Hi Retro, Yeah, the picture came up well, except maybe it was too big. You couldn't see all the writing at once you had to scroll up, down and sideways and I don't think it allowed you to do that.
The Problem with Symbolism
- Thread starter Trekson
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Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Trekson.
Hmmm.... That's very interesting. For me, it comes up just about covering the whole screen when the forum window is in "full screen" mode. The file is just a little bigger than 453k. I'll have to work on adjusting things a little. What's your screen resolution, if you don't mind my asking? My notebook is at 1440 x 900 pixels (32-bit color).
I just want to be sure that anyone who wants to see the picture may see it easily ... and be able to read it! A picture is worth a thousand words, but I don't think computers quite have all the various ways down that a "picture" can be seen. However, since this thread is on the "problem with symbolism," pictures are less susceptible to the imagination than words are. Sometimes, they are a good way to explain one's view about why a text should not be taken symbolically.
Hmmm.... That's very interesting. For me, it comes up just about covering the whole screen when the forum window is in "full screen" mode. The file is just a little bigger than 453k. I'll have to work on adjusting things a little. What's your screen resolution, if you don't mind my asking? My notebook is at 1440 x 900 pixels (32-bit color).
I just want to be sure that anyone who wants to see the picture may see it easily ... and be able to read it! A picture is worth a thousand words, but I don't think computers quite have all the various ways down that a "picture" can be seen. However, since this thread is on the "problem with symbolism," pictures are less susceptible to the imagination than words are. Sometimes, they are a good way to explain one's view about why a text should not be taken symbolically.
Ofte times I have read or heard descriptions of prophecy expressed as transpiring over the entire earth, though the Bible does not say that, nor imply that. So each time I hear or read of someone's description that it happens over the entire world, I ask what would be the damage done if it took place over the entire earth and if that damage would be so catistrophic that it would impede other prophecies taking place then I conider that description invalid. Turning the waters to blood over the entire earth by the 2 witnesses...not valid. Stopping rain and drying everything up across the world by the 2 witneeses for the duration of their power...not valid. and so on.... And so... these locusts coming across the entire world... probably not valid also. And not necessary...
Associating the attack those locusts do with military arms is leaving the text there, since 3 times we are shown that it's what comes out of their 'mouths' is where their power is.
Proper interpretation will only come by keeping the flow of the chapter while not omitting any of the prophetic parameters given in it. Omit just one thing, like the power of those locusts being in their 'mouths', and it changes the whole prophecy.
Proper interpretation will only come by keeping the flow of the chapter while not omitting any of the prophetic parameters given in it. Omit just one thing, like the power of those locusts being in their 'mouths', and it changes the whole prophecy.
revturmoil
New Member
Your misunderstanding comes from your analogy of "the entire world" and the correct understanding of the word 'all'!
You all need 'hermeneutics 101'!
LOCUST DESCRIPTION:
Rev 9:7-9
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
(KJV)
LOCUSTS LOOSED:
Rev 9:17-19
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
(KJV)
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, veteran.
Sorry, but that is assuming too much. These are two different shofars - two different "air-raid sirens!" They are two different disasters! Let's look at the FULL text of chapter 9:
Revelation 8:13; 9:1-21
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
KJV
Revelation 9:1-12 are the FIRST "OOAHEE" (WOE)! Revelation 9:13-11:14 are the SECOND "OOAHEE" (WOE)! Notice carefully that the descriptions of these two (or three, making a difference between the horse and its rider) different creatures are VERY different! Actually, verse 12 is in between the two woes.
Be careful making assumptions; that's a good way to mess yourself up in your understanding of the prophecy.
Shalom, Trekson.
If you are using Windows Vista as an operating system, go to your desktop and right-mouse-click on the desktop itself. You should see a panel pop up with a line half way down that says, "Graphics properties." If you click on that selection, a window will pop up that will allow you to change your graphics properties. (Don't change them unless you know what you're doing.) Along the left side, you should see the words "Display Settings." If you click on that, you will be given information on your "Color Quality," "Screen Resolution," and "Refresh Rate." Once you've peeked at what you have, just press the "Cancel" button to get out of the window, and no harm done.
