The Problem With The Trinity

[gadar perets]

yes. The whole law is the whole duty of man. We are to fear the Lord and keep His commandments. But God is also merciful. So if we are humble and don't judge others....God can have mercy on us...even though we don't do so well.

You can't even admit when you quote a verse wrong?

 

[gadar perets]

Yes,,,but one must understand the scale of that. We are to bear a holy fruit....perfect as God is perfect.

I agree, but that is not what abiding in Messiah means.

 

[gadar perets]

You get lost in the details if you can't see the big picture.

Imagine settling down on a piece of land...building a house and planting a garden. Then, other people come and say that you are on their land. When you check their claim...they are right. You did everything wonderfully...but for someone else. You were careful in your settling the land...but were not clear on the location of your claim.

So we can strain out gnats (sort out the details)....and swallow camels.(miss the big picture)

We already know the big picture and we know what the treasure is. We now need to follow the details.

 

[Episkopos]

You can't even admit when you quote a verse wrong?

Straining out gnats again?

 

[Episkopos]

We already know the big picture and we know what the treasure is. We now need to follow the details.

Really?

 

[Episkopos]

I agree, but that is not what abiding in Messiah means.

Not to bear holy fruit? You have a superior detail?

 

[gadar perets]

Not to bear holy fruit? You have a superior detail?

Bearing fruit is the result of being connected to Messiah (abiding in him). Break the connection by renouncing him, for example, and you cannot bear fruit. The superior detail is to stay connected to the vine.

 

[Episkopos]

Bearing fruit is the result of being connected to Messiah (abiding in him). Break the connection by renouncing him, for example, and you cannot bear fruit. The superior detail is to stay connected to the vine.

This is not abiding in Him....to not renounce? It is as I thought. You see abiding as holding a certain doctrinal stance....not a walk in a supernatural way.

So the scale is too small.

This is very common nowadays. People think abiding means going at it in one's own effort....while staying true to one's beliefs.

That's not abiding. Abiding is to enter into Christ to be WHERE He is. But I've already stated that.

 

[gadar perets]

This is not abiding in Him....to not renounce? It is as I thought. You see abiding as holding a certain doctrinal stance....not a walk in a supernatural way.

So the scale is too small.

This is very common nowadays. People think abiding means going at it in one's own effort....while staying true to one's beliefs.

That's not abiding. Abiding is to enter into Christ to be WHERE He is. But I've already stated that.

You have totally distorted what I said. Abiding is NOT to be WHERE he is, but to be IN HIM and he is us. It is a supernatural joining of the believer to the Saviour. It is not a doctrinal stance, but a life giving, nourishing relationship that can be broken off just as a branch can be broken off a vine and wither away.

Now, how about we get back to the trinity instead of this derailing you caused?

 

[APAK]

It is added in error that Jesus is worshipped?
What are you teaching here...?!

If you meant that I said the few places, amyb

I did not add worship. You are not looking at the verse I was referring to. What agenda would I have? To magnify my Lord? To say He is worthy of worship? Is that the agenda that made you so sharp, curt and angry with me? And correct you HOW? You say that when it says the 24 elders fall down before the Lamb and worship Him, that the word was added by mistake. So how will anyone correct you? May God have mercy on your soul is the only response I can think to give to a man who says Jesus is not to be worshipped.

Oh you mean they gave worship to our Lord God in Rev Chapter 4.. big diff indeed...

Yes, worship to the Father NOT Jesus. Totally agree and you did not add in worship here of course.

I thought you were referring to Chapter 5 concerning Jesus after he was worthy to open the scroll and who was NOT worshipped by the 24 elders.

I thought you were trying to tell me he was as your point to convince me that the Father and the son were the same thing and both worshipped.

Well again it just proves my point, Jesus is always subordinate to the Father and never truly worshipped. Only the Father is truly worshipped.

Thanks for correcting the verse you were actually referring to..

It is ALL about God, our Father and not Jesus

(Rev 4:4) And round about the throne were twenty four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty four elders sitting, dressed in white garments, and on their heads were crowns of gold.

(Rev 4:5) And out of the throne proceeded lightnings, voices and thunders. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

(Rev 4:6) And in front of the throne there was as it were a sea of glass like a crystal; and in the midst of the throne and round about the throne, four living creatures full of eyes before and behind.

(Rev 4:7) And the first creature was like a lion, the second creature like a calf, the third creature had the face of a man and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle.

(Rev 4:8) And the four living creatures each had six wings, full of eyes round about and within; and they have no rest day and night, saying: Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.

(Rev 4:9) And when the living creatures shall give glory and honour and thanks to him that sits on the throne, to him that lives for ever and ever,

(Rev 4:10) the twenty four elders shall fall down before him that sits on the throne and shall worship him that lives for ever and ever, and shall cast their crowns before the throne, saying:

(Rev 4:11) Worthy are you, our Lord, to receive the glory and the honour and the power. For you did create all things, and for your sake they existed and were created.



Bless you,



APAK

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You are being ridiculous.
5:14...and the 24 elders fell down and worshipped the Lamb.

Why, if as you say, Jesus is not to be worshipped, do you know this but the 24 elders in heaven do not?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You know what, never mind. I worship my Lord, you do not. I don't want discussion with you. Ill leave you to your teaching agenda and ill go right on worshipping my Lord.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. and he will be called wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

What son is this that people will call Everlasting Father?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Or is that added too?

 

[APAK]

You are being ridiculous.
5:14...and the 24 elders fell down and worshipped the Lamb.

Why, if as you say, Jesus is not to be worshipped, do you know this but the 24 elders in heaven do not?

It is ridiculous having this discussion with you if you do not consider what you are reading and its context. This is so important.

Guess who was present with the Lamb in that verse you chose verse 14. Of course, God Almighty with his Son. Guess who is truly worshipped as I’ve been saying all along. The Father. Now its not my fault that the Son is also in his presence when the elders worshipped our God.

You know there was ample places to say Jesus (Lamb) is worshipped and there is only silence. Just look a few verses back. The angels don’t say that the lamb is to be worshipped.

(Rev 5:11) And I looked, and I heard a voice of many angels round about the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.

(Rev 5:12) They were saying with a great voice: WORTHY is the Lamb that has been slain to receive the power, riches, wisdom, might, honour, glory and blessing. NO worship of the Lamb here…..

(Rev 5:13) And I heard every created thing in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying: To Him who sits on the throne (I added in for emphasis: this means God his Father) AND to the Lamb, be blessing, honour, glory and might, for ever and ever. NO worship of the Lamb here…..

(Rev 5:14) And the four living creatures said: Amen. And the elders fell down and worshiped. (God Almighty, not the Lamb)


Bless you,



APAK

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And Jesus said:I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I Am.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And John says about Jesus, the Lamb, the Word, that He was in the beginning with God and that He was God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And one of the disciples called Jesus, my Lord and my God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You do not know what you are saying. You don't know the word. You don't know why they sought to kill Jesus.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I spoke very roughly to Apak. Post removed and replaced with an apology for my manner of speech to him.