom the father has drawn to his truth. (John 6:44; 65)

 

[PinSeeker]

HUH?

"HUH???"

What are you saying? That the NWT is the only translation to insert the comma there? All English translations have a comma there.... What is your point?

The question I asked ("Why is there a comma between 'Simon Peter' and 'a slave' in the first part of 2 Peter 1?" ~ the NWT has a comma there... which is fine, really...) was a rhetorical one, Aunty Jane ~ the point of which you obviously either avoided or totally missed. And to your question here, I told you, Aunty Jane, quite clearly what my point was, regarding 'God' and 'Savior' in the latter part of the same verse, that to separate the two ~ 'God' from 'Savior' or vice-versa ~ and to make either one mutually exclusive from the other would be to suggest (to my implication above) that Peter, earlier in the same verse, separates himself from the 'bond-servant' and 'apostle' of Jesus Christ and makes himself out to be two (or possibly three) different people, a ridiculous supposition. So just like Simon Peter is the bond-servant/slave and apostle of Jesus Christ and the bond-servant/slave and apostle of Christ is Peter, God is our Savior (and I listed passages from all through the Bible saying such above), and the Savior is God.

English grammar is the only reason for any punctuation, which is completely missing in Koine Greek. The English translators had to insert it.

That's absolutely true, and it's also true of the Hebrew of the Old Testament. So, on a slightly different bur very much related note, it seems quite strange that you would conveniently seem to "forget" this fact when (erroneously) agreeing with DavidB's Post 17 above. Enoch is absolutely right (and I have said the same thing), that Jesus, in John 8:58, is clearly assigning God's name, which He gave to Moses in Exodus 3:14, to Himself. “I AM” is a name describing God’s eternal, ever-existing being. In Revelation 1:8 and 22:13, Jesus (“the Lord God, the Almighty”) refers to Himself as “the Alpha and Omega, Who is and Who was and Who is to come.” Again, this is the breakdown of the meaning of “I AM” ~ ever-existing. The personal name of God, “YHVH” (or Jehovah), expresses the same eternal being of God. So, Jesus was indeed expressing His divinity by associating Himself with this name of God in Exodus 3:14. And again, John’s quoting Jesus here is fully in keeping with his overall purpose of emphasizing Jesus’ deity throughout his gospel.

There is not a single, clear and direct admission by either God Yahweh, or his son that they are equal parts of a "godhead" with the 'holy spirit'...

A man (or woman, in your case) sees what he wants to see, obviously. Yes, I'm well aware that you will try to turn that right back around to me, and I'll gracefully accept it; it is God, after all, Who makes the blind to see. At any rate, though, it's all through the various narratives of the Bible, beginning in Genesis 1: "In the beginning God..." (v.1), "the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters..." (v.2), "God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." (v.26). John 1 gives us further insight into exactly Who was there at the time of creation, saying, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... He was in the beginning with God... All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made" (vv.1-3). So, incontrovertibly, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were all present at creation. Creation was the will of the Father ("Let there be..."; Genesis 1:3, 6, 9, 11, 14, 20, 24, 26)), through the Son (John 1:3). And regarding the Spirit and His "hovering over the waters," the Hebrew for 'hovered' is 'rachaph' which is only used 3 times - Genesis 1:2; Jeremiah 23:9 and Deuteronomy 32:11 and indicates a high degree of care, even concern, in its action. This is very appropriate in Genesis 1:2 ~ the Holy Spirit, in His protective love, was "hovering" over the surface of the planet. So from the very beginning, we see ~ seeing is believing ~ each Person of the triune Jehovah in action (some of us, anyway... ).

If you can find one I'd like to see it.

Well, it's been right there in front of your face ~ despite the Watchtower organization's best efforts to conceal it ~ for... well, quite a while, I guess... Christ Himself is crystal clear in what He says of the Persons of the triune Jehovah in John 14:

"I (Jesus, God the Son) am the way, and the truth, and the life.

No one comes to the Father (God the Father) except through Me (Jesus, God the Son).

If you had known Me (Jesus, God the Son), you would have known My (Jesus's, God the Son's) Father (God the Father) also.

From now on you do know Him (God the Father) and have seen Him (God the Father)....

Whoever has seen Me (Jesus, God the Son) has seen the Father (God the Father).

I (Jesus, God the Son) am in the Father (God the Father) and the Father (God the Father) is in Me (Jesus, God the Son).

If you love Me (Jesus, God the Son), you will keep My (Jesus's, God the Son's) commandments.

I (Jesus, God the Son) will ask the Father (God the Father), and He (God the Father) will give you another Helper (God the Holy Spirit), to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth (God the Holy Spirit; and Jesus said just a couple of sentences earlier that He is the truth), Whom (God the Holy Spirit) the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him (God the Holy Spirit) nor knows Him (God the Holy Spirit).

You know Him (God the Holy Spirit), for He (God the Holy Spirit) dwells with you and will be in you.

If anyone loves Me (Jesus, God the Son), he will keep My (Jesus's, God the Son's) Word, and My (Jesus's, God the Son's) Father (God the Father) will love him, and We (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit together) will come to him and make Our (God the Father's, God the Son's, and God the Holy Spirit's, as one) home with him.

These things I (Jesus, God the Son) have spoken to you while I (Jesus, God the Son) am still with you... (b)ut the Helper (God the Holy Spirit), the Holy Spirit (God the Holy Spirit), Whom the Father (God the Father) will send in My (Jesus's, God the Son's) name, He (God the Holy Spirit) will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I (Jesus, God the Son) have said to you."​

And I'll just throw in, for good measure, Jesus's prayer to the Father in John 17 ~ and in particular verse 5 ~ Jesus's affirmation that He clearly possessed and possesses forever the same glory as the Father from eternity past to eternity future... and also Paul's clear affirmation that the Son and the Father were and are and always will be equal in Philippians 2 ~ the infinitive 'to be grasped' in Philippians 2:6 is equal to the infinitive 'to be used,' not 'to be had,' as if He was not in full possession of equality with the Father. Yes, I know the Watchtower's unfortunate and wrongheaded (heretical) spin on all these things, but it is what it is... they are what they are. At any rate, this is not nearly exhaustive regarding scriptural confirmations of it, but the triune nature of God ~ One in Three, Three in One ~ in spite of the best efforts of many, including the Watchtower, is irrefutable.

The Bible does not teach a trinity and never has.

Again and again, I hear the strains of Simon and Garfunkel (who were... not prophets... ) echoing through the years: "Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." (The Boxer, 1968)

Grace and peace to you, AJ.

 

[GEN2REV]

2 Peter 1:1 is often used to support the trinity.
“Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:”

Here is the problem.

Granville Sharp made a rule in 1798. Sharp's Rule says, in effect, that when two or more words (nouns) in the original Greek NT text are joined by the word "and," they all refer to the same person if the word "the" comes before the first noun and not before the other nouns.

Many respected NT experts and translators have rejected Sharp's Rule. For example: G. B. Winer; J. H. Moulton; C. F. D. Moule; Dr. James Moffatt (see Titus 2:13; and 1 Tim. 5:21); Dr. William Barclay (2 Thess. 1:12); and Roman Catholic scholar Karl Rahner (2 Peter 1:1).

Notice these translations of 2 Peter 1:1.
KJV - “through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"
ASV - "in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ"
RSV footnote - “of our God and the Savior Jesus Christ”
Weymouth - “through the righteousness of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ."
NWT “through the righteousness of our God and the Savior Jesus Christ”

The most frequently used “Sharp’s Rule” verse is Titus 2:13. These translations also reject the made up rule and do not support the trinity.
KJV - “of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Moffatt - "of the Glory of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus,"
NABRE - "of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ,"
NLV - "of our great God and the One Who saves, Christ Jesus."
RSV footnote - “of the great God and our Savior”
CJB - "of our great God and the appearing of our Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah."
GNV - "of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ."
Phillips - "of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour.
Coverdale - “of ye greate God and of oure Sauioure Iesu Christ.”
Wycliffe - “of the greet God, and of oure sauyour Jhesu Crist;”
Tyndale - “ye myghty god and of oure savioure Iesu Christ.”
Mace- “of the supreme God, and of our saviour Jesus Christ,”
Noyes - “of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ;”
Riverside - “of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus,”
NWT - "of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ,"

I actually noticed this very thing in my own study of the KJV.

I've never heard of Granville Sharp, but I agree with him from my own observations of scripture.

Nice list.