Sorry, but that is assuming too much. These are two different shofars - two different "air-raid sirens!" They are two different disasters! Let's look at the FULL text of chapter 9:
Revelation 8:13; 9:1-21
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
KJV
Revelation 9:1-12 are the FIRST "OOAHEE" (WOE)! Revelation 9:13-11:14 are the SECOND "OOAHEE" (WOE)! Notice carefully that the descriptions of these two (or three, making a difference between the horse and its rider) different creatures are VERY different! Actually, verse 12 is in between the two woes.
Be careful making assumptions; that's a good way to mess yourself up in your understanding of the prophecy.
Shalom, Trekson.
If you are using Windows Vista as an operating system, go to your desktop and right-mouse-click on the desktop itself. You should see a panel pop up with a line half way down that says, "Graphics properties." If you click on that selection, a window will pop up that will allow you to change your graphics properties. (Don't change them unless you know what you're doing.) Along the left side, you should see the words "Display Settings." If you click on that, you will be given information on your "Color Quality," "Screen Resolution," and "Refresh Rate." Once you've peeked at what you have, just press the "Cancel" button to get out of the window, and no harm done.
They are about the same locust army the Rev.9 chapter mentions from the start. And it's easy to prove.
Rev 9:4-5
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(KJV)
Rev 9:19
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
(KJV)
Both the same group of locusts.
Rev 9:12-13
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
(KJV)
The 5th trumpet is the 1st Woe period.
The 2nd Woe period begins with the 6th Trumpet.
And the final 3rd Woe period begins with what?
Rev 11:13-15
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
(KJV)
Doesn't take a lot of common sense to understand that 3rd final Woe is after the 2nd Woe period which is about what? The 2nd Woe period is about the events of tribulation, God's two witnesses prophesying for 1260 days, the Gentiles tredding the temple and Jerusalem for 42 months, the two witnesses being killed just 3.5 days prior to the coming of the 3rd final Woe.
The 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period is about the time of Christ's coming which is when the battle of Armageddon happens
So, are you all going to try and tell me Armageddon happens at that 2nd Woe back at Rev.9:12-13???
If that were true, then the event of the 7th trumpet - 3rd Woe should have been moved up to the 2nd Woe - 6th trumpet timing. Yet it isn't, not per the written Word of God. That is why it is certain, and sure, that those locusts of Rev.9 is NOT about a 200 million man military army coming upon Israel, for that 2nd Woe period is NOT the end yet. The Armageddon event of Rev.16 is about the time of Christ's coming on 7th Vial, which is the day of God's wrath upon the wicked, i.e., "the day of the Lord". And we know for sure per Paul in 1 Thess.5 and Peter in 2 Pet.3:10 that Christ comes "as a thief" on that "day of the Lord". On that "day of the Lord" is when the battle of Armageddon is revealed to occur, and Jesus is coming upon a white horse with His saints from Heaven in Rev.19 to show that also. The supper of The Great God of Rev.19 is about the battle of Armageddon.
Hi Vet, and thus we have the "problem with symbolism" which is what this topic is about. Imo, these are two different events with a different cast of characters. Yes, the bible says the locusts have tails like a scorpion but the horses have tails like serpents, not the same. Theses serpent tails have "heads", the scorpion tails have "stingers". Yes, there are some vague similarities, but the differences are what separates them.
The second woe does not begin with the sixth trumpet. The second woe is the destruction of Jerusalem by earthquake. The third woe is the seventh trump which contains the seven vials. I know we disagree but the judgments are sequential, not parallel and imo, truth won't be found until that is realized. The woes aren't "time periods" they are specific events.
The second woe does not begin with the sixth trumpet. The second woe is the destruction of Jerusalem by earthquake. The third woe is the seventh trump which contains the seven vials. I know we disagree but the judgments are sequential, not parallel and imo, truth won't be found until that is realized. The woes aren't "time periods" they are specific events.
I don't have a problem with symbolism in God's Word, you do.
The supper of the great God per Rev.19 is the same event of God's great sacrifice of Ezekiel 39:17-22. That's when Christ returns. The Hamongog event of Ezekiel 38 & 39 is the Armageddon event of Rev.16.
Trekson what computer do you have ? Apple or the other guys? If you have the orther guys i can show you how to find out the resolution accorsding to the operating system you have.
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