The Problem With The Trinity

[bbyrd009]

In the OT men had to sanctify themselves...and be clean according to the law...eating only what was according to the law.

ah, which Commandment is that

Do we enter into the miraculous life and works of Christ by the law? Or by faith?

you def will not be breaking any Commandments imo, the minimum standards.
and to compound the sin by teaching it, yikes

Rather...you don't understand the power of His life. Sin is not possible when we abide in Christ.

ha, everyone is an Enoch now lol, "i can't possibly sin bc i said i love Jesus."

But you can try following the law all day long...and still sin through the weakness of the flesh.

yes, so bam just don't bother even trying to follow the law

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Gadar, I have noted in the past that when someone calls the Holy Spirit "it", they have not met the Spirit yet.

Would you be willing to think about the possibility that maybe you have not met Him yet? That there is something more for you here on earth? And that if you ask, as Jesus said, you will receive?

I'm not saying admit that I am right. I am asking you to admit the possibility that there is something you are still missing/ lacking.

 

[Episkopos]

ah, which Commandment is that
you def will not be breaking any Commandments imo, the minimum standards.
and to compound the sin by teaching it, yikes
ha, everyone is an Enoch now lol, "i can't possibly sin bc i said i love Jesus."
yes, so bam just don't bother even trying to follow the law

The whole law is to fear God and keep His commandments. But the purpose of grace is to be in relationship with the living God.

 

[bbyrd009]

The whole law is to fear God and keep His commandments. But the purpose of grace is to be in relationship with the living God.

i'm not disagreeing, but the Decalogue remain the minimum standards even under grace, the decalogue is grace-based, and we are told in many places to obey the law, even if those who write them do not, even after we come to think of ourselves as "saved," in at least one instance. Many places. I could even Quote a direct warning about teaching others to break the law, what happens to those ppl. And i am a full-on anarchist, ok, fwiw

 

[Episkopos]

i'm not disagreeing, but the Decalogue remain the minimum standards even under grace, the decalogue is grace-based, and we are told in many places to obey the law, even if those who write them do not, even after we come to think of ourselves as "saved," in at least one instance. Many places. I could even Quote a direct warning about teaching others to break the law, what happens to those ppl. And i am a full-on anarchist, ok, fwiw

And Jesus said that the whole law was fulfilled by 2 commandments...loving God and loving others. The first is according to holiness (leading to a higher righteousness) and the second according to righteousness.

But the minimum standard is to love others as yourself. Holiness is by calling and equipping by grace. But everyone will be judged by how they treated others.

 

[gadar perets]

gadar perets said: ↑
There are two Lords (YHWH and Yeshua).

That is not what the Bible teaches (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6).

There is only one Lord, even our Lord Jesus Christ (Jude 1:3-4).

There is one Lord Jesus Christ; and He is YHWH (Mark 12:29, Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

But I expect you to never look up the verses and to continue spouting your false doctrine in spite of what they say.

What I wrote is exactly what the Bible teaches. It is your interpretation of the verses you quoted above that the Bible does NOT teach.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
John 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
​

You want YHWH and Yeshua (the Father and the Son) to be one Lord (one and the same person), yet the above passage shows they are two.
If you want to teach that Yeshua is YHWH, then you must also teach that the Son is his own Father and the Father became His own Son. That is a false teaching (Psalms 2:7).

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Messiah Yeshua;
​

You harp on Ephesians 4:5 to show the Father and the Son are the same Lord. By extension, you must also believe they are the same God (verse 6), but the verse above shows the Son is not that one God. He is the person mediating between the only true God and man.

BTW, I read every reference you cite. Do you ever read mine?

 

[gadar perets]

Again...what is the meaning of any of this? What do you mean by remain? Hold to your opinion? What do you mean by power? Your own strength but in a religious sense? Anybody can adapt a lingo into a very human observance...and say...see I'm doing it.

I gave you a lexical definition of abide (remain, stay). It means to continue living in Yeshua and he in us. What is your definition of abide?

 

[justbyfaith]

i'm not disagreeing, but the Decalogue remain the minimum standards even under grace, the decalogue is grace-based, and we are told in many places to obey the law, even if those who write them do not, even after we come to think of ourselves as "saved," in at least one instance. Many places. I could even Quote a direct warning about teaching others to break the law, what happens to those ppl. And i am a full-on anarchist, ok, fwiw

I hope that changes. Bc I don't think there are any anarchists in heaven.

 

[Episkopos]

I gave you a lexical definition of abide (remain, stay). It means to continue living in Yeshua and he in us. What is your definition of abide?

To actually enter into Zion....a spiritual realm....where one sees where Jesus lives. It is slightly out of focus because of our human senses. But as we fix our eyes on the kingdom...this world goes out of focus...so that we are no longer drawn to it.

THAT is abiding in Christ. Walking EXACTLY as Jesus walked. Walking in 2 dimensions at the same time.

 

[justbyfaith]

What I wrote is exactly what the Bible teaches. It is your interpretation of the verses you quoted above that the Bible does NOT teach.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
John 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
​

You want YHWH and Yeshua (the Father and the Son) to be one Lord (one and the same person), yet the above passage shows they are two.
If you want to teach that Yeshua is YHWH, then you must also teach that the Son is his own Father and the Father became His own Son. That is a false teaching (Psalms 2:7).

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Messiah Yeshua;
​

You harp on Ephesians 4:5 to show the Father and the Son are the same Lord. By extension, you must also believe they are the same God (verse 6), but the verse above shows the Son is not that one God. He is the person mediating between the only true God and man.

BTW, I read every reference you cite. Do you ever read mine?

Yes, I do indeed read everything you reference.

Now you said that there are two Lords, but the Bible says there is one Lord.

How do you account for this contradiction in your thinking? Either you are misinterpreting what the Bible says, or else you are interpreting something wrong....

I am going to do a google search on the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed shortly, and I suggest you do the same.

Because if that is on google (and I believe it should be, even if google is given over wholly to the world), understanding these creeds should help you to see what Christians believe about the doctrine of the Trinity.

A key verse for you to consider, also, is Isaiah 55:6-13, esp. vs.8-9. If we could comprehend the God we serve, we might even be Him. But we are not. We are finite and He is infinite. That means that some of the things that pertain to Him exist outside of the four dimensions that we live in. In the Bible Codes in Genesis chapter 1 certain Bible scholars who are aware of it will tell you that it speaks of ten dimensions of which time is only the fourth. That means that there are six dimensions above time that we have no comprehension of as human beings. Do you not think that within those dimensions, of which God is the creator and is therefore transcendent above all of them, that God could somehow be three-in-one. I have in times past seen it as an eternal mirror created by God the Father (from the fifth or sixth dimension, so to speak, so that it is not bound by time) and the Person on the other side is the same Person as on the originating side but that He has a consciousness of His own. A created mirror that always was and always will be. Can you think outside the box?

 

[justbyfaith]

Here is the Athanasian Creed:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

 

[justbyfaith]

Here is the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God,] Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth]; by whom all things were made;
Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sittethon the right hand of the Father;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead. ;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Ghost. And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.
In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
[But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'— they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]
The differences between the actual wordings (in Greek) adopted in 325[34] and in 381[35] can be presented in a similar way, as follows:


First Council of Nicaea (325) First Council of Constantinople (381)
Πιστεύομεν εἰς ἕνα Θεὸν Πατέρα παντοκράτορα, πάντων ὁρατῶν τε και ἀοράτων ποιητήν. Πιστεύομεν εἰς ἕνα Θεὸν Πατέρα παντοκράτορα, ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς, ὁρατῶν τε πάντων καὶ ἀοράτων.
Πιστεύομεν εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ, γεννηθέντα ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς [μονογενῆ, τοὐτέστιν ἐκ τῆς οὐσίας τοῦ Πατρός, Θεὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ,] φῶς ἐκ φωτός, θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ, γεννηθέντα, οὐ ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί Καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ, τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων, φῶς ἐκ φωτός, Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ, γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί·
δι' οὗ τὰ πάντα ἐγένετο, [τά τε ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς] δι' οὗ τὰ πάντα ἐγένετο·
τὸν δι' ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους καὶ διὰ τὴν ἡμετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθόντα καὶ σαρκωθέντα καὶ ἐνανθρωπήσαντα, τὸν δι' ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους καὶ διὰ τὴν ἡμετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθόντα ἐκ τῶν οὐρανῶν καὶ σαρκωθέντα ἐκ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου καὶ Μαρίας τῆς παρθένου καὶ ἐνανθρωπήσαντα,
παθόντα, καὶ ἀναστάντα τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ, καὶ ἀνελθόντα εἰς τοὺς οὐρανούς,
σταυρωθέντα τε ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου, καὶ παθόντα καὶ ταφέντα, καὶ ἀναστάντα τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρα κατὰ τὰς γραφάς, καὶ ἀνελθόντα εἰς τοὺς οὐρανούς, καὶ καθεζόμενον ἐκ δεξιῶν τοῦ Πατρός,

καὶ ἐρχόμενον κρῖναι ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς. καὶ πάλιν ἐρχόμενον μετὰ δόξης κρῖναι ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς·
οὗ τῆς βασιλείας οὐκ ἔσται τέλος.
Καὶ εἰς τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα. Καὶ εἰς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον, τὸ Κύριον, τὸ ζῳοποιόν, τὸ ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς ἐκπορευόμενον, τὸ σὺν Πατρὶ καὶ Υἱῷ συμπροσκυνούμενον καὶ συνδοξαζόμενον, τὸ λαλῆσαν διὰ τῶν προφητῶν. Εἰς μίαν, ἁγίαν, καθολικὴν καὶ ἀποστολικὴν Ἐκκλησίαν· ὁμολογοῦμεν ἓν βάπτισμα εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν· προσδοκοῦμεν ἀνάστασιν νεκρῶν, καὶ ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος. Ἀμήν.
[Τοὺς δὲ λέγοντας, Ἦν ποτε ὅτε οὐκ ἦν, καὶ Πρὶν γεννηθῆναι οὐκ ἦν, καὶ ὅτι Ἐξ οὐκ ὄντων εγένετο, ἢ Ἐξ ἑτέρας ὑποστάσεως ἢ οὐσιάς φάσκοντας εἶναι, ἢ κτιστόν, ἢ τρεπτόν, ἢ ἀλλοιωτὸν τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ, τούτους ἀναθεματίζει ἡ ἁγία καθολικὴ καὶ ἀποστολικὴ ἐκκλησία].

 

[justbyfaith]

The only place where I differ from any of these creeds is that I know that in Romans 1:3 it declares that in His humanity Jesus was indeed made of the seed of David according to the flesh; but that however in this He is Jehovah God (Isaiah 45:11); and therefore in His Deity He is one with the Father.

 

[bbyrd009]

I hope that changes. Bc I don't think there are any anarchists in heaven.

i think we are prolly disagreeing on the definition of Anarchist (and for sure heaven)
1 Samuel 8 defines anarchy, dictionaries and governments purposely conflate it with Chaos
Amish, Mennonites, these are Anarchist nations

 

[bbyrd009]

 

[bbyrd009]

And Jesus said that the whole law was fulfilled by 2 commandments...loving God and loving others.

Jesus also said not one jot or tittle too ok, and some other pretty pertinent stuff here i guess,
17“Don’t assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.v
18For•I assure you: Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letterw or one stroke of a letter will passfrom the law until all things are accomplished.
19Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of thesecommands and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever practicesand teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.x
20For I tell you, unless yourrighteousness surpasses that of the •scribes and •Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

which i'm pretty sure is nowhen near where jbf thinks it is; at least i can't find that heaven in the Book anywhere

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus also said not one jot or tittle too ok, and some other pretty pertinent stuff here i guess,
17“Don’t assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.v
18For•I assure you: Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letterw or one stroke of a letter will passfrom the law until all things are accomplished.
19Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of thesecommands and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever practicesand teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.x
20For I tell you, unless yourrighteousness surpasses that of the •scribes and •Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

The rest is details...although those details become very important at the appropriate times.

But you have to see the big picture to get the details right. So then the details are there...hidden in the narrative...to be found by those who seek for hidden treasure.

The big picture acts as a map....and the details are the treasure.

 

[bbyrd009]

God, i sure hope no one perceives me as a teacher

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Jesus also said not one jot or tittle too ok, and some other pretty pertinent stuff here i guess,
17“Don’t assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.v
18For•I assure you: Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letterw or one stroke of a letter will passfrom the law until all things are accomplished.
19Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of thesecommands and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever practicesand teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.x
20For I tell you, unless yourrighteousness surpasses that of the •scribes and •Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

which i'm pretty sure is nowhen near where jbf thinks it is; at least i can't find that heaven in the Book anywhere

and is a man practicing and teaching the commands if he says, don't murder, thinking anger in the heart is not murder? If he teaches that obeying the Sabbath rest is by the letter but thinks worrying about money is not a breaking of the Sabbath rest? How has his righteousness exceeded the righteousness of a pharisee? Isn't he doin g and teaching exactly as they did?

 

[justbyfaith]

View attachment 4250

Okay I'm glad for your sake that that is clarified.