The Problem with Symbolism

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JosyWales

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I think you misunderstood me.

I am saying that Belshazzer and Darius DID exist which is what you are having to disagree with if you say that the Jews were let go in 538.

You are saying that Darius did not exist, not me. I am saying that Darius DID exist and that it was during 538 that the Lions Den incident occured, putting the date of the release of the Jews well past that, since Darius had to move on before Cyrus had his first year, which most people date at 535.

The bottom line here is that neither one of us can prove which date is correct, so I will side with the bible on this one and say it is true that 70 years happened in their fullness as the text (and most historians) indicates.
 

revturmoil

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This is what you said and how do you expect me to take this...

Now it is widely circulated that there was no such person as Darius the Mede, who Daniel said ruled as king after the Persian conquest of Babylon (which they have firmly dated to Oct 12, 539, which means it was nearly 538 then). Daniel tells us that it was during the first year of Darius that the event of the Lions Den happened.


Personally I am going to have a little faith in Daniel, that it is actually true.
A little faith??? And sorry I did misunderstand you a bit.

And if you like I can give you a dozen links to show the dates are 535 to 536 B.C.
http://www.jewishage...o Emergence.htm

http://dedication.ww...gs.com/457.html

http://www.patmospap.../daniel/457.htm

http://judaism.about...rslm_jews_2.htm

Here the JW'S changed the dates to your standards...and there's reasons for it!

http://onlytruegod.o...rs/537vs539.htm
 

veteran

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Hi Vet, Your words: A symbol is nothing more than figurative language. Look at the symbols on international signs. A tent looking shape used to mean shelter is near; today it's an international symbol for a camp area."

A symbol and "symbolism" are two different things in my opinion. Your example may be good for elementary students but implied scriptural symbolism goes to a whole other level. I'm of course speaking of folks who find symbolism in everything when the literal has the correct meaning within the context.

My example may be good for elementary students??? What kind of statement is that? Symbols are good enough for our LORD to use, but not for us? That's how you sound man!

Biblical symbolism is about 'symbols', nothing more difficult than that. The thing you're speaking of is simply those who treat the symbols God uses in His Word as a 'system of philosophy' apart from His Word. Their false system is mostly pagan based philosophy I might add. After all, isn't that the philosophy God's Word is most at battle against, i.e., paganism?

I really don't care what you think about my "elementary students" level of God's usage of symbols. You're attempt to make it harder than what it really is only reveals you think you're smarter than you really are. If you think for one minute that one must go deep into man's methods of religious symbolism, then your thinking is vain, of this world, and not in the simplicity that is in Christ. The symbols God uses in His Word are for that simplicity, even so a little child can understand.


Rev. 11:8 is of course speaking of Jerusalem because it identifies itself that way within the context. I mean who doesn't know where Christ was crucified?! The error of symbolism that stems from this is believing that any other time the word mentions "a great city", it is assumed to be Jerusalem, when the context plainly shows otherwise.

What "context plainly shows otherwise" proof do you speak of? That America is Babylon and that's all?

No, what you're following on the Revelation Babylon symbol are men's doctrines. And it's sad they've got you convinced of their made up lies to draw you away... from looking at Jerusalem for the last days. The barometer of the end times is... Jerusalem, just as it has been ever since He gave David to conquer it from the PAGAN Canaanites. Most likely, it's those Canaanites that have come up with that false doctrine that America is Babylon. Radical Islamic extremists certainly teach that and believe it!
 

Trekson

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Hi Vet, Your words: "I really don't care what you think about my "elementary students" level of God's usage of symbols. You're attempt to make it harder than what it really is only reveals you think you're smarter than you really are. If you think for one minute that one must go deep into man's methods of religious symbolism, then your thinking is vain, of this world, and not in the simplicity that is in Christ. The symbols God uses in His Word are for that simplicity, even so a little child can understand."

I beg to differ and I (as a friend, no hostility) challenge you to prove me wrong. A picture of a tent as a symbol can be understood by people of all nations and tongues (not scripturally speaking). Here's the challenge. Give me one symbol used in the bible that could be understood by an OT Israelite (without the need for hindsight, exs. of types wouldn't work) and a modern christian that ALWAYS has meant and does mean THE EXACT SAME THING.

Another challenge. Given all the real descriptions of Babylon in Rev. 18 (they're not symbolic) show me one area that can be undeniably Jerusalem.
 

JosyWales

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Kaoticprophet, I was saying that Daniel, Darius and Belshazzar DID exist and that the release of the Jews occured in 536-535. How you came to the conclusion that I said the opposite is rather, well, kaotic.

I am not sure how someone could read what I said and not understand that.

By the way, your first link says that they were released in 538 (which I disagree with) and the next two say 536 (which is what I agree with) so I am not sure what you are saying. It is almost like you are disagreeing with yourself.
 

veteran

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Hi Vet, Your words: "I really don't care what you think about my "elementary students" level of God's usage of symbols. You're attempt to make it harder than what it really is only reveals you think you're smarter than you really are. If you think for one minute that one must go deep into man's methods of religious symbolism, then your thinking is vain, of this world, and not in the simplicity that is in Christ. The symbols God uses in His Word are for that simplicity, even so a little child can understand."

I beg to differ and I (as a friend, no hostility) challenge you to prove me wrong. A picture of a tent as a symbol can be understood by people of all nations and tongues (not scripturally speaking). Here's the challenge. Give me one symbol used in the bible that could be understood by an OT Israelite (without the need for hindsight, exs. of types wouldn't work) and a modern christian that ALWAYS has meant and does mean THE EXACT SAME THING.

Another challenge. Given all the real descriptions of Babylon in Rev. 18 (they're not symbolic) show me one area that can be undeniably Jerusalem.

I'm not trying to be hostile either, I just can't believe someone on your level of Bible understanding could be duped into the America is Babylon lie, that's all.

You have to purposefully leave... the BIBLICAL meaning of many of the symbols given in Revelation to describe the endtime Babyon harlot as something else other than a specific city (revealed per the last verse of Rev.17). When you leave the Biblical foundation for those symbols, then you place yourself into men's doctrines to try and discover the meaning of those symbols. That's how it will lead you into a pagan application of those Scriptures, instead of how our Heavenly Father and His Son meant them.
 

Trekson

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Vet, I see you didn't answer my challenge, however, in the case of Revelations there is no denying symbolism is used occassionaly but usually the context explains itself. But by and large it must be read literally to get the proper understanding. Symbolism is a minefield of speculation just waiting to blow up in one's face.

No one has "duped" me. I came to the conclusion on my own. With the knowledge we have to date, America is the only nation that fits the description given in Rev. 18, identified in John's mind as a city/state, imo, NYC. Rome wasn't the only city in it's empire, Babylon wasn't the only city in it's empire but it is how they were known. Most of the world does it business thru NYC. DC may be the political city but in Rev. 18, it's the economic part that is in view.
 

veteran

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Vet, I see you didn't answer my challenge, however, in the case of Revelations there is no denying symbolism is used occassionaly but usually the context explains itself. But by and large it must be read literally to get the proper understanding. Symbolism is a minefield of speculation just waiting to blow up in one's face.

No one has "duped" me. I came to the conclusion on my own. With the knowledge we have to date, America is the only nation that fits the description given in Rev. 18, identified in John's mind as a city/state, imo, NYC. Rome wasn't the only city in it's empire, Babylon wasn't the only city in it's empire but it is how they were known. Most of the world does it business thru NYC. DC may be the political city but in Rev. 18, it's the economic part that is in view.

You're challenge is irrelevant, for it's easy to do that. How about sowing seed for an example? God's Word uses several agricultural terms that applied in OT times, and still apply today. It's likewise with our Lord's Revelation using symbols, the difference being 'what' He used them to represent. The scorpion is used as a symbol in Rev.9, as also the locusts, the lion, and in Rev.13 He uses the idea of 'beasts' to represent something else besides a literal animal.

Once again, the idea of symbolism in God's Word is ONLY a teaching tool, nothing more. And it's to make His Message easier to understand, not more difficult. And the way to properly interpret those symbols is that one MUST let His Word do the interpreting.


Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
(KJV)

The woman of Rev.17 is the Babylon harlot, the "great whore".

Rev 17:3-5
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
(KJV)

It's a 'city', not a nation, not America. You cannot just hap-hazardly modify that Rev.17:18 verse with trying to interpret the Babylon of Rev.18 as something totally different.
 

revturmoil

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Kaoticprophet, I was saying that Daniel, Darius and Belshazzar DID exist and that the release of the Jews occured in 536-535. How you came to the conclusion that I said the opposite is rather, well, kaotic.

I am not sure how someone could read what I said and not understand that.

By the way, your first link says that they were released in 538 (which I disagree with) and the next two say 536 (which is what I agree with) so I am not sure what you are saying. It is almost like you are disagreeing with yourself.

Sometimes I read things too fast and sorry I misunderstood you. My apologies.

I know that the dates are all over the place but none of them add up to 70 years. A host of people like Dr. David Jeremiah etc. all agree that 70 years didn't pass. He say's 67. He also say's "that's close enough!"

I disagree!
 

tgwprophet

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Symbolism.... I read Revelation Ch 9 several times trying to get a grip on it vivid enough to draw it. This is what I came up with.

That has a copywrite 1993... but anyone...like my entire works are free to use them...if they provide it to others freely.
 

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veteran

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Here's the way i cover Rev.9.


Rev 9:1-21
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.


Since this "star" that falls from heaven was given a key, and it's to the bottomless pit, what is literal and what is symbolic? The star has to be symbolic being associated with an entity with a key, simple enough. The bottomless pit is a reference to Satan's abode. Jesus said in Luke 10:18 He saw Satan as lightning fall from heaven. The "star" represents Satan, and he fell from heaven in times of old when he first rebelled against God.

This fifth angel is the 5th trumpet - 1st woe period.


2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Satan opens that pit, and smoke comes out of it. What's the smoke for? Mystery, deception, i.e., like smoke and mirrors, symbolically darkening the sun and the air. And notice the smoke is from that great furnace there in the pit, which is another symbolic reference for his abode. Notice it's not him that's being released at this point, but something else.


3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Do literal locusts come out of the pit of hell (hades sense), where Satan's abode is? No. These are symbolic locusts, not real locusts. God is using these locusts to represent Satan's workers released upon the earth in the last days, on the 5th Trumpet - 1st Woe timing. This is the first Woe upon the earth, so we should understand it as the first major attack, a spiritual attack. Because these locusts come up out of Satan's pit, some consider these locusts to represent a group of his angels coming to earth in the last days, as per Rev.12:7-9. I'll leave that for each one to ponder.

God is 'using' the idea of how real locusts in nature work upon the earth for their spiritual attack. Real locusts attack a crop in swarms, devouring everything in its path. These locusts have a direct association with God's prophecy given through His prophet Joel, for the end. In the Book of Joel, God reveals these locusts devour in 4 stages, what each previous stage misses, the next stage eats up, like completeness in devouring. But this devouring is spiritual though, as will be discovered later in this chapter. Famine is usually associated with real locusts devouring the crops. In Amos 8 God said the day will come when He will bring a famine in the land, but not one for lack of bread or water, but of hearing the Word of The LORD (i.e., understanding It). That idea should be kept in mind about these symbolic locusts.

God also attached the idea of scorpions with those symbolic locusts. So He's giving us more info on how else these locusts do their attack. Once again, consider how a real scorpion in nature works, and that's what He is pointing to. A real scorpion has no digestive system. It numbs its prey by stinging, and then vomits a fluid into the victim's mouth. The fluid acts as acid, turning the victim's insides, bones and all, to mush. Then the scorpion sucks it up leaving its victim like an empty shell. All that is being applied in the spiritual death sense about the locusts deceiving its victim.


4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

These locusts are commanded to not hurt any green thing on the earth. So they are not jet bombers, tanks, etc. So literal military war cannot be applied to this. They can ONLY hurt those men which do NOT have God's sealing. And those would be whom? The deceived, i.e., those under the famine, but not for bread and water, but for hearing the Word of The LORD. Thus Christ's elect are not subject to this stinging, period, for they are... sealed with God's seal, meaning they are not deceived by these locusts, nor under this spiritual famine ("...see thou hurt not the oil and the wine" - Rev.6:6).


5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

The locusts cannot kill their victims, but only sting them for a period of five months. The scorpion sting is a spiritual sting to cause deception upon their victims. Should be getting the idea here that these represent false prophets for the end.



6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

This is yet another pointer that these locusts are not coming to literally kill, but to work spiritually, the attack is to cause spiritual death to one's soul. Deception is what causes spiritual death, falling away from Christ to another instead.


7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

Now the locust shapes. Since these locusts so far are symbolic, this is going to help reveal what they literally represent. They were LIKE horses running to battle, and had as it were crowns LIKE gold on their heads, and they have the faces of men. They are men. And their crowns are LIKE real crowns of gold only, showing a type of fakeness. So Christ is giving us more symbols to consider their identity, while actually pointing to them being real men.


8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

Their hair like the hair of women? A woman's hair is her crown according to Paul. In this sense it's about their smoothness, soft manner or approach. But their effect in that is as a lion attaching its prey. A lion that has clamped down on its prey will not let go until its prey is dead. These are all more symbols for how these locusts spiritually attack the deceived un-sealed.


9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

Since the kind of attack shown above is a spiritual attack, and not one of literal military attack, what KIND of 'breastplate of iron' would that represent? The Hebrew priests wore breastplates with 12 jewels. These are posing as priests, preachers, etc., but actually are false prophets, antichrists. And the battle they run to is spiritual.



10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

Once again, their spiritual stinging was like how a scorpion works. And they were allowed to sting for five months. Our Lord Jesus is giving that as a repeat for emphasis, including that five months period.


11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

They have a leader over them, the angel of the bottomless pit. We know that cannot be some flesh man, but a heavenly being, the same one back at verse 1, Satan. The names Apollyon and Abaddon mean, 'the Destroyer'. Apollyomi is the Greek word for 'perish'. Satan and his angels only have already been judged and sentenced to perish in the future lake of fire. That's who their 'king' is here.

In Rev.11:1-13, that is still 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing. At Rev.11:7 we're shown the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will kill God's two witnesses. So that's showing this "king" (Satan) is released on earth for that period to do that. (understand, the 1st beast is a kingdom, and it does not ascend out of the bottomless pit. So the one of Rev.11:7 has to mean the "another beast" of Rev.13, the one speaking as a dragon, which is another title for Satan per Rev.12:9).


12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

Now comes the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, with one more Woe after that.


13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.


The 6th angel sounds (6th trumpet), and the four angels bound at the river Euphrates are loosed. The Euphrates river was the literal northern border between Israel and the pagan nations. Their loosing represents an ordained working crossing that symbolic border with these locusts, since these locusts come out of the bottomless pit.



15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

These four angels have been prepared to do this loosing at a certain hour, day, month, and year; in other words, at a specific appointed time which God has ordained. And the locust's slaying doesn't involve literal flesh killing remember, but that stinging for five months mentioned above.


16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

This is NOT some literal military army rushing to war on earth. The Armageddon event does not occur until Christ's coming which is later than these events. This is still about the locust army that stings like scorpions.


17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

Notice "jacinth" is mentioned about their breastplates. Jacinth was one of the precious jewels upon Aaron's priestly breatplate (Exo.28, as "ligure"). Notice where the fire and brimstone issues out of; i.e., their MOUTHS. Military armies don't destroy with their 'mouths', but with literal weapons. What does... come out of one's mouth? Words. That's what these attack with, so the slaying of a third part of men means what KIND of slaying? Spiritual slaying to cause deception.

Since our Lord Jesus and His Apostles forewarned us about a 'pseudo-Christ' coming in His place to be worshipped in Christ's place, that's the deception all this associates with for the end. Satan, as a "king" is who is involved in this, with his locusts preparing the field (world).


18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

Christ gives this point about what comes out of their 'mouths' doing the attacking for emphasis once again. So that killing is what KIND? Spiritual killing, to cause spiritual death in falling away (2 Thess.2:3-4).


19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

Now our Lord is giving us that pointer about what comes out of their 'mouths' yet another time! That's 3 times here for emphasis that this stinging is about false words by false prophets that serve Satan doing a spiritual killing to cause deception.


20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
(KJV)


Notice how these are 'contrasted' from those 1/3 in the previous verses. This latter group are clearly the wicked, idol worshippers, murderers, sorcerers, fornicators, thieves, etc., the truly wicked. So who are those mentioned previously that are the 1/3 that are stung? Since the stinging is spiritual to cause deception in falling away, the previous ones represent the deceived of God's people, spiritual harlots. They aren't these truly wicked, but they do become spiritual harlots for falling away to bow to the pseudo-Christ instead of waiting for our True Lord Jesus to return.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, terry.

LOL! With all due respect to veteran, allow me to present a quite opposite point of view:

Revelation 9:1-12
"Then the fifth messenger blasted (on his shofar) and I saw a heavenly body fall out of the sky down to the earth (meteorite): and to it was given the exact coordinates of the pit of the abyss.
"And it cracked open the pit of the abyss: There arose a cloud of smoke out of the pit as though it came from a huge furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened from the smoke of the pit.
"Then out of the smoke came locusts that landed on the earth: to them was given poison like the poison that the scorpions of the ground have. They were commanded that they should not hurt the grass on the ground nor any foliage nor any tree; they should hurt only those men who do not have the seal
of God on their foreheads. The command given to them was that they should not kill men, but that they inflict pain on them for five months: The pain they inflicted was like the poison of a scorpion when one of them strikes a person. During that time, these people shall consciously and purposely look for death but shall not find it; they shall wish to die, but death will elude them.
"The appearance of the locusts was such that they were armored for battle like horses prepared for war are all formidably dressed: on their heads were victor's-wreath-shaped antennae as though they were victors' wreaths of gold; their faces were like the faces of people; they had hairs on their body long like the hair of women, and their mandibles were like lions' teeth. They had thoraces as though they were made of iron, and the noise of their wings was like the noise from many horses and chariots running to the battlefield. (I.e., the loud, low-pitched buzz of a giant insect.) They had tails like those of scorpions with stings in their tails: their specialty was to torture people for five months. However, they had a king ruling them who is the messenger from the pit of the abyss whose name in the Hebrew language is Abaddown and in Greek is Apolluon (both meaning 'Destruction,' not ‘Destroyer’).
"One cry of grief is over, but, look out! There are two more coming!"

The above verses tend to indicate that these locusts are perhaps a residual, antediluvian species trapped in a state of suspended animation within an underground, unplumbed chamber (abussos) which will be opened by the impact of a certain meteorite upon the key pressure point of the earth's crust. While abussos means “[a pit with] no-bottom,” this could be either a pit with an unsounded bottom such as a deep fissure, or a pit deep enough that it’s “bottom” truly is past the core of the earth. Once a hole includes the center of gravity of the planet, all directions from there would be UP! I tend, though, to believe the former.

This species is primarily a form of locust, indicating that this species is a winged insect of the Orthoptera Order, Acrididae Family, possessing rear legs for leaping. That its sound is a low-pitched droning is indicative that this species is larger than present-day specimens, probably as “prehistoric,” or rather “antediluvian,” dragonflies and damselflies are larger than their living counterparts. They were not “prehistoric” or living “before recorded history”; they were “antediluvian”, living “prior to the Great Flood” of Noah’s time.

As many antediluvian creatures changed their diets after the flood becoming carnivorous, these creatures, too, will not be able to survive on the weakened vegetation of our planet. (Prior to the Great Flood, all animals were herbivorous.) Their diet will tend toward being carnivorous. As a starving, desperate species, they will attack human beings to acquire nourishment only to be frustrated. Finally, after five long months, the species will die from lack of nourishment: Since this species has a king, much as ants and bees have a queen, when the king dies, the others will die soon afterward. The name of their king, "Destruction," suggests both the results and the fate of this species, and has no correlation to haSatan.

A puzzling aspect of these verses is when people desire death only to have it elude them. The question used to come to my mind, "How is this accomplished? Does God actually suspend death for five months?" That would certainly be possible and within the ability of God, but then I was reminded that these creatures have the poison like the poison of scorpions. It occurred to me on January 3, 1993, to look up how the poison of scorpions affects someone. In the book Insects of the World, on page 11, J.E. Remington said, "However, there are a few species, especially in northern Mexico and northern Africa, that inject nerve poisons." (Emphasis mine.) The answer would then appear to be that of nerve dysfunction – people are literally immobilized! They are paralyzed by the venom and are thus unable to affect their own deaths or to ask others to kill them for mercy's sake. The toxin, however, is not life threatening... just extremely painful! All of one's nerve endings would feel like they were on fire! People will wish they were dead, but will be unable to do anything about it! Apparently, the toxin will wear off in time, but not before it’s taken its toll on the victim.

This is a "slightly" different point of view, but I hope you can see how that it matches what is written in the text, particularly in the Greek.
 

Trekson

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Well, my approach is a little different. I believe John is using descriptive language to try and describe something, in the best way he knew how as he had no clue as to what he was seeing. My opinion is the locusts represent helicopters or jet planes with aft shooting missiles and probably a long-haired pilot (woman with a helmet) as seen through the glass of the front of the helicopter or jet. The noise he hears can be understood to be the sound of a helicopter or a jet engine. There are plenty of chemical weapons that can cause severe distress without being fatal. The "teeth of a lion" can easily be explained by how many pilots paint the front of their planes, like sharks. John may have never seen a great white to compare, so a lion is the closest he could come to it. The "king" could easily be one of the evil men aligned with a/c or false prophet. Sometimes the simplest answers are the best, imo.

I wanted to add that we do have "stinger" missiles and seriously, if you were John how would you describe attack helicopters and jet fighters?
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Trekson.

Well, my approach is a little different. I believe John is using descriptive language to try and describe something, in the best way he knew how as he had no clue as to what he was seeing. My opinion is the locusts represent helicopters or jet planes with aft shooting missiles and probably a long-haired pilot (woman with a helmet) as seen through the glass of the front of the helicopter or jet. The noise he hears can be understood to be the sound of a helicopter or a jet engine. There are plenty of chemical weapons that can cause severe distress without being fatal. The "teeth of a lion" can easily be explained by how many pilots paint the front of their planes, like sharks. John may have never seen a great white to compare, so a lion is the closest he could come to it. The "king" could easily be one of the evil men aligned with a/c or false prophet. Sometimes the simplest answers are the best, imo.

I wanted to add that we do have "stinger" missiles and seriously, if you were John how would you describe attack helicopters and jet fighters?

The way that you have described these helicopters or jet engines is one of many possibilities WHEN one accedes to figurative representations in the description that Yochanan gave in the Revelation. However, they already had several different types of vehicles for hundreds of years when Yochanan was alive. They already knew about chariots, wagons, carts, covered wagons, and carriages for royalty. (The Romans had all of these.) If he could recognize these "contraptions" as vehicles, then it would be unlikely that he would liken then to animals or animal parts.

HOWEVER, I believe that Yochanan described EXACTLY what he saw. He never said that these were LIKE locusts even though he DID say that the teeth, for instance, were LIKE the teeth of lions. While the individual prophets/authors had the freedom to write with their own perspectives, I also believe that the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit), the REAL Author, would see to it that they wrote accurately, even if they didn't fully understand what they were writing about.

Just a thought you may want to consider.
 

tgwprophet

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I drew that picture of the locust with a man's face teeth of lions hair as woman and tail like a scorpoin to allow one to understand this creature will not exist in that form. However, in a different post I had said I do believe that prophets may have been given video clips... actual televised video clips and was asked to write what they saw. In this instance a Helecopter form the 60's vietnam war could easily be described here... or the act Saddam Hussein took immediately following the "agreement" after the 100 hour war. or a combination. See Saddam had sulphuric acid poured on the Kurds and the Rebels out of the backs of heliopters for several months. Helicopters was the only transport allowed by the agreement...or so I was told. I wonder... with the abilities of implant denistry is it possible to put lions teeth in a grasshopper or locusts and would they be able to achieve lift off ? lol
 

Trekson

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Hi Retro, Your words: "They already knew about chariots, wagons, carts, covered wagons, and carriages for royalty. (The Romans had all of these.) If he could recognize these "contraptions" as vehicles, then it would be unlikely that he would liken then to animals or animal parts."

That might be true of tanks and trucks, but wheel-less machines that fly is a whole other ball game, imo.

Your words: " He never said that these were LIKE locusts even though he DID say that the teeth, for instance, were LIKE the teeth of lions."

I think there is a whole lot of similies here...and hardly any "exactness"

Rev. 9:3-10 - "And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
[sup]4 [/sup]And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
[sup]5 [/sup]And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
[sup]6 [/sup]And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
[sup]7 [/sup]And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
[sup]8 [/sup]And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
[sup]9 [/sup]And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
[sup]10 [/sup]And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months."
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Trekson.

Yes, there are quite a few comparisons being made - a few similes; on the other hand, I can still see the creatures being literal locusts. Did you know, for instance, that the "breastplate" is the Greek word "thorax?" Coincidence? I don't think so.

I usually only deal with text, but I will try to upload a picture I drew several years ago. Hope this works...

View attachment 101
 

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  • locust.gif
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Trekson

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Hi Retro, No, I didn't know that, very interesting. I guess time will tell. Maybe I should get some more shotgun shells :ph34r:
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Trekson.

Hi Retro, No, I didn't know that, very interesting. I guess time will tell. Maybe I should get some more shotgun shells :ph34r:

Were you able to see the picture I uploaded? Could you blow it up and see what was written below? I'd just like to get a little feedback to hear that what I tried worked. (I do so little of it, that I can't remember the last time I uploaded a picture. I can't even remember if it was on this forum or on some other forum! :wacko: :rolleyes: