The Problem with Symbolism

[Trekson]

The definition of “symbolism” is “the practice of representing things by means of symbols or of attributing symbolic meanings or significance to objects, events or relationships.”

In my opinion, those who interpret scripture, especially prophetic scriptures utilizing symbolism are way off track. They would get more meaning in their search for truth using a “magic 8-ball”. There is no denying that scripture uses symbolism occasionally but usually it defines it within the context. Ex. Rev.17:3 - “So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

Symbolism explained: Rev. 17:9 - “…The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.”

Rev. 17:12 - “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings…”

Rev. 17:18 - “And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

The problem with using symbolism is the possibilities are endless. Trying to find real truth using symbolism is like chasing unicorns and leprechauns. You might get lucky but I wouldn’t bet my life on it, which some of these people do.

To me there is only one logical way to discern the bible. I like this “Golden Rule of Interpreting Bible Prophecy” - “When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, but take every word at its primary, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context clearly indicate otherwise.”

(I found this on the internet several years ago and do not know who to give credit to. It is not original to me)

Symbolism also makes up its own rules like: a word once used symbolically must always be considered in it’s symbolic sense when used again. SDA’s do this with their “year for a day principle” which isn’t a “principle” at all. Usually, if such a symbolic time line is given, the scriptures say so within the context, and should only be considered within that context, not applied to every other prophetic timeline given.

 

[Pelaides]

I have met some people who think the entire bible was meant to be read symbolicaly,I personally dont agree with this,I feel you must read the bible literaly before you attempt to interpret it symbolically.

 

[aspen]

language is symbolism, folks.

 

[JosyWales]

Trekson, what you are describing is Occam's Razor. It is a principle urging one to select from among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions. In simple terms it means: The simplest explanation is usually the right one.

Many interpreters of the Bible have left this principle in pursuit of making the Bible fit their own personal interpretations, which is a common reason that there are so many people with so many different teachings. This is not to say that in some cases, Occum's Razor does not apply, since the Bible can easily be speaking of two similar but different events at the same time. This means there is both a simple explaination and a more complex one simultainiously. A good example is the 70 year prophecy of Jeremiah (that happened and was recorded by many) being transformed into the 70 week prophecy of Daniel (as he was praying about the 70 year prophecy) that is yet to come.

The fact of the matter is that some of the Bible is literal, some it symbolic and some is both at the same time. God deliberately had it written this way for a number of reasons. This is why only those who have recieved the Baptism of the Holy Ghost can understand it and why they need no others to explain it to them.

It its own way, it is the perfect form in which God can speak to and teach His own in plain sight of Satan, and neither Satan, nor any of his own, will ever understand it

 

[Trekson]

Josy, I'm not sure what you're saying here: "A good example is the 70 year prophecy of Jeremiah (that happened and was recorded by many) being transformed into the 70 week prophecy of Daniel (as he was praying about the 70 year prophecy) that is yet to come."

These are two completely separate events unless you're looking at them "symbolically", which would just prove my point.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Cunning as a wolf
Meek as a lamb
Soft as a kitten
Roar like a Lion
Hot as Hell
Work like a slave
Sing like an angel
Drive like a maniac.
Lazy as a bum.

Symbolic language is timeless and universal and we understand the meaning easily. This is beneficial and the bible uses many similar allegories .

What is much more difficult is the prophecies which appear to be symbolic sometimes and literal other times. How do we know which is which ... Trekson pointed out some good examples where symbolism is used in revelation .... then later it is explained .... such as ....

Rev. 17:18 - “And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

But it still leaves us wondering why it is described as a woman ..... it also does not tell us explicitly who the city is ..... and leaves us wondering who the ten kings are.

In other words one question has been answered but now we have three more. So now we all speculate on the meaning and 100 of us will have at least 75 different opinions. .... And amongst us will be at least one person who claims to have it nailed down exactly. We humans are like that.

My best guess is that these clues in prophecy cannot be understood fully until the time draws near and we can see the pieces fall completely into place.

God has a history we should remember ...... Here is an example we are all familiar with .... . In the days of Noah God warned that he was going to bring rain upon the earth and Noah was to build the ark. ...... Sounds pretty simple to us right ?

However , the way I understand it ..... it had never rained on earth before that .... so the prophecy would appear symbolic and wacko until the actual rain started ..... only then did the prophecy make sense ..... think about it.

Just some random thoughts that come to mind. I do not have the answers either.

Revelation can be the most difficult . Remember the author is seeing what is going on in heaven .... but also it seems to have cause and effect here on earth ... and how do we put the two together. ? Is the beast (Babylon) in heaven (other realms) .... and being prepared to come down here to deceive the inhabitants of earth ? Pure speculation on my part .... but we are clearly told of the New Jerusalem city in heaven which comes to earth at a later date. Does Satan have his own (counterfeit) city in the works ? (Babylon etc.)

Daniel also alluded to a scroll which is sealed until the time of the end .... and he also said ....."many will go to and fro and knowledge will increase ... " .... some scholars feel that our modern world travel and our (recent) huge increase in knowledge may "unlock the secrets"

Or what if we discover a sealed scroll that meets the cannon of scripture and has been buried in a cave for 3000 years ?

When I ponder these things I want to be symbolic and say .... "Oh Lord , my head hurts" ....

 

[Trekson]

Hi Arnie, (and Aspen) Pardon me for saying so, but the examples you gave are not symbolic language. Symbolism cannot be simply defined as "descriptive" language. There are many words like: typology, similies, metaphors, adjectives, allegories, figurative, literal and symbolic that may seem the same but they all have aspects or nuances that separate themselves from each other to one degree or another, imo.

 

[JosyWales]

Hello Trekson.

I know that few pay attention to the relationship of the 70 years of Jeremiah and the 70 weeks of Daniel. This is both a shame and an example of an event being done physically yet relating symbolically to another event, which then can be looked on as prophecy.

There is a direct match between these two events. This is shown by the fact that Daniel was praying about the 70 years and God answered him with an explaination of the 70 weeks. If there was no direct connection between these two events, then God would not have been answering Daniels prayer.

This is sort of like God killing two birds with one stone.

Daniel had just gone through an experiience that he really didn't understand. All he knew really was that, according to the prophecy of Jeremiah, it should be about over. But, because of the great love God had for Daniel and Gods knowing that Daniel was the sort of fellow that had to understand the meaning behind things, God decided to give Daniel, not only the answer to his prayer (which was "is this about over like you told Jeremiah it would be?"), but also the meaning behind what was going on.

The best way to do this was to make Daniel understand that the event that he had just experienced was a direct match with an event that was to happen later, which was much easier to explain mainly because it would happen in a much more concentrated form.

In other words, God made Daniel understand his own event (the Babylonian Captivity) by showing him a similar future event that made it easy to understand what was going on.

The result is God telling Daniel that the events of the Great Captivity, which happened in the time of Daniel, was going to happen again in the future.only worse. What this means is that the physical events that happened during the time of Daniel were also symbolic of events that would happen during the time of the Apocalypse. Why this is important to us is that if you are faced with an interpretaton of the Apocalypse that does not conform to this earlier model, you are being led astray.

Unfortunately, that is pretty much all of them that are being presented today. This is why you do not see this rather obvious connection, because nothing the Bible interpreters of today are telling you in any way relates to the Seventy Years Captivity. They are making it into something competely different, to the point that the whole thing is completely hidden to you.

This was done on purpose, becuase the enemy cannot allow you to understand, because, if you do, you might actually be a threat. What better way than to make sure that you dont see than to muck up the works to the point that you dont see this straightforward connection.

To make what I am saying clear, the physical events of the Seventy Year Tribulation that Daniel and his fellows endured are, in themselves, symbolic of events that will take place during the Apocalypse, or perhaps saying that they are a concrete pattern would be better.

It is in this way that the events of much of this time period are to be looked at as both literal and symbolic, literal because they have happened and symbolic because they are representative of what is going to happen.

A great example of this is the Two Staff prophecy that I go on about sometimes. The fact that some physical event regarding them occured with Zechariah in the 11th chapter is true, however, Matthew in 27:9 tells you that this event was also a prophecy of Jesus that was fulfilled during Matthews time. It was a physical event that happened in the past that was symbolic of a future event that happened later.

It was both literal and symbolic at the same time.

People who only see one side or the other, that is to say they only see either the literal or they only see the symbolic in these writings, are only getting half the picture at best. It is no wonder that confusion reigns in these matter.

 

[revturmoil]

THE FOLLOWING IS ANOTHER ISSUE THAT KYLE WILLIAMS HAS USED TO SAY DANIEL IS A FALSE PROPHET AND TO DEBUNK THE BIBLE.

Nebuchadnezzar ascended to the throne of Babylon on the death of his father Nabopolassor in September 605. Daniel, and others were taken captive by Nebuchadnezzar in the same year (2 Kings 24:1).

Cyrus the Great gave Jews permission to return to their homeland in 538 BCE and more than 40,000 are said to have returned, as noted in the Biblical accounts of Jehoiakim, Ezra, and Nehemiah.

Do the math...

605
538
67
And the whole land shall be a desolation and an astonishment, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Then it will come to pass, when seventy years are completed, that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity,' says the Lord; 'and I will make it a perpetual desolation. (Jeremiah 25:12,13).

Kyle William's has found this discrepancy. The historical record (which some have changed to fit this prophecy) clearly shows a 66-67 year Jewish servitude. But God said it would be 70 years! So Kyle William's say's that the book of Daniel is false and that he's a false prophet and therefore the bible is debunked. The truth is that the 70 years are not yet accomplished!

There are three 70 year prophecies.

The 70 year destruction of the temple.

The 70 year captivity of the Jews by Nebuchadnezzar.

The 70 year Jewish "servitude" to Nebuchadnezzar.
Most 'prophecy experts' agree that there are 3 1/2 years of unfulfilled prophecy in the "servitude". (captivity)

Some say that 66 1/2 years is close enough to fulfill the prophecy. Since when does God approximate? The prophecy is not yet completely fulfilled. The Islamic/Assyrian antichrist, the king of Babylon, will come and complete the remaining 3 1/2 years of Nebuchadnezzar's 70 year prophecy. I say that it's Saddam who believes...

1. That he is the "reincarnation of Nebuchadnezzar."

2. That he is the "god of rebirth and resurection."

On the day Saddam was captured, Time Magazine had all of it's articles written about another man. But since Saddam's capture was so significant, they removed ths other man's picture from the cover and removed all the articles about him from the magazine and put Saddam's face on the cover. The original articles that were removed and the picture of the man Time removed from the cover was JESUS CHRIST!
Other things to consider.

The colors of the flag of almost all Arab nations are the same four colors of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse!
The empire that Saddam emulated most was the Assyrian Empire... and Saddam qualifies as an Assyrian and a "deadly wounded" one at that!

Nebuchadnezzar had his name inscribed on every brick of some temples and so did Saddam in honor of his greatness. Saddam idolized Nebuchadnezzar.

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:"

Is it too strange to consider that the scripture above could refer to the return of an evil despot like Nebuchadnezzar into Saddam Hussein? If Saddam returns (we didn't get the right Saddam) as the one who unites Islam and the Arab world into a ten nation Islamic empire, the world will wonder after the beast.

 

[aspen]

Hi Arnie, (and Aspen) Pardon me for saying so, but the examples you gave are not symbolic language. Symbolism cannot be simply defined as "descriptive" language. There are many words like: typology, similies, metaphors, adjectives, allegories, figurative, literal and symbolic that may seem the same but they all have aspects or nuances that separate themselves from each other to one degree or another, imo.

Sorry Trekson,

Language itself is comprised of symbols - verbal and written symbols that represent shared ideas. This is the biggest problem with literalist's attempts to make the Bible have only one meaning. Language can never provide exact meaning because it's very nature is symbolic.

 

[Trekson]

Kaotic, the so-called discrepancies can be easily explained but once I saw your view on saddam, i'm not even going to bother.

 

[veteran]

The definition of “symbolism” is “the practice of representing things by means of symbols or of attributing symbolic meanings or significance to objects, events or relationships.”

In my opinion, those who interpret scripture, especially prophetic scriptures utilizing symbolism are way off track. They would get more meaning in their search for truth using a “magic 8-ball”. There is no denying that scripture uses symbolism occasionally but usually it defines it within the context. Ex. Rev.17:3 - “So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

Symbolism explained: Rev. 17:9 - “…The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.”

Rev. 17:12 - “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings…”

Rev. 17:18 - “And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

The problem with using symbolism is the possibilities are endless. Trying to find real truth using symbolism is like chasing unicorns and leprechauns. You might get lucky but I wouldn’t bet my life on it, which some of these people do.

To me there is only one logical way to discern the bible. I like this “Golden Rule of Interpreting Bible Prophecy” - “When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, but take every word at its primary, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context clearly indicate otherwise.”

(I found this on the internet several years ago and do not know who to give credit to. It is not original to me)

Symbolism also makes up its own rules like: a word once used symbolically must always be considered in it’s symbolic sense when used again. SDA’s do this with their “year for a day principle” which isn’t a “principle” at all. Usually, if such a symbolic time line is given, the scriptures say so within the context, and should only be considered within that context, not applied to every other prophetic timeline given.

You're explanation started off good, then it kind of fell apart.

A symbol is nothing more than figurative language. Look at the symbols on international signs. A tent looking shape used to mean shelter is near; today it's an international symbol for a camp area.

All peoples have symbols in their culture, so it shouldn't be any big mystery that our Heavenly Father also used them in His Word. It's because symbols escape the limitations of the languages. Anyone who knows the international symbol for a campsite doesn't have to know a foreign language to read it. So symbols are a way to do a bit of universal communication.

How God's Word uses them is to impart a lot of information that would take a lot more space to explain. Thus symbolism in God's Word always... has a literal meaning behind it.


Rev 11:8
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
(KJV)

What is it when that "great city" is being "spiritually" called by other names like Sodom and Egypt? It's Biblical symbolism. It's being compared... to the cities of Sodom and the country of Egypt involving their pagan false idol worship history. God doesn't leave us hanging with that though, for He then reveals what "great city" He's using those Sodom and Egypt symbols upon; it's Jerusalem, where our Lord Jesus was crucified.

I don't understand why some want to make that so difficult to understand; except it being that they're not listening to the simplicty that is in Christ Jesus, but to other things. Some will flat argue... against that Scripture as pointing to Jerusalem.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Vet, Your words: A symbol is nothing more than figurative language. Look at the symbols on international signs. A tent looking shape used to mean shelter is near; today it's an international symbol for a camp area."

A symbol and "symbolism" are two different things in my opinion. Your example may be good for elementary students but implied scriptural symbolism goes to a whole other level. I'm of course speaking of folks who find symbolism in everything when the literal has the correct meaning within the context.

Rev. 11:8 is of course speaking of Jerusalem because it identifies itself that way within the context. I mean who doesn't know where Christ was crucified?! The error of symbolism that stems from this is believing that any other time the word mentions "a great city", it is assumed to be Jerusalem, when the context plainly shows otherwise.

 

[revturmoil]

Kaotic, the so-called discrepancies can be easily explained but once I saw your view on saddam, i'm not even going to bother.

Well explain the discrepancies and I'll prove you wrong once again!!

I see your views and I bother! I'm just showing you some facts about him and the discrepancy of 3 1/2 years that have not been fulfilled. Like I said. Atheist Kyle Williams has caught onto the things in the book of Daniel and used them to call him a false prophet and to debunk th bible. The historical record does show a 3 1/2 year discrepancy and lots of people know it's true. But the experts would like you to believe that 66 1/2 years is close enough to fulfill a 70 year prophecy. God does not approximate! Some people have actually changed the dates of the servitude believing there is a mistake in the historical record knowing God cannot be wrong.

Nebuchadnezzar's "yoke of iron" is also said to end 'AFTER" Jacob's Trouble i.e. the tribulation. So put it together...

Isaiah say's the ac is an Assyrian and he is also called the king of Babylon. Nebu and Saddam are/were Assyrian's and kings of Babylon. Nebu's yoke of iron is said to end after Jacob's trouble. Saddam could return with the spirit of Nebuchadnezzar...Saddam believed he was the god of re-birth and resurrection and the re-incarnation of Nebuchadnezzar. Saddam has suffered a literal deadly head wound as his head was nealy dismembered from his body. There were 4-5 Saddam's. There are 3 1/2 years of prophecy still unfulfilled by Nebuchadnezzar. Jesus was removed from the cover of Time (and so were the articles) magazine and replaced with Saddam's when he was captured.

 

[Trekson]

I'll debate this with you if you don't go off into lengthy unrelated tangents. Let's just start simply. Give me the scriptural prophecies, chapter and verse that foretold the 70 year "captivity" that you are proclaiming wasn't fulfilled properly.

 

[revturmoil]

I'm refering to the servitude. But anyway...do the math!


605 or 606
538 or 539 or 537
67
Depending what dates they look at and who does the math the numbers range from 66 to 69 years.

I say it's 66 1/2.

If you want to debate this that's fine with me.

Timeline of Habakkuk​

BC
722: Northern Kingdom of Israel (10 tribes) falls & is exiled to Assyria
627: Jeremiah begins his prophetic ministry
621: Rediscovery of Book of Law which had been lost in House of God! Josiah's reformation (but not lasting revival)

612: Fall of Nineveh, capital of Assyria

609: Death of godly King Josiah

607: Habakkuk begins his prophetic ministry

605: Nebuchadnezzar defeats Pharaoh Necho of Egypt at Battle of Carchemish = "the turning point of world history"

605: First invasion of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar King of Babylon; Daniel taken captive
597: Second invasion of Judah by Babylon; Ezekiel and 10,000 taken captive
592: Ezekiel begins his prophetic ministry to Babylonian exiles
586: Fall of Jerusalem, Destruction of Temple
538: Exiles return from Babylon to Judah (relatively small number return)

 

[Trekson]

If you're coming from Jer. 25:11 than the servitude began when Babylon defeated Assyria and took over the area of Jerusalem in 609 BC. They completed their take over in 605 BC when they defeated the remnants of the Egyptian forces at their southern front. At that time, the first of the captives went to Babylon which included Daniel. There were two other, "captive" events over the next 20 yrs. or so. From the defeat of Assyria in 609BC to the victory of Cyrus in 539BC equals 70 yrs.

 

[revturmoil]

BC
722: Northern Kingdom of Israel (10 tribes) falls & is exiled to Assyria
627: Jeremiah begins his prophetic ministry
621: Rediscovery of Book of Law which had been lost in House of God! Josiah's reformation (but not lasting revival)

612: Fall of Nineveh, capital of Assyria

609: Death of godly King Josiah

607: Habakkuk begins his prophetic ministry

605: Nebuchadnezzar defeats Pharaoh Necho of Egypt at Battle of Carchemish = "the turning point of world history"

605: First invasion of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar King of Babylon; Daniel taken captive
597: Second invasion of Judah by Babylon; Ezekiel and 10,000 taken captive
592: Ezekiel begins his prophetic ministry to Babylonian exiles
586: Fall of Jerusalem, Destruction of Temple
538: Exiles return from Babylon to Judah (relatively small number return)

If you're coming from Jer. 25:11 than the servitude began when Babylon defeated Assyria and took over the area of Jerusalem in 609 BC. They completed their take over in 605 BC when they defeated the remnants of the Egyptian forces at their southern front. At that time, the first of the captives went to Babylon which included Daniel. There were two other, "captive" events over the next 20 yrs. or so. From the defeat of Assyria in 609BC to the victory of Cyrus in 539BC equals 70 yrs.

Jerusalem was not taken over in 609. It was taken over in 606-605 B.C.

Habukkuk says in verse 6 that God would

raise up the Chaldeans (neo-Babylonians) to judge Judah. The prophecy of Habukkuk only SEEMS to precede this event as the dates are so close. Habukkuk dates are 626 to 605 B.C. Some people say between 610 and 605 B.C. So if the prophecy was intended for his time it came to pass shortly after the prophecy was given. It would be unlikely for Habukkuk to prophesy about the Chaldeans when he knew they were coming anyway. Most commentators say the prophecy in Hab.1 is both past and future because it's not a sealed prophecy. One thing for sure chapters 1-3 are future! Habukkuk spoke of an age beyond his own....an appointed time....at the end!


C. Therefore, it may be best to date the book of Habakkuk anywhere from the rise of neo-Babylonia (through Nabopolassar) over Assyria in 626 B.C. to the battle of Carchemish in 605 B.C.

H.L. Rossier said,

Judgment Over the Oppressor, Habakkuk 2.

Habakkuk 2:2 　And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.

3 　For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

God says,"Record the vision." Write it down. Why? So that whoever reads it can run and tell others. This describes the work of a herald. This is very applicable to us, because the remainder of the vision is about the judgment of God and the establishment of His kingdom. We too are to act as heralds, heralds of the gospel.

For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay; 38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."

[sup]The man is sin is also said the be the one to bring the final judgment upon Israel.[/sup]
[sup]Habakkuk 1:6 announces the Lord’s intent to raise up the Chaldeans (neo-Babylonians) to judge Judah; this would have begun with Babylon’s defeat of Egypt and Assyria at Carchemish in 605 B.C. and its subsequent entrance into Palestine (cf. [/sup]
[sup]Dan 1:1-2). The prophecy of Habakkuk seems to precede this event[/sup][sup].[/sup]
[sup]Habakkuk seems to assume that the Babylonians have already established a reputation by the time of his writing (cf. 1:6-11, 15-17; 2:5-17); this would have occurred after the battle of Carchemish; this may support a date of 605 for the writing of Habakkuk
Commenting on this possibility Chisholm writes, "However, if Habakkuk prophesied while the Babylonians were actually marching toward Judah, one wonders why the announcement of Judah’s downfall at their hands would have been so unbelievable to his audience (1:5). Also, could the Babylonians have developed the reputation described in chapters 1--2 in such a short period of time? Perhaps the description of Babylonian imperialism is largely proleptic, anticipating, on the basis of tendencies already revealed, how the Chaldeans would treat others as they further expanded their empire. One should note that the series of woe oracles in 2:6-20, which include the most specific references to Babylonian imperialism in the book, are delivered primarily from the perspective of Babylon’s future demise ...."[/sup]

 

[JosyWales]

I have to disagree with that "Cyrus let the Jews go in 538" stuff. While it is all a bit hard to prove, it was most likely that this event occured in 535 which would put this whole thing right on schedule.

Now it is widely circulated that there was no such person as Darius the Mede, who Daniel said ruled as king after the Persian conquest of Babylon (which they have firmly dated to Oct 12, 539, which means it was nearly 538 then). Daniel tells us that it was during the first year of Darius that the event of the Lions Den happened.

Personally I am going to have a little faith in Daniel, that it is actually true.

I do this because for the longest time, people tried to say there was no Belshazzar, for the same reason as they say there was no Darius, i.e. there was no appearant written record of his existance. In Belshazzars case, this all changed in the early 1990's when a single Cunniform Tablet was unearthed (a simple supply list) that had Belshazzars name on it authorizing its implementation. This single small discovery changed the whole thing by proving that indeed Belshazzar did exist and was in some type of position of authority. This actually supports the part in Daniel when Belshazzar offered Daniel the "Third Rule" in the kingdom for answering the writing on the wall. It was because Belshazzar, tho a king, was not the head king. In other words, as Daniel states, Belshazzar was 'King of the Chaldeans" which made him the second ruler of the kingdom behind the actual reigning "King of Babylon" who was a guy named Nabonidus.

I feel confident that Darius did exist and, like Belshazzar, the records have not been found yet.

This means that it was well after 538 that Cyrus came on the scene to do the Jewish deliverance and 535 sounds right.

I will point out that this is one of the main reasons I try look suspiciously at people when they try to tie certain prophesies to exact dates, because most of these dates are simply assumptions and are often proved wrong with new discoveries.

 

[revturmoil]

I have to disagree with that "Cyrus let the Jews go in 538" stuff. While it is all a bit hard to prove, it was most likely that this event occured in 535 which would put this whole thing right on schedule.

Now it is widely circulated that there was no such person as Darius the Mede, who Daniel said ruled as king after the Persian conquest of Babylon (which they have firmly dated to Oct 12, 539, which means it was nearly 538 then). Daniel tells us that it was during the first year of Darius that the event of the Lions Den happened.

Personally I am going to have a little faith in Daniel, that it is actually true.

I do this because for the longest time, people tried to say there was no Belshazzar, for the same reason as they say there was no Darius, i.e. there was no appearant written record of his existance. In Belshazzars case, this all changed in the early 1990's when a single Cunniform Tablet was unearthed (a simple supply list) that had Belshazzars name on it authorizing its implementation. This single small discovery changed the whole thing by proving that indeed Belshazzar did exist and was in some type of position of authority. This actually supports the part in Daniel when Belshazzar offered Daniel the "Third Rule" in the kingdom for answering the writing on the wall. It was because Belshazzar, tho a king, was not the head king. In other words, as Daniel states, Belshazzar was 'King of the Chaldeans" which made him the second ruler of the kingdom behind the actual reigning "King of Babylon" who was a guy named Nabonidus.

I feel confident that Darius did exist and, like Belshazzar, the records have not been found yet.

This means that it was well after 538 that Cyrus came on the scene to do the Jewish deliverance and 535 sounds right.

I will point out that this is one of the main reasons I try look suspiciously at people when they try to tie certain prophesies to exact dates, because most of these dates are simply assumptions and are often proved wrong with new discoveries.

I don't want to argue with someone who can't admit Darius or Belshazzar ever existed. Evidently you don't believe in the inspired Word of God since you side with the secularist.

One author said,...
In 539 BC, 48 years after Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem, the Babylonian empire was itself conquered by King Cyrus of Persia (from the ancient province of Persis; modern Fars, Iran).

That's actually incorrect. Darius the Mede conquered Babylon!

In accordance with his tolerant policy towards the many people who made up his empire, he issued the Edict of Restoration permitting individual groups of Jews* to return to the Jerusalem they never forgot. The book of Ezra describes the proclamation:
"In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfil the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah, the Lord moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing: This is what Cyrus king of Persia says: 'The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Anyone of his people among you—may his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the temple of the Lord, the God of Israel, the God who is in Jerusalem.'"

You are in serious denial to believe that Darius didn't exist or conquer Babylon!

Daniel 5:31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old.

It was Darius who appointed several presidents and princes. NOT CYRUS!

You deny bible history and accept fallible secular history!

Daniel 6:1 ??¶It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom; (Babylon)
2 ??And over these three presidents; of whom Daniel was first: that the princes might give accounts unto them, and the king should have no damage.

It was Darius who was made king over the realm of Babylon. NOT CYRUS!

Daniel 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

Daniel was about 84 years old when he wrote Daniel 10. It was after the Median invasion of Babylon, after the prophecy of the 70 weeks, after the first group of Ezra's exiles which Daniel did not return with, and after Darius had reigned for 2-4 years. That's the 'inferior kingdom' of Daniel 2.

Daniel did not go back with Ezra’s group of exiles because he was about 84 years old at that time. Daniel could serve the exiles better from his high position in government than he could with them in Jerusalem